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[Nightwriter]

miro42 wrote...

I'm sure everything I'll say has been covered in this long thread but I want to throw my two cents in as well.
ME1 didn't have a weak plot, it just had a generic one. It was the unraveling of that plot that made it so interesting and wonderful. Look at the beloved Star Wars. It was boy dreams of being a knight. He becomes a knight to go save the princess. Then he has to slay the dragon. Very basic fantasy but it was told very well, just like ME1.
The problem I see with ME2 is that while it had an interesting plot, it was not only developed in an uninteresting way, it didn't have the epic feel that ME1 had. In ME1 you save the council races (whether you saved the council or not) but then in ME2 you're only saving the human race? And you're forced to work with Cerberus? If I were Shepard I'd have had Joker disable EDI somehow and just jetted. Then I would have gone and found my lost companions and recruited them, cause they kicked total arse. Not that the new crew isn't cool, but I found myself mostly playing with Tali and Garrus, because I felt more comfortable with them. Also, less is more, especially when it comes to the amount of characters. If I had never played an RPG before maybe I might have lost some of my crew but I never felt Shepard or the crew was ever in any danger of dying. Maybe if BioWare hadn't stressed that you could lose some crew I might have not payed as much attention to beefing them up and then felt some connection when someone died.
Regardless, I'll play ME3 but I'm not holding out much hope for the greatness that was the original Mass Effect.

miro, I totally agree. Especially to the underlined part. Though I tended to like the ME2 characters more.

The threat in ME2 felt smaller and less significant. Again, I wonder what caused the difference in feel, because it's not like the whole galaxy was watching you take down Saren either. The Council wanted to keep the whole thing under wraps and the mission was kind of low key, just like ME2's.

[Encarmine]

We must not forget,



The Two Towers was not as Epic as The Return of the King



The Empire Strikes Back was not as epic as The Return of the Jedi



The Burning Crusade was not as good as The Wrath of the Lich King



the middle man, is always a tad meh in story terms, otherwise how can they do better in number 3?

[miro42]

Nightwriter wrote...


miro, I totally agree. Especially to the underlined part. Though I tended to like the ME2 characters more.

The
threat in ME2 felt smaller and less significant. Again, I wonder what
caused the difference in feel, because it's not like the whole galaxy
was watching you take down Saren either. The Council wanted to keep the
whole thing under wraps and the mission was kind of low key, just like
ME2's.

I don't really know why either.  Maybe BioWare was just trying to make everyone happy instead of just trying to make a great game?  Or they focused so much on restructuring the mechanics they forgot to really get into the story like they usually do.  And so because their hearts weren't in it to the same degree, we didn't feel it.  That's as good an answer as any, I guess.

Encarmine wrote...

We must not forget,

The Two Towers was not as Epic as The Return of the King

The Empire Strikes Back was not as epic as The Return of the Jedi

The Burning Crusade was not as good as The Wrath of the Lich King

the middle man, is always a tad meh in story terms, otherwise how can they do better in number 3?

The Two Towers and Empire might not have been epic in story terms but they felt epic.  And they both had cliffhangers (Frodo caught by Shelob (in the books) and Han Solo captured) , something I felt was lacking in ME2, because I didn't feel threatened by anything that happened in the entire story.  If the Proto-Reaper had been discovered but escaped Shepards clutches to go destroy Earth, then that would have been an awesome cliffhanger, but you can kill it in four shots and then nothing happens.

I have no comment on Burning Crusade becuase I don't know what that is.  WoW, I pressume?

Modifié par miro42, 13 janvier 2011 - 10:27 .

[Encarmine]

The suicide mission didnt feel epic to you?

[Nightwriter]

I almost feel guilty saying it, but... not really.

RiouHotaru wrote...

And in ME2 we know that the Collectors are on the other side of the Omega-4 Relay and we need a way to get there and good team to back us up.

I'd argue that no investigation of his plan occurs on Virmire, but that's just semantics.  I'm just trying to argue that not everything in ME2 is handed to Shepard on a silver platter as much as Iakus would have people believe.  If Feros and Noveria alone are "investigating" and that ME2 apparently has everything spelled out to you then something about the initial argument is flawed.

