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[cachx]

Every line is slightly tweaked to fit each character's personality, unless is really simple line.

[Fiery Phoenix]

Let's not forget this one sidequest from ME1 with the hostage, which if you bring Kaidan with you, you won't have to persuade the bad guy as Kaidan will do it for you and save the hostage (since it relates to L2 biotics and whatnot, which Kaidan is one).

[Nightwriter]

cachx wrote...

Every line is slightly tweaked to fit each character's personality, unless is really simple line.

Lol. Even the "hidden dialogue" is just the same sentence, said twelve different ways?

[Tasha vas Nar Rayya]

There is party banter in ME2. Not nearly as much as DA but it's there. I know the Garrus banter cuz I take him everywhere.
So here are examples of party banter for ONE character.
There is also Tali and Garrus banter, Garrus and hospital talk, the cover talk with Garrus, geth colossus = definately like old times! If VS is not romanced and Shepard picks the non-Cerberus loving options then Kaidan will say: 'You too Garrus.' Then Garrus will say that Kaidan is too emotional. Of course there is all the dialogue during Garrus' RM and LM. His banter with Grunt during Mordin's RM. His cutting remark against Miranda before the suicide mission (and nodding in agreement to Jack.) Garrus commenting about how impressive Thane's skills are on his RM. When Mordin expresses his surprise at Garrus 'working for Cerberus' after healing him from the plague. Thane and Garrus when entering the Citadel.
And that is just off the top of the head for one character. Yeah, it isn't as much as Dragon Age but it's there. Their character development was awesome. I suddenly thought Tali was ace in ME2 from when I first reunited with her at the beginning, whereas her character wasn't developed as much in ME1 for example because it focussed more on the plot. ME1 had a great storyline, true. But as Casey said, the characters ARE the story line. And I say that Bioware did a fantastic job!!
There is a lot of non-generic dialogue. You just have to look for it and listen out for it.
Please, if you go on BSN, then don't bash Bioware. Because YOU ARE OUTNUMBERED! As is expected on Bioware forums

[cachx]

Nightwriter wrote...

cachx wrote...
Every line is slightly tweaked to fit each character's personality, unless is a really simple line.

Lol. Even the "hidden dialogue" is just the same sentence, said twelve different ways?

It ain't really "hidden". How should be done to be right?
I admit I miss Wrex lines like "I WILL EAT YOU!":lol:.

[Aeowyn]

Tasha vas Nar Rayya wrote...

There is party banter in ME2. Not nearly as much as DA but it's there. I know the Garrus banter cuz I take him everywhere.
So here are examples of party banter for ONE character.
There is also Tali and Garrus banter, Garrus and hospital talk, the cover talk with Garrus,

geth colossus = definately like old times! < Remove the old times part and this is commented on by every squaddie.

If VS is not romanced and Shepard picks the non-Cerberus loving options then Kaidan will say: 'You too Garrus.' Then Garrus will say that Kaidan is too emotional. Of course there is all the dialogue during Garrus' RM and LM. His banter with Grunt during Mordin's RM.

His cutting remark against Miranda before the suicide mission (and nodding in agreement to Jack.) < Can't really call that squad banter

Garrus commenting about how impressive Thane's skills are on his RM. When Mordin expresses his surprise at Garrus 'working for Cerberus' after healing him from the plague. Thane and Garrus when entering the Citadel.
And that is just off the top of the head for one character.

Yeah, it isn't as much as Dragon Age but it's there. Their character development was awesome. I suddenly thought Tali was ace in ME2 from when I first reunited with her at the beginning, whereas her character wasn't developed as much in ME1 for example because it focussed more on the plot. ME1 had a great storyline, true. But as Casey said, the characters ARE the story line. And I say that Bioware did a fantastic job!!
There is a lot of non-generic dialogue. You just have to look for it and listen out for it.
Please, if you go on BSN, then don't bash Bioware. Because YOU ARE OUTNUMBERED! As is expected on Bioware forums

And there are people who disagree with you which is why we're discussing it here. As far as I know, nobody is actually bashing BioWare in this thread. It's a discussion forum.

Modifié par Aeowyn, 11 janvier 2011 - 06:19 .

[Nightwriter]

Tasha vas Nar Rayya wrote...

