273 réponses à ce sujet

[Kaosgirl]

SheffSteel wrote...

MerinTB wrote...
a lot of emotional stuff about crime and property damage

If you can't see past the emotional impact, try to think of a neutral, non criminal problem that would make your living room unlivable. Okay? Now, would you rather address the problem or resolve never to use your living room again?

But... I don't find this a situation that is 'unlivable,' and your attempts to force an analogy aren't changing that.  All it's doing is convincing me that you're desperate for everyone to feel the same about this as you do.

[F-C]

[MerinTB]

Kaosgirl wrote...

SheffSteel wrote...

MerinTB wrote...
a lot of emotional stuff about crime and property damage

If you can't see past the emotional impact, try to think of a neutral, non criminal problem that would make your living room unlivable. Okay? Now, would you rather address the problem or resolve never to use your living room again?

But... I don't find this a situation that is 'unlivable,' and your attempts to force an analogy aren't changing that.  All it's doing is convincing me that you're desperate for everyone to feel the same about this as you do.

It is hyperbolic.  Attempting to make one situation seem far worse than it is by an unrealistic comparision to a horrible situation that is universally accepted as horrible.

This is the whole "someone is as bad as [Hitler/Stalin/Bush/Carter/boogeyman for your audience]" fallacy.

To have a good analogy for this you'd need to compare it to something that someone else choses to purchase or do, and then have that something have a certain option that so clearly outshines the other optionss that said someone would never choose the others without endlessly comparing the great option to the not-so-great options.

A truck in your house is clearly not a choice (unless owning the house is the choice?) and the truck smashing into the house is not one of the options you'd choose (or is it? )

[Blue_dodo]

sigh.... long rant but I am really tired of all these overpowered/underpowered topics

okey first off lets take out the ideas of min/maxing skills why ? because if you only put points into strength and constitution you going to have a warrior who is very powerful but can't hit worth **** since there attack is so low because you did not put anything into dextarity, the same with your mental resistance  no points into willpower (I do agree that magic is useless to warriors) and you are going to find yourself hit by every single spell, not to mention very low stamina .

the same goes for mages, while strength can be ignored constitution shouldn't no matter how much distance  away from them you will be attacked,  heck even mages can kill you at that point, dextarity is useful if only for the bonus to defense that and a combination   with constitution physical resistance (less you wish to nock down and stuned constantly)

Mages do have some over powered spells, but mana clash only works on mages and therefore is really only a instant killer in certain areas,like the tower, the rest of the time there are only one or two mages in  a group making it rather situational.

tl;dr a charecter is only as overpowered or underpowered as you build them (with the exception t ranged charecters that need to be fixed for us consolers)

[Unbroken Lineage]

This thread delivers.



/facepalm



The best part is how everyone is ignoring the fact that although there appears to be imbalance on paper, in practice, there is none. I know, because I did the work and put in the time. Warriors are not at a disadvantage. Nothing anyone says can deny the experience I have had. And I am not the only one.



BioWare deserves quite a bit more credit in terms of how they've designed the combat mechanics of this game. It's remarkable, really.



I recommend all of the imbalance proponents spend more time playing the game. Each item on the laundry list of imbalances is an illusion, non-existent. I know, because I've done the work and put in the time.



Stamina is not a problem. Although I don't see any reason to spam 10 talents on recharge, I'm never waiting for Stamina when I need to fire off a talent, even in battles that last minutes. My DW has tons of PBAOE, and single-target debuffs and stun, plus the amazing, amazing auto-attacking damage. Really, what's to complain about?



Also, I'm playing on a PS3, which appears to have a superior version of the game, suffering from almost exactly zero of the problems mentioned. CoC lasts for about .1 second late in the game, and Shimmering Shield deactivates when it should. So there's that.



Though I concede that Force Field'd allies should probably lose Threat.



Anyway, carry on your flame war and ignore me.

[Deception_2112]

Well all my Mage characters (Wynne, PC, Morrigan) use the Arcane Warrior in addition to their preset specialization, and yes it does get rather easy at times...