I'm willing to hear your arguments and debate this with you. I rather did feel like everything was handed to me. I'm not saying that was everyone's impression, but it was mine, and despite whatever logical arguments you might have for me, the feeling remains. I'm not really sure why. I just felt like the whole plan, the whole story, came about without my participation. It was waiting for me when I got there, and once I arrived they just said "do it". 

Modifié par Nightwriter, 13 janvier 2011 - 10:25 .

[Dionkey]

Encarmine wrote...

We must not forget,

The Two Towers was not as Epic as The Return of the King

The Empire Strikes Back was not as epic as The Return of the Jedi

The Burning Crusade was not as good as The Wrath of the Lich King

the middle man, is always a tad meh in story terms, otherwise how can they do better in number 3?

I agree with 1 and 2, but BC not as good as WOTLK? Sure if you want easier and boring content you could argue that. But I digress, not the point of the conversation. I am sure ME3 will be amazing compared to ME2.

[miro42]

Encarmine wrote...

The suicide mission didnt feel epic to you?

Not one bit.  Maybe because I had done everything possible.  I had the loyalty of all my crew.  I fully upgraded my ship.  There didn't seem to be a rush to get anything done past the relay.  When Soveregin attacked the Citadel that was it.  You fought him or he/it took over.  In ME2 there was only Kelly and Chakwas to save and a bunch of 'red shirts'.  And while I cared for Kelly and Chakwas they give you the option of not going immediately (which is the only way to go get Legion's loyalty), so what was the rush?

[Encarmine]

you people sadden me



ill pray for you tonight under my candle



But how is the suicide mission any less cool than the final fight for the citadel? perhaps as you guys have experianced ME1 climatic ending, like smoking crack, you cant get that original high back no matter how much you smoke? (dont ask!)

[Nightwriter]

I thought the suicide mission was cool aesthetically and thematically. And it was very cinematic. Great music.

Encarmine wrote...

But how is the suicide mission any less cool than the final fight for the citadel?

The build up. The story behind it.

[wulf3n]

Encarmine wrote...
But how is the suicide mission any less cool than the final fight for the citadel?

Fight for the Citadel: The entire galaxy rests in your hands.
Suicide Mission: We're "told" its a suicide mission, but we don't know that, as we have no idea what to expect, its more of a mystery mission than a suicidal one. Plus none of the main characters act as though they're gonna die, there isn't that sense of impending doom, no-one coming to terms with the fact that they're not coming back, sure they each have their own problems to be solved but nothing that was inspired by the fact that they're going to die(with a few exceptions), it really just feels like any other mission.

[miro42]

[quote]elfadelbosco wrote...


[quote]Encarmine wrote...

The suicide mission didnt feel epic to you? [/quote]
  And while I cared for Kelly and Chakwas they give you the option of not going immediately (which is the only way to go get Legion's loyalty), so what was the rush?
[/quote]

wait, this is not true, I had Legion's loyalty and saved Kelly and Chakwas... it depends on what you do first, Legion is the last crew-member you must recruit, because once you have him on board the Normandy, he interacts with IDA and allows the Collectors to 'see' you and attack you, so you have to recruit him and then run for his loyalty mission.
That's what I did and it worked, saved everybody

[/quote]

I too got Legion's loyalty and saved Kelly and Chakwas.  What I'm saying is that because I hadn't had the chance prior to get Legion's loyaly, I knew that the two girls would be safe if I first did Legion's mission, thus I felt no rush to get to my crew immediately.

[Rykoth]

Battle for the Citadel can be beaten in 10 minutes assuming you don't get Krogan Punched to death. Yes it was epic, but like the rest of the game... short.



ME2 isn't a long game either, but it feels alot longer, and alot less tedious. That's the problem with ME1, ME1, whether or not it feels like a "tighter" story, has alot of dull moments. I'd classify Feros as a dull moment. Infact, doing Feros and Noveria, I struggle with those, I'm always yawning in those segments. Virmire is where I start to enjoy ME1 and by then its close to the finish line.