There is party banter in ME2. Not nearly as much as DA but it's there. I know the Garrus banter cuz I take him everywhere.
So here are examples of party banter for ONE character.
There is also Tali and Garrus banter, Garrus and hospital talk, the cover talk with Garrus, geth colossus = definately like old times! If VS is not romanced and Shepard picks the non-Cerberus loving options then Kaidan will say: 'You too Garrus.' Then Garrus will say that Kaidan is too emotional. Of course there is all the dialogue during Garrus' RM and LM. His banter with Grunt during Mordin's RM. His cutting remark against Miranda before the suicide mission (and nodding in agreement to Jack.) Garrus commenting about how impressive Thane's skills are on his RM. When Mordin expresses his surprise at Garrus 'working for Cerberus' after healing him from the plague. Thane and Garrus when entering the Citadel.
And that is just off the top of the head for one character. Yeah, it isn't as much as Dragon Age but it's there. Their character development was awesome. I suddenly thought Tali was ace in ME2 from when I first reunited with her at the beginning, whereas her character wasn't developed as much in ME1 for example because it focussed more on the plot. ME1 had a great storyline, true. But as Casey said, the characters ARE the story line. And I say that Bioware did a fantastic job!!
There is a lot of non-generic dialogue. You just have to look for it and listen out for it.
Please, if you go on BSN, then don't bash Bioware. Because YOU ARE OUTNUMBERED! As is expected on Bioware forums

I thought they did wonders with Tali's character in ME2 also.

Sigh. I'm really getting tired of the "bashing BioWare" thing. Can't we point out things that felt lacking in our game without being accused of bashing BioWare? Is there anyone else out there as weary as I am about this? You try to be civil, make well thought out arguments, but if it's against the game in any way they jump the gun on you, and it seems like nothing you say makes any difference.

Now, just to bring a touch of reality to your list... everything you mentioned amounts to little over a few dozen lines of dialogue, if that.

To put that in perspective, I should say that a fair sized package of character dialogue comprises hundreds of lines of dialogue minimum.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 11 janvier 2011 - 06:25 .

[Bamboozalist]

Nightwriter wrote...

Squad dialogue is Sten saying the dwarf Chantry priest in Orzammar is a follower of a false religion. Squad dialogue is Ashley telling Charles Saracino to shut his piehole because he wasn't at Shanxi. Squad dialogue is Morrigan declaring that the priests of the Circle are getting what they deserve for allowing their freedom to be taken from them.

All of those happen in a CUTSCENE. I was refering to the out of cut scene dialouge that Aeowyn was saying Shepard doesn't respond to, which Shepard doesn't because unless the player is allowed to chose the response Shepard's dialogue can't be more than simple neutral one word answers.

@Aeowyn. Even the most basic line of generic dialogue is rarely said the same way by two different characters.

[Bamboozalist]

Nightwriter wrote...

To put that in perspective, I should say that a fair sized package of character dialogue comprises hundreds of lines of dialogue minimum.

If you add up each characters dialogue in ME2 it adds up to several hundred lines of dialogue for each character. Like I said, people must have been jamming the space bar and X button all through out ME2 because there is tons of squad banter, especially compared to ME1 which which had very little unique banter, most times it was Party member 1 saying generic line A the exact same way every time (ME2 had even the most generic line said different ways by different people) and party member 2 givivng generic line B as a response. Even counting ME1's elevator conversations ME2 had substantially more squad dialogue.

[Tasha vas Nar Rayya]

I was reading some of the earlier posts and there was a bit of criticism for Bioware not having a good storyline in ME2 or no character development in ME1.



I wasn't aiming the bashing Bioware thing at you, but I do read posts that are very critical of their actions or expect too much. Don't be insulted by it. I was merely pointing out that as a game, Mass effect 1 and 2 are awesome. Awesome characters and storyline. Of course you can point out flaws and areas to improve on. That's constructive criticism right there.



And my list comprised of lines of banter that was unique to one character. So yeah, it would only have a dozen lines. But it is quite a few examples of party banter for one character. Especially considering each squaddie has their own recruitment and loyalty missions, and then all the conversations in the Normandy which I didn't add because I was just using party banter.



I agree that Tali's character wasn't fleshed out until ME2. Neither was Liara's in my opinion.

I didn't mean to offend anyone. Peace out and all that!

[Nightwriter]

Bamboozalist wrote...