Personally my Mage is a Blood/AW and he completely owns...

Still i wouldn't want this changed, mostly because when lore states something and its reflected in gameplay its more appealing to me. There will probably be rebalancing mods eventually, i'd hate to see Bioware nerf mages to satisfy one group of people..

Also for AW i think the problem is also related to the fact that when you get that specialization its almost an unique one, because the knowledge according to that vial is lost. Meaning you don't face any AW's at all and you and your party are the only ones capable of being one.

You'd think that a bunch of AW bandits ambushing you would be a tough fight for Mages.

Modifié par Deception_2112, 25 novembre 2009 - 10:14 .

[Jhime]

MerinTB wrote...

SheffSteel wrote...

Arguments about overpowered mages - good, bad, and ugly

(...)

If you don't like Mages, don't play them
Really? If a truck drives into your living room, what's your advice? Close the doors and don't go in that room again? Some people want to be able to enjoy the whole game, not just the parts that seem to be okay.

I don't understand the analogy.  What does a truck wrecking your house have to do with anything?  It's a bad analogy.

It's called a straw man argument (and a rather blatant one at that). Learn to recognize them.

Edit: misbalanced the quotes

Modifié par Jhime, 25 novembre 2009 - 10:25 .

[MerinTB]

Jhime wrote...

MerinTB wrote...

SheffSteel wrote...

Arguments about overpowered mages - good, bad, and ugly

(...)

If you don't like Mages, don't play them
Really? If a truck drives into your living room, what's your advice? Close the doors and don't go in that room again? Some people want to be able to enjoy the whole game, not just the parts that seem to be okay.

I don't understand the analogy.  What does a truck wrecking your house have to do with anything?  It's a bad analogy.

It's called a straw man argument (and a rather blatant one at that). Learn to recognize them.

Edit: misbalanced the quotes

Oh, trust me, I know my logical fallacies and feel compelled to point it out to people when their arguments are full of them.

It gets tiring to repeatedly say "strawman" and "ad hominem" all the time, and sometimes you want to try and treat people who seem to be intelligently debating a topic (like I believe SheffSteel was and is) on the merits of what they are trying to say, even if they are fallacious arguments, so hopefully they can see it for themselves.

Honestly, half the time I point out the fallacies I know I must be coming across as pedantic.

[SheffSteel]

Does no-one here know the difference between a simile and a metaphor?
I never tried to say that an unbalanced video game is like having someone destroy part of your house.
The logic of the situation is the same; the scale is not.
If you see a problem in your life, do you avoid it, or try to fix it? Or do you try to blame the person who pointed it out, seizing on what you perceive to be an error in communication on their part?

Modifié par SheffSteel, 26 novembre 2009 - 12:40 .

[WillieStyle]

Blue_dodo wrote...

sigh.... long rant but I am really tired of all these overpowered/underpowered topics

okey first off lets take out the ideas of min/maxing skills why ? because if you only put points into strength and constitution you going to have a warrior who is very powerful but can't hit worth **** since there attack is so low because you did not put anything into dextarity, the same with your mental resistance  no points into willpower (I do agree that magic is useless to warriors) and you are going to find yourself hit by every single spell, not to mention very low stamina .

It would be nice if you understood how the game works before pontificating.

the same goes for mages, while strength can be ignored constitution shouldn't no matter how much distance  away from them you will be attacked,  heck even mages can kill you at that point, dextarity is useful if only for the bonus to defense that and a combination   with constitution physical resistance (less you wish to nock down and stuned constantly)

All of this is wrong.

Mages do have some over powered spells, but mana clash only works on mages and therefore is really only a instant killer in certain areas,like the tower, the rest of the time there are only one or two mages in  a group making it rather situational.

This has got to be parody.  Mages are the most dangerous enemies in the game.  Because there are only 1 or 2 in a group (as opposed to 30?) being able to insta-kill all of the mages in a group (which are again the most dangerous enemies) is "situational". 

[Kaosgirl]

SheffSteel wrote...

Does no-one here know the difference between a simile and a metaphor?
I never tried to say that an unbalanced video game is like having someone destroy part of your house.
The logic of the situation is the same; the scale is not.