[Terror_K]

That's only because ME1 wasn't afraid to take its time and not rush things too much, like most good classic sci-fi. ME2 is too fast-paced and action-packed, like a modern Hollywood action movie. It needs to sit back and take a breath now and then. It's a style thing, and I happen to prefer ME1's far more because it's better paced. ME2 just rushes things too much.

[Bamboozalist]

Encarmine wrote...
The Empire Strikes Back was not as epic as The Return of the Jedi

The Burning Crusade was not as good as The Wrath of the Lich King

The Empire Strikes Back was the best film of all the Star Wars movies and is widely considered as such, so while it may not be as epic in terms of scale as Return of the Jedi that doesn't make it worse. Wrath of the Lich King was a dumbed down embarrassment that made me quit WoW when the final boss (at the time) was downed with in a week of release.

[Iakus]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Honestly, I don't think it's a bad thing.  With Saren and the Geth there was clear evidence, and Shepard got first-hand experience on the issue via Eden Prime.  The problem lie with convincing the Council of Saren's wrongdoing, not with discovering anything on your own.  Also, beyond the first few hours there's really not much "investigating" that goes on, at least compared to ME2

Combined with Shepard's ressurection, it just made teh game feel like a cheap action piece.  Basically, Shepard "passed through fire and death" to bandy words with a blue-eyed guy in a suit.  And to shoot mercs.  SHep was pretty much extraneous in his own story.  He had no unique insights, special talents, (besides being the protagonist)  Yet billions of credits were invested in him.  This may be more of a problem with the game setup itself than with the plot or characters, but there you go.

I take a bit of offense to this bit.  You CAN select a Paragon statement that questions the validity of his claim, and he tells you, "Just go to Freedom's Progress.  If you don't find anything, then we'll part ways." No part of that insinuates you're taking his claim at face value.  Even if this is a joke, I feel people take the whole "You don't have a choice but to go along with TIM." thing out of context.

No offense intended.  Btu tell me, How does the Illusive Man know the Reapers are involved?  We see no evidence of this before Horizon, where we at elast saw Reaper tech (husks and Dragon's Teeth)  We find out on Freedom's Progress that Collectors are involved.  That's it.  Yet clearly Shepard believes TIM about, well everything TIM says.  Despite knowing what Cerberus has done in the past.

Also, there's a good reason for this.  Without some obvious clue or dead giveaway, you'd be left with...nothing.  The Collectors are enigmatic enough and usually very thurough in their cleaning out colonies.  Without Veetor's videos as a plot device the story wouldn't go ANYWHERE.  Unlike ME1, where you knew what was going on, but you had to convince the third party your claims had merit.  Big difference.

Nothiong, or a stronger central story, as Shepard unravels teh mystery over the course of the game.

...I don't see how this is evidence of anything relating to story weakness.  The Collectors being Protheans was a HUGE development, but you were still on the Collector Ship looking for a way to find strategic information (like the location of their Base), so while the origin revelation was big, it wasn't the intended purpose of your trip.

THe revelation could have been a great suprise, a real game changer.  What what gets done with it?  I haven't found a single response form Shepard that amounts to more than "Well, now we know what we're shooting at"  Mordin has the most to say about it.  One bit of dialogue.

Except that you're allied with Cerberus, and the Council made it dead clear that while you're with Cerberus they can't do anything to help you.  Openly working with known terrorists doesn't exactly do much to inspire unity.  And I'm sure the Alliance would say the same thing.  I find it a bit grating how people bring up this particular point as a plothole when there's very good reasons why you wouldn't go running off to the dudes upstairs with this.  It's why Anderson doesn't tell you about the VS on Horizon.  Is that really so hard to comprehend?

Why doesn't the Council trust Shepard?
Because he's working with Cerberus
Why is Shepard working with Cerberus?
Because the Council doesn't trust him.
Why doesn't the Council trust Shepard?
...