All of those happen in a CUTSCENE. I was refering to the out of cut
scene dialouge that Aeowyn was saying Shepard doesn't respond to, which
Shepard doesn't because unless the player is allowed to chose the
response Shepard's dialogue can't be more than simple neutral one word
answers.

*Shrug*. Then just replace those examples with Leliana questioning Morrigan about her belief in the Maker, Alistair asking Wynne if she had any children, and Wrex asking Garrus who would win in a fight between Garrus and Shepard.

Er... sorry. Don't mean to be annoying. Just a big fan of character dialogue. Heh heh...

Modifié par Nightwriter, 11 janvier 2011 - 06:45 .

[Bamboozalist]

Nightwriter wrote...

Lol. Even the "hidden dialogue" is just the same sentence, said twelve different ways?

One, it's not hidden that always happens, the only "Hidden" part is that Tali, Legion, Thane and Samara shouldn't be there in a normal game. Two, what is it supposed to be? It's each characters take on the situation, thats what all banter is. In ME1 that line would have been exactly the same for each squadmate except for maybe Wrex.

*Shrug*. Then just replace those examples with Leliana questioning Morrigan about her belief in the Maker, Alistair asking Wynne if she had any children, and Wrex asking Garrus who would win in a fight between
Garrus and Shepard.

Okay, so then you have Grunt and whoever talking about the burning corpses at the beginning of Mordin's recruitment mission. I would respond to the DA ones but I'm not trying to argue that ME2 had as good of squad on squad interaction than DA, it didn't, I'm arguing that there was tons of squad dialogue in ME2 and more than in ME1. Especially since ME1 locked 90% of its squad on squad conversations to only the Citadel elevators, which most of the time it's over ridden by news broadcasts, and not every elevator in the game.

Edit: fixed stupid copy and paste not tracking word wrap.

Modifié par Bamboozalist, 11 janvier 2011 - 06:50 .

[cachx]

Nightwriter wrote...
Now, just to bring a touch of reality to your list... everything you mentioned amounts to little over a few dozen lines of dialogue, if that.
To put that in perspective, I should say that a fair sized package of character dialogue comprises hundreds of lines of dialogue minimum.

I believe that the ME wiki keeps a "unique dialogue" section for each character, ME2 tends to be much larger than ME1.

You know, I was about to go on a "How come "dissenters" (to not use the word "haters") , think quantity is uninportant/important only when it suits their arguments?" rant, but I managed to stop myself.

If it's worth anything I don't think you're a basher, Night.

Modifié par cachx, 11 janvier 2011 - 06:50 .

[Bamboozalist]

cachx wrote...

I believe that the ME wiki keeps a "unique dialogue" section for each character, ME2 tends to be much larger than ME1.

To put this in perspective the ME1 section of Garrus' unique dialogue takes up MAYBE 1/5th of the page with ME2 taking up the rest.

[Nightwriter]

Bamboozalist wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

To put that in perspective, I should say that a fair sized package of character dialogue comprises hundreds of lines of dialogue minimum.

If you add up each characters dialogue in ME2 it adds up to several hundred lines of dialogue for each character. Like I said, people must have been jamming the space bar and X button all through out ME2 because there is tons of squad banter, especially compared to ME1 which which had very little unique banter, most times it was Party member 1 saying generic line A the exact same way every time (ME2 had even the most generic line said different ways by different people) and party member 2 givivng generic line B as a response. Even counting ME1's elevator conversations ME2 had substantially more squad dialogue.

Yes... several hundred lines of dialogue between Shepard and that character. Which is not what we're talking about.

In addition, if nothing gets said in that dialogue... it doesn't really mean much, does it? We want dialogue that explores each character, not dialogue that merely makes practical observations.

Bamboozalist, I'm really trying my hardest here to see where you're coming from, but there's just no way you can say ME1 had less squad banter than ME2. It had very little, and much of it was disappointingly generic, but it had more than ME2, which had no regular party banter at all, only scattered lines between what seemed like passing strangers. They never said anything meaningful to each other, they never became aware of each other as individuals.

No one who is complaining about lack of squad banter skipped through any dialogue, trust me. There is simply very, very little inter character dialogue in the game. If someone says "there was no inter character dialogue" they just mean there was very little, so little that saying there was none feels like an appropriate emotional expression.