But it's not even similar there.  It's more like having a house built too close to a school.   And while that's a "problem" for some people, for others it's a feature.  And still others will quibble about what "too close" means.

SheffSteel wrote...
If you see a problem in your life, do you avoid it, or try to fix it? Or do you try to blame the person who pointed it out, siezing on what you perceive to be an error in communication on their part?

I don't see a problem. What I see is someone trying to convince me that it's a problem, when - for me - it totally is not a problem.  

But even if I did see it as a problem, sometimes the best 'fix' for a problem really is to just avoid it.  Especially when it's something where there's mixed views about whether it really is a problem or not.  Since we're playing the metaphor game: it's more or less the tactic I take regarding the Catholic church.  I find some of their doctrines "problematic," but there's not much I can do about them without creating other problems or offending other people.  So my solution is just to avoid the Catholic church where I can.

Modifié par Kaosgirl, 26 novembre 2009 - 01:28 .

[Titius.Vibius]

On the sloth demon, the mages there are really overpowered, you had to bait one by one because if they gang up on you, you're dead.

[Schyzm]

Unbroken Lineage wrote...

This thread delivers.

/facepalm

The best part is how everyone is ignoring the fact that although there appears to be imbalance on paper, in practice, there is none. I know, because I did the work and put in the time. Warriors are not at a disadvantage. Nothing anyone says can deny the experience I have had. And I am not the only one.

BioWare deserves quite a bit more credit in terms of how they've designed the combat mechanics of this game. It's remarkable, really.

I recommend all of the imbalance proponents spend more time playing the game. Each item on the laundry list of imbalances is an illusion, non-existent. I know, because I've done the work and put in the time.

Stamina is not a problem. Although I don't see any reason to spam 10 talents on recharge, I'm never waiting for Stamina when I need to fire off a talent, even in battles that last minutes. My DW has tons of PBAOE, and single-target debuffs and stun, plus the amazing, amazing auto-attacking damage. Really, what's to complain about?

Also, I'm playing on a PS3, which appears to have a superior version of the game, suffering from almost exactly zero of the problems mentioned. CoC lasts for about .1 second late in the game, and Shimmering Shield deactivates when it should. So there's that.

Though I concede that Force Field'd allies should probably lose Threat.

Anyway, carry on your flame war and ignore me.

this is what? your sixth or seventh different argument against people who actually know how to play the game and consider mages ridiculously overpowered.  I swear some of you fanbois the actual argument becomes irrelevant, so long as you're saying something to protect your precious game.

[Unbroken Lineage]

Schyzm wrote...
this is what? your sixth or seventh different argument against people who actually know how to play the game and consider mages ridiculously overpowered.  I swear some of you fanbois the actual argument becomes irrelevant, so long as you're saying something to protect your precious game.

Yes.  Except this time it's not merely theoretical, but backed by experience.  It'll be a bummer for all if this game is ruined by the rage of a few.

I was willing to entertain the possibility that Warriors were underpowered, so rolled one, and what do you know?  I'm steamrolling Nightmare with a DW Warrior PC and without AOEDPS/AOECC from a Mage.

On paper it looks bad, sure.  In practice, there's nothing there.

[Schyzm]

Unbroken Lineage wrote...

Schyzm wrote...
this is what? your sixth or seventh different argument against people who actually know how to play the game and consider mages ridiculously overpowered.  I swear some of you fanbois the actual argument becomes irrelevant, so long as you're saying something to protect your precious game.

Yes.  Except this time it's not merely theoretical, but backed by experience.  It'll be a bummer for all if this game is ruined by the rage of a few.

I was willing to entertain the possibility that Warriors were underpowered, so rolled one, and what do you know?  I'm steamrolling Nightmare with a DW Warrior PC and without AOEDPS/AOECC from a Mage.