[IrishGunman]

ME1 - A New Specter 
ME2 - The Reapers Strikes Back 
ME3 - Return Of The Specters 

That sums it, Me2 was a middle story, and nobody likes the middle story.

Modifié par IrishGunman, 13 janvier 2011 - 02:53 .

[khevan]

Some of the comments here have kinda cemented something in my head that I've been trying to realize for some time now.

I've always had this vague dissatisfaction with ME2's main plot (not the character stories, but the Collector plotline), but couldn't really put my finger on why. People have commented that ME2's story is fed to them, and this made me realize something. In ME1, it was Shepard who had the visions from the Prothean beacon. It was Shepard who got the Cipher (because of the visions). It was the visions and the Cipher that let Liara recognize Ilos. Shepard's involvement was mandatory because of what he experienced in-game. He's special.

In ME2, I never saw a situation like that. No moments where Shepard figured something out. TIM told Shep where to go, who to get, all of that. I felt none of that same direct connection between Shepard and the story like I did in ME1. It really is like Shepard could have been replaced and the story wouldn't have changed in any substantial way.

If you take the events of ME1 out of the picture, get rid of the idea that Shepard is a "big goddamn hero" and a "symbol" and look at ME2 all by itself, Shepard might as well have not existed. There's nothing there to connect him to the story. Contrast to ME1 where ONLY Shepard could have done the things that had to be done.

This is what I didn't like.

Edit:  Fixing the gorram default formatting...

Modifié par khevan, 13 janvier 2011 - 03:34 .

[Fixers0]

IrishGunman wrote...

ME1 - A New Specter 
ME2 - The Reapers Strikes Back 
ME3 - Return Of The Specters 

That sums it, Me2 was a middle story, and nobody likes the middle story.

No it doesn't, you took a very bad comparison, The Empire strikes back is the higest rated Star Wars Film, Exactly what a second part in a trillogy should be.

[Lewie]

khevan wrote...

Some of the comments here have kinda cemented something in my head that I've been trying to realize for some time now.

I've always had this vague dissatisfaction with ME2's main plot (not the character stories, but the Collector plotline), but couldn't really put my finger on why. People have commented that ME2's story is fed to them, and this made me realize something. In ME1, it was Shepard who had the visions from the Prothean beacon. It was Shepard who got the Cipher (because of the visions). It was the visions and the Cipher that let Liara recognize Ilos. Shepard's involvement was mandatory because of what he experienced in-game. He's special.

In ME2, I never saw a situation like that. No moments where Shepard figured something out. TIM told Shep where to go, who to get, all of that. I felt none of that same direct connection between Shepard and the story like I did in ME1. It really is like Shepard could have been replaced and the story wouldn't have changed in any substantial way.

If you take the events of ME1 out of the picture, get rid of the idea that Shepard is a "big goddamn hero" and a "symbol" and look at ME2 all by itself, Shepard might as well have not existed. There's nothing there to connect him to the story. Contrast to ME1 where ONLY Shepard could have done the things that had to be done.

This is what I didn't like.

Edit:  Fixing the gorram default formatting...

True in ME1 it was Shepards journey/story and you pretty much bring people along, the in depth being the chats with your teamates and random banter which was good. In 2 they seemed to have switched this and Shepard is 'just Shepard' im not sure how to put it but he lacked depth for sure. Your teamates are the focus in 2 and their story is at the forefront but maybe they felt that fans wanted that.

Saying that in ME1 only Shepard and a few henchmen were needed to go after Saren and the collectors are simply a bigger threat which makes sense as to why he has a bigger crew etc. The only reason you get for Shepard being chosen is because he 'stood for humanity at a key moment' which does bump up the hero status idea but you made a good point with regards to Shepard being the only one who you felt could do the job in ME1. Shepard could not have taken out the base alone in 2 he did need a team to be fair but all you know about Shepard is what?, i guess strong willed, determined, a good leader etc but he needs a story of his own.