[Bamboozalist]

Nightwriter wrote...

In addition, if nothing gets said in that dialogue... it doesn't really mean much, does it? We want dialogue that explores each character, not dialogue that merely makes practical observations.

Bamboozalist, I'm really trying my hardest here to see where you're coming from, but there's just no way you can say ME1 had less squad banter than ME2. It had very little, and much of it was disappointingly generic, but it had more than ME2, which had no regular party banter at all, only scattered lines between what seemed like passing strangers. They never said anything meaningful to each other, they never became aware of each other as individuals.

No one who is complaining about lack of squad banter skipped through any dialogue, trust me. There is simply very, very little inter character dialogue in the game. If someone says "there was no inter character dialogue" they just mean there was very little, so little that saying there was none feels like an appropriate emotional expression.

You never specifically said, squad to squad dialogue, this entire conversation has been about "banter", which there is tons of in ME2.

If you're talking about real meaningful conversations between squadmates, then ME1 didn't have that either, Dragon Age did, but not ME1. Elevator conversations didn't contain any meaninful character interaction between characters. There was no growth, there was just two people talking about random BS, that never went anywhere. Dragon Age had characters meaningfully banter, in that yes it was them teasing each other but it was about actual crap and the longer their conversations went on they built upon each other. Mass Effect on the other hand hasn't had an actual squad on squad interaction that lasted for longer than 3-5 lines of dialogue.

[Aeowyn]

Go back a few pages. The initial conversation was about squad members who didn't speak up if something happened that they didn't agree with. Like bringing Samara to Zaeed's LM and letting the refinery burn. Or bringing Grunt to Mordin's LM. Mass Effect 1 didn't have much of that either, but it did exist, such as bringing Kaidan to the Biotics holding Chairman Burns hostage, Wrex really speaks up if you let the Rachni go free etc.

[ZLurps]

Hmm... When I think of my experience with ME2, there was one mission where I missed uh... inter NPC dialogue and that was LotSB. I think it would had added something if there were been some dialogue between Liara and at least old squad mates from ME.

Then, they were needed to bring Garrus (and Tali) voice actors back in studio to do those lines so I can understand why it didn't happened.

[Nightwriter]

Ahhh, I see, Bamb. We use "banter" to mean inter squad banter so much I just took it as a given.

Well, I agree. ME1's squad banter was lacking. But my point is that it had banter. I thought ME2 would go forward; it went backward.

Tasha vas Nar Rayya wrote...
I didn't mean to offend anyone. Peace out and all that!

It's all cool. Raw nerve of mine.

I am never able to do this:

cachx wrote...

You know, I was about to go on a "How come "dissenters" (to not use the word "haters") , think quantity is uninportant/important only when it suits their arguments?" rant, but I managed to stop myself.

And inevitably someone must calm me down by saying this:

cachx wrote...

If it's worth anything I don't think you're a basher, Night.

And make me some chicken noodle soup and drape an afghan over my shoulders and tell me to play with legos until I feel better.

[Bamboozalist]

Aeowyn wrote...

Go back a few pages. The initial conversation was about squad members who didn't speak up if something happened that they didn't agree with. Like bringing Samara to Zaeed's LM and letting the refinery burn. Or bringing Grunt to Mordin's LM. Mass Effect 1 didn't have much of that either, but it did exist, such as bringing Kaidan to the Biotics holding Chairman Burns hostage, Wrex really speaks up if you let the Rachni go free etc.

My bad, I must have missed that. I just saw the words "Squad dialouge" and "Squad banter" nothing saying we're talking exclusively about squad on squad conversations.

ME1 had 1 side quest where each of the 6 party members had something specific to say about it, ME2 had stuff like Zaeed taking a personal disgust in Jacob's father's actions. Wrex speaking up about the Rachni does not count at all though, that is a scripted event that is one of ME1's biggest problems. Any choice in a plot world mission will ALWAYS have 1 person for it and one person against it, in fact if you go in and remove the other squadmate the same squadmate will do a complete bi-polar and make an argument for both sides (go look up Bi-polar Tali). Yes I agree that Grunt and Samara should have crap to say.

Edit: Zaeed's loyalty mission has some what of an excuse in that it's DLC and for some reason DLC tends to get left out when it comes to Squad dialouge, even LoTSB, Garrus should have had tons of crap to say.