On paper it looks bad, sure.  In practice, there's nothing there.

on paper?  the only paper theorycrafting I've seen has to deal with warriors and rogue's dps.  pretty much everyone who considers mages overpowered does so because they've played the game and seen how ridiculous mages are.  there's a huge number of normal fights where I just tell my other 3 party members(which actually included 2 other mages) to hold position and I just wiped everything with my single mage because that took the least effort and the least amount of pauses.

again you barely have an argument.  you say your "dw warrior" is breezing through nightmare, I guess you're implying that you are soloing nightmare on your warrior?  

[Unbroken Lineage]

Schyzm wrote...
on paper?  the only paper theorycrafting I've seen has to deal with warriors and rogue's dps.  pretty much everyone who considers mages overpowered does so because they've played the game and seen how ridiculous mages are.  there's a huge number of normal fights where I just tell my other 3 party members(which actually included 2 other mages) to hold position and I just wiped everything with my single mage because that took the least effort and the least amount of pauses.

again you barely have an argument.  you say your "dw warrior" is breezing through nightmare, I guess you're implying that you are soloing nightmare on your warrior?  

Not soloing.  Just Alistair, Leliana and Wynn.  No amount of arguing is going to convince you of anything.  You're married to your view.  That's fine.  I hope there's an awesome mod for you to play.

But this thread was about how Warriors are underpowered.  I set out to find out if this was the case.  And I've demonstrated for myself that they are not.  My experience mirrors that of others: that playing a DW Warrior on Nightmare is actually easier than playing an AW/BM on Hard.  That shouldn't be the case, and yet there it is.

[Schyzm]

Unbroken Lineage wrote...

Schyzm wrote...
on paper?  the only paper theorycrafting I've seen has to deal with warriors and rogue's dps.  pretty much everyone who considers mages overpowered does so because they've played the game and seen how ridiculous mages are.  there's a huge number of normal fights where I just tell my other 3 party members(which actually included 2 other mages) to hold position and I just wiped everything with my single mage because that took the least effort and the least amount of pauses.

again you barely have an argument.  you say your "dw warrior" is breezing through nightmare, I guess you're implying that you are soloing nightmare on your warrior?  

Not soloing.  Just Alistair, Leliana and Wynn.  No amount of arguing is going to convince you of anything.  You're married to your view.  That's fine.  I hope there's an awesome mod for you to play.

But this thread was about how Warriors are underpowered.  I set out to find out if this was the case.  And I've demonstrated for myself that they are not.  My experience mirrors that of others: that playing a DW Warrior on Nightmare is actually easier than playing an AW/BM on Hard.  That shouldn't be the case, and yet there it is.

I guess I'm just use to the long procession of fanbois making any gameplay claim they can think of.  keep in mind though most people pointing out how powerful mages are have given long discussions about abilities and how to use them and which ones are really good.  fanbois just come in and say "lol my warrior is fine lol"

[Unbroken Lineage]

Schyzm wrote...
I guess I'm just use to the long procession of fanbois making any gameplay claim they can think of.  keep in mind though most people pointing out how powerful mages are have given long discussions about abilities and how to use them and which ones are really good.  fanbois just come in and say "lol my warrior is fine lol"

Oh, well, a DW Warrior is one-dimensional: The top Warrior line, the whole DW line, Berzerker and Champion lines, plus the Blood skills from Warden's Keep.  Comes with absurd auto-attacking power from passive abilities and sustained abilities, targeted stun in Riposte, targeted Debuff in Cripple, targeted knockdown with Punisher, PBAOE with Whirlwind and Sweep, AOE knockdown with War Cry, and bunch of targeted DPS stamina-sinks.

I'd use Reaver if I weren't on Nightmare.  The Reaver/Champion decision is between pure DPS and CC/Buffs.

[rumination888]

I heard that the console versions give you additional hidden attack, defense, and damage bonuses to make up for the fact that you can't play as tactically as the PC version. Those bonuses help non-mages more. The ability to play tactically on the PC version also favours mages more.

[F-C]

i dont know why anyone even bothers to respond to these trolls who keep crying for nerfs. Georg told them weeks ago on the other forum they arnt going to do any major class balancing, the game is already balanced how they want it, and if you dont like it to use the toolkit.



they are still here weeks later making the same old tired posts like being pestering and annoying is going to change the developers minds. its a waste of time to even respond to them, let them wallow in their own misery. apparently its the only thing they have.