[miro42]

Encarmine wrote...

you people sadden me

ill pray for you tonight under my candle

But how is the suicide mission any less cool than the final fight for the citadel? perhaps as you guys have experianced ME1 climatic ending, like smoking crack, you cant get that original high back no matter how much you smoke? (dont ask!)

If BioWare gives us crack to start off with, then why would they think we'd be satisfied with Children's Tylenol later? 

[RiouHotaru]

Nightwriter wrote...

I almost feel guilty saying it, but... not really.

RiouHotaru wrote...

And in ME2 we know that the Collectors are on the other side of the Omega-4 Relay and we need a way to get there and good team to back us up.

I'd argue that no investigation of his plan occurs on Virmire, but that's just semantics.  I'm just trying to argue that not everything in ME2 is handed to Shepard on a silver platter as much as Iakus would have people believe.  If Feros and Noveria alone are "investigating" and that ME2 apparently has everything spelled out to you then something about the initial argument is flawed.

I'm willing to hear your arguments and debate this with you. I rather did feel like everything was handed to me. I'm not saying that was everyone's impression, but it was mine, and despite whatever logical arguments you might have for me, the feeling remains. I'm not really sure why. I just felt like the whole plan, the whole story, came about without my participation. It was waiting for me when I got there, and once I arrived they just said "do it". 

Mmm...well, I respect you a great deal Night, and I would love to debate it, but you said yourself that even though I might have logical, reasonable arguments, you still feel as though things were handed to you.  And nothing I can say will likely change that.  Not that I don't like a good debate, but I get the feeling we'd go in circles.  I'll still feel differently than you, and I doubt anything you could argue would change my feeling on the matter.

But, I completely understand your stance.  I can see how you'd feel that way.  I just don't feel that way myself.

Now if only more folks would be as understanding...

[RiouHotaru]

iakus wrote...
Combined with Shepard's ressurection, it just made teh game feel like a cheap action piece.  Basically, Shepard "passed through fire and death" to bandy words with a blue-eyed guy in a suit.  And to shoot mercs.  SHep was pretty much extraneous in his own story.  He had no unique insights, special talents, (besides being the protagonist)  Yet billions of credits were invested in him.  This may be more of a problem with the game setup itself than with the plot or characters, but there you go.

And yet, Shepard had no special talents or unique insights in ME1.  Sure, there was that bit in the beginning about Shepard's background, but that shouldn't need to be relevant again in ME2.  And I know you'll bring up the Prothean Beacon, but it could have easily been either Ashley or Kaidan who saw the vision instead.  Shepard has the unfortunate luck of being the stereotypical Western RPG Protagonist, which is a 'blank slate', the purpose being that by being blank, the players use their imagination to create elements to their own Shepard.

No offense intended.  Btu tell me, How does the Illusive Man know the Reapers are involved?  We see no evidence of this before Horizon, where we at elast saw Reaper tech (husks and Dragon's Teeth)  We find out on Freedom's Progress that Collectors are involved.  That's it.  Yet clearly Shepard believes TIM about, well everything TIM says.  Despite knowing what Cerberus has done in the past.

Well, we don't know for how long the Collectors have been snatching colonists, and TIM even admits after Freedom's progress that he already suspected the Collectors.  How does he know it's the Reapers?  I doubt TIM was 100% confident in his assumption, but if you think about it, it makes sense.  Who else would possibly have a motive for snatching tens of thousands of human colonists?  Who else would have the technology?  Also, knowing what Cerberus did in the past doesn't change the fact that TIM's statement holds merit.  Cerberus aren't known for being liars, just scumbag terrorists.  Also, again, you're not just going along complicitly, there's plenty of dialogue for Shepard that states how uncomfortable he/she feels about the current arrangement.

Nothing, or a stronger central story, as Shepard unravels the mystery over the course of the game.