Modifié par Bamboozalist, 11 janvier 2011 - 07:33 .

[Aigyl]

Nightwriter wrote...
Garrus's dialogue always supercedes Miranda's in my playthroughs.

To me squad dialogue is far from a bonus I could live without; rather, it is a necessity. If squadmates don't talk when they should, it breaks my ability to be immersed in what I perceive as a real universe. It pushes me out of my game.

Also, what recruitment missions were squaddies noisy in? I found that they were relatively quiet during loyalty missions, and when they did speak up, it was always to say the same generic thing or give the same general advice/comment.

That's odd, for me Ashley pointed out Garrus but he stayed silent while Miranda talked

For squadmates making noise there was occasionally some unique dialogue:

-Grunt and Zaeed have interesting dialogue with the merc bosses on the Archangel mission.
-Miranda nearly has a fit at the end of Purgatory after Jack demands Cerberus files.
-Bring a non-human to Mordin's recruitment and they'll start to get sick, Mordin'll cure them when you reach him.
-Garrus has stuff to say at the lift in Thane's mission as has already been said.
-Garrus also has an amusing chat with Shepard when you enter the hospital on Mordin's loyalty.

That's the unique dialogue in recruitment missions off the top of my head. Other than that there were often interesting twists on the generic dialogue. For example you'll always get a comment on the Collossus at the end of Tali's mission, or when you pass the prisoner being tortured on Purgatory, but it's often quite a different comment depending on who says it. For example:

*send Biotic God off for a nap*

Kasumi: Aw, can we keep him?


*meeting the Collossus*

Garrus: Just like old times, Shepard!


Usually on loyalty missions, yeah they are quiet, no getting out of that one. For me that's not really a major issue, but I covered that before. I guess I'm just usually hooked into the sub-plot and most of my attention is on the squadmate I'm doing the mission for. I recall Zaeed was interesting on Jacob's loyalty, and both Samara and Jack piped up a lot on Legion's loyalty.

If Bioware chooses to pump more resources into squad dialogue for ME3 I certainly won't be complaining, characters are the stuff Bioware does best. For me more would be nice, but as far as ME2 goes I'm generally happy with the squad banter but for a few exceptions (Grunt not having a single line of dialogue in Mordin's loyalty, ME1 Squadmate cameos).

[cachx]

Aigyl wrote...
Usually on loyalty missions, yeah they are quiet, no getting out of that one. For me that's not really a major issue, but I covered that before.

I agree with most of your post. The thing is, that for some people IT IS really a major issue. Hence we will never fully agree.

[Aigyl]

cachx wrote...
I agree with most of your post. The thing is, that for some people IT IS really a major issue. Hence we will never fully agree.

Indeedy, agreeing to disagree is likely the best way to go

Or poking each other with sticks, I haven't decided yet.

Modifié par Aigyl, 11 janvier 2011 - 08:34 .

[Nightwriter]

I am for agreeing to disagree, myself.

That's odd, for me Ashley pointed out Garrus but he stayed silent while Miranda talked ../../../images/forum/emoticons/wondering.png

Ah, I thought you meant the dialogue where one of your squaddies comforts you when you say "I'm sorry I couldn't save them."

When I take Garrus and Miranda, Garrus is the one who speaks up.

[Xeranx]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

I am in agreement with all of this also. I'm guessing they didn't include Shepard having nightmares about the beacon visions and such because that would give too much attention to ME1? They really seemed to want to sever the ME2 Shepard from the ME1 Shepard.

You know what would have been an excellent occassion to put in a nightmare scene which could also reflect back on ME1?

Right before Shepard wakes up on Lazarus station.

Not just the prothean flashback, but intermingled with the critical story elements of ME1: in between the scenes and sounds of synthetic horror, flashes, voice-clips, telling images reflecting the ME1 game choices: glimpse of the beacon to start, flashes of the teammates, a image/sound clip appropriate to the Wrex Virmire decision, a piece on the Virmire-death, culminating in the climax of Saren, the Council decision, Sovereign, and the whole end of the Beacon vision. Everything mixed in, chaotic, jumbled. Context for those who haven't played, familiarization for those who have.

And then Shepard is woken up by Miranda.

Just wanted to say that this would have done so much more than that comic will ever hope to accomplish.