[Raxxman]

Unbroken Lineage wrote...

Schyzm wrote...
on paper?  the only paper theorycrafting I've seen has to deal with warriors and rogue's dps.  pretty much everyone who considers mages overpowered does so because they've played the game and seen how ridiculous mages are.  there's a huge number of normal fights where I just tell my other 3 party members(which actually included 2 other mages) to hold position and I just wiped everything with my single mage because that took the least effort and the least amount of pauses.

again you barely have an argument.  you say your "dw warrior" is breezing through nightmare, I guess you're implying that you are soloing nightmare on your warrior?  

Not soloing.  Just Alistair, Leliana and Wynn.  No amount of arguing is going to convince you of anything.  You're married to your view.  That's fine.  I hope there's an awesome mod for you to play.

But this thread was about how Warriors are underpowered.  I set out to find out if this was the case.  And I've demonstrated for myself that they are not.  My experience mirrors that of others: that playing a DW Warrior on Nightmare is actually easier than playing an AW/BM on Hard.  That shouldn't be the case, and yet there it is.

Great for you, but my experiance of soloing a AW/BM on nightmare is so far easier than running a full party first time through (also on nightmare). Dare I suggest that you might of improved the second time round.

I'll also add that after playing with the difficulty settings bit I find the difficulty doesn't really make a huge difference to the way I play the game. The only difference in the outcome is I finish the fights a bit faster.

Beating the game easily is hardly a litmus test on the quality of your team build. I often used 2 2-handers, archer +  poorly built Morg (no cc past coc, no heal, what does she do? not a lot really) on my first time round and while my solo mage is much better built, I wasn't really troubled then.

The only time tactics really come into play is when you're facing boss encounters due to the intense cheese of massive hp/damage/cc immunity, and I'd say the 2 hander path is better in those times due to stun and knockdown immunity and natrual AP. Indom is a really oped skill.

[PatT2]

I read what I hope is most of this thread. I still see one thing not mentioned. I read on the Bioware tech support forum (maybe the old forum?) that the Arcane Warrior ON THE PC... has a problem where they don't use mana or whatever when that shield thing is on, which makes them far more powerful than they ought to be. IT'S A DARNED BUG! Don't worry. They'll fix it. Then you folks who hate how powerful Arcane warriors (on the pc) are, will not have that, unless you refuse to patch your games.



On the much-maligned consoles, that "feature/bug" doesn't exist.



So, maybe that's just food for thought. Who knows? As for the rest of it, I saw these arguments a week ago while playing a mage and figured I was taking the easy way out. But now I'm playing a rogue, and my rogue OWNS mages. One nice firebomb. So many ashes. Sheesh. Mages are wimps in the face of a good, sharp, poisoned blade and a backstab, or even a kick in the knees.



What ever. I'm going back to the game. Your complaints will be rewarded when bioware fixes your pc games.

[Roxlimn]

You can buy an infinite amount of EITHER kind of potion, which means that any and all characters under your control are functionally invulnerable to anything and everything. The difference is, with Warriors, you can set Tactics to auto-chug potions and then watch while the tactical portion of the game plays itself, pretty much the entire way. You can do it with Mages, too, but it'll take longer.

[PhD-gaming]

I played through my first time with an elven mage on hard (obviously without realizing the arcane warrior's overpowered aspect). I only upgraded to the first attribute of the AW, and that was to wear heavier armors. I found this (as well as full spirit healer, healer, and base mage/no spirit magic/no entropy) to make for an extremely well balanced play. I was often challenged to the point of frustration, but not giving up. If I were to recommend any PC mages, get the first attribute for arcane warrior, and then a few elemental spells (I went for electricity because it's the least resisted spelltype) and healing. If you'd like, take along another mage. POINT IS.... you determine whether or not it's balanced, whether you like it or not.

[Marionetten]

The human noble origin is vastly overpowered when compared to the excessively dull mage origin.