See, I disagree.  Without any leads, where would you go from there?  Ironically, minus Freedom's Progress the game would likely progress as per normal until Horizon, and then you'd have the moment where you reveal the antagonist...at the halfway mark of the game.  And then that's a stretch since TIM arranged for Horizon to get attacked by leaking information about Shepard.  Without any way to put together a connection, you have no way to proceed.  I mean really, I don't see how you could "unravel the mystery" when the culprits keep committing the perfect crime and otherwise leaving no evidence.  Really, ME2 does the exact same thing ME1 did, by revealing the antagonist within the first hour or so of the game.  So why is it worse with ME2?

The revelation could have been a great suprise, a real game changer.  What what gets done with it?  I haven't found a single response form Shepard that amounts to more than "Well, now we know what we're shooting at"  Mordin has the most to say about it.  One bit of dialogue.

How could it have been such a game changer?  I mean, it's like learning what the Reapers were in ME1 or what Saren was planning for, the overall mission didn't change, you simply knew more about your enemy.  In the same regards the revelation here has the same effect.  We learn that the Collectors are Protheans, who can't be saved, who were repurposed by the reapers as a labor force.  What exactly were you expecting?

Why doesn't the Council trust Shepard?
Because he's working with Cerberus
Why is Shepard working with Cerberus?
Because the Council doesn't trust him.
Why doesn't the Council trust Shepard?
...

I get it, it's a vicious cycle.  But that doesn't make it a weakness of the story.  The Council doesn't appear to have believed you from the start anyway, and the Alliance wants to arrest you and interrogate you about where you've been the last two years.  The whole idea behind the Cerberus affiliation is that you're in a 'deal-with-the-devil' type arrangement.  You're doing it because they're the only people willing to do anything at all.

[Kleli]

miro42 wrote...

I'm sure everything I'll say has been covered in this long thread but I want to throw my two cents in as well.
ME1 didn't have a weak plot, it just had a generic one. It was the unraveling of that plot that made it so interesting and wonderful. Look at the beloved Star Wars. It was boy dreams of being a knight. He becomes a knight to go save the princess. Then he has to slay the dragon. Very basic fantasy but it was told very well, just like ME1.
The problem I see with ME2 is that while it had an interesting plot, it was not only developed in an uninteresting way, it didn't have the epic feel that ME1 had. In ME1 you save the council races (whether you saved the council or not) but then in ME2 you're only saving the human race? And you're forced to work with Cerberus? If I were Shepard I'd have had Joker disable EDI somehow and just jetted. Then I would have gone and found my lost companions and recruited them, cause they kicked total arse. Not that the new crew isn't cool, but I found myself mostly playing with Tali and Garrus, because I felt more comfortable with them. Also, less is more, especially when it comes to the amount of characters. If I had never played an RPG before maybe I might have lost some of my crew but I never felt Shepard or the crew was ever in any danger of dying. Maybe if BioWare hadn't stressed that you could lose some crew I might have not payed as much attention to beefing them up and then felt some connection when someone died.
Regardless, I'll play ME3 but I'm not holding out much hope for the greatness that was the original Mass Effect.

Well written and I totally agree with you!

[Terraneaux]

RiouHotaru wrote...

And yet, Shepard had no special talents or unique insights in ME1.  Sure, there was that bit in the beginning about Shepard's background, but that shouldn't need to be relevant again in ME2.  And I know you'll bring up the Prothean Beacon, but it could have easily been either Ashley or Kaidan who saw the vision instead.  Shepard has the unfortunate luck of being the stereotypical Western RPG Protagonist, which is a 'blank slate', the purpose being that by being blank, the players use their imagination to create elements to their own Shepard.

That's exactly the issue; ME1 was written for a 'blank slate' protagonist, in a way that the protagonist was central to the story.  For ME2 it seemed like the writers would rather write something like a jrpg, except that Shep didn't fit into this model, so he/she was just ignored.  It's painfully obvious in Samara and Jack's stories, in particular, that the writer really wanted that character to be the hero/main character, not Shepard.  ME1 had a good handling of a 'blank slate' protagonist that made the story seem real and made it easy to get invested in it, in ME2 unless you had a huge hard-on for one of the new characters it was pretty meh.  Me, I liked Garrus and Tali's stories the most, because they by necessity involved Shep, as Shep was one of their close friends.