273 réponses à ce sujet

[Damiannnnn]

Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I have read every single codex entry over the 3 weeks I have been playing the game, and I have not seen 1 entry that says mages are locked up because they possess magical power. I have seen numerous codex entries that say they are locked up because of their vulnerability to demonic possession, however.



The codex entries do frequently mention that they are extremely powerful, but it ALWAYS says that they are locked up first and foremost because of their vulnerability to demonic possession. So, that being said, them being locked up isn't an excuse for their overpoweredness.



They are HUGELY overpowered, even for a single player game. When I played as a mage, I never got further than the Grey Warden initiation mission in the Korcari Wilds, because everytime I encountered a group of enemies, they were all dead before any of my group could get a single hit on them. Fireball to damage them all, walking bomb on one, lightning on him, then death for the entire group.



It was so easy it was boring.

[Axterix]

siriusblaque wrote...

jimmenee christmas, is this an RPG? Cause as I recall in this world of Ferelden everybody knows that mages are overpowered. That's why the cage em up or kill quick if they even think they are going rouge.

Actually, think the caging has more to do with a few other factors.  Mainly, there was a mage run empire that oppressed people, mages are blamed for causing the blight, demons who possess mages are crazy powerful (supposedly), and blood mages can control people's minds as well as being prone to summoning demons.

Powerwise, in game, well, mages seem to get less respect than wardens, wits, and, for that matter, brute strength.  More cases where you can say "because I'm a warden" or intimidate than you can say "because I'm a mage."

[Roxlimn]

Skellimancer notes that his Arcane Warrior at level 12 has 42 armor and 69 defense wearing Juggernaut Armor and whatever powers he's using to boost his defense. He neglects to mention that he is not using those points to get something really powerful like Storm of the Century or Crushing Prison + Hex + Primals nuking.

Of course, the Hero is going to be more powerful than his cohorts. This is not a problem. At the same level a Warrior Hero could have 37 Armor and over 98 Defense plus more HP and a bunch of damage dealing absurdities.

On Normal, a Warrior has a distinct advantage in the early going as long as he's able to equip Blood Dragon Armor. With that thing on, you could solo a heck of a lot of crap taking practically no damage. It's much easier than doing the same thing with a Mage Hero because Alistair sucks as a tank and DPS machine, and as a low level Mage, you gotta pick which powers you have and they're none of them really all that good.

People who say that all the low level Mage powers are good clearly don't really know this game. Cone of Cold is NOT a low tier power - it's a 3rd tier power in a tree in which you also have a Weapon Enhance power. Mindblast is fantastic, but it's close range, the stun is short duration, and it's got a fair cooldown. Comparatively, Shield Bash also does damage, and Warrior at the level output way more normal attack damage.

The argument is completely bogus anyway. An OPTIMIZED mage would have the power ratings described. If you want to play a Mage for roleplaying reasons - then DON'T optimize him. Put points into Strength! I mean, the Mage IS an Arcane Warrior, is he not? Makes sense to make him strong, no?

The game can be solo'd on Nightmare with Rogues. Are they overpowered, too? Some of the most OP effects in the game are not keyed to class at all.

Damiannn:

You should try the same mission with an Archer-focused group with Rogue or Warrior and the Dex hotfix.  It's even easier than what you describe.  Even without the hotfix, it wasn't all that hard.

You can't use Fireball when you're being ambushed by invisible Shrieks in the Deep Roads.

Doude:

If you can, please post your level-up plan for your AW - I would very much like to plan an AW in Cloth Armor and be viable as a tank the whole game, but I'm having problems planning out the route.  Hex-based would be good - my previous AW was Primal-based.

Modifié par Roxlimn, 25 novembre 2009 - 02:31 .

[Unbroken Lineage]

Gecon wrote...

Unbroken Lineage wrote...
It's only a viable win button on PC where the buffs never wear off, which I believe is a bug.

The opposite is true. Buffy have an upkeep, i.e. they suck away part of your mana pool permanently. Therefore there is nothing buggy about them never wearing off.

Shimmering Shield says very clearly in the description that it quickly depletes Mana.  It does this on the PS3, and at the point your Mana reaches 0, it is dispelled.  Since it doesn't actually do this on the PC, I think it's fair to say this is a bug.  

Modifié par Unbroken Lineage, 25 novembre 2009 - 02:32 .

[Roxlimn]

Doude:



If you can, please post your AW level-up plan here. I'd like to see how you manage better-than-40 Defense on an AW with a fatigue of 11%. I want to use it. Is it with Rock Armor + Spell Might?

[Damiannnnn]

Roxlimn wrote...

Skellimancer notes that his Arcane Warrior at level 12 has 42 armor and 69 defense wearing Juggernaut Armor and whatever powers he's using to boost his defense. He neglects to mention that he is not using those points to get something really powerful like Storm of the Century or Crushing Prison + Hex + Primals nuking.

Of course, the Hero is going to be more powerful than his cohorts. This is not a problem. At the same level a Warrior Hero could have 37 Armor and over 98 Defense plus more HP and a bunch of damage dealing absurdities.

On Normal, a Warrior has a distinct advantage in the early going as long as he's able to equip Blood Dragon Armor. With that thing on, you could solo a heck of a lot of crap taking practically no damage. It's much easier than doing the same thing with a Mage Hero because Alistair sucks as a tank and DPS machine, and as a low level Mage, you gotta pick which powers you have and they're none of them really all that good.

People who say that all the low level Mage powers are good clearly don't really know this game. Cone of Cold is NOT a low tier power - it's a 3rd tier power in a tree in which you also have a Weapon Enhance power. Mindblast is fantastic, but it's close range, the stun is short duration, and it's got a fair cooldown. Comparatively, Shield Bash also does damage, and Warrior at the level output way more normal attack damage.

The argument is completely bogus anyway. An OPTIMIZED mage would have the power ratings described. If you want to play a Mage for roleplaying reasons - then DON'T optimize him. Put points into Strength! I mean, the Mage IS an Arcane Warrior, is he not? Makes sense to make him strong, no?

The game can be solo'd on Nightmare with Rogues. Are they overpowered, too? Some of the most OP effects in the game are not keyed to class at all.

Damiannn:

You should try the same mission with an Archer-focused group with Rogue or Warrior and the Dex hotfix.  It's even easier than what you describe.  Even without the hotfix, it wasn't all that hard.

You can't use Fireball when you're being ambushed by invisible Shrieks in the Deep Roads.

Doude:

If you can, please post your level-up plan for your AW - I would very much like to plan an AW in Cloth Armor and be viable as a tank the whole game, but I'm having problems planning out the route.  Hex-based would be good - my previous AW was Primal-based.

I don't use a DEX hotfix, I heard a few people mention that it takes something that's broken in one respect, but breaks it in another respect by making DEX heavy classes powerhouses.

[Doude]

Roxlimn wrote...

Doude:

If you can, please post your AW level-up plan here. I'd like to see how you manage better-than-40 Defense on an AW with a fatigue of 11%. I want to use it. Is it with Rock Armor + Spell Might?

I dont have Spell Might.
Im wearing Heavy Dragonscale Armor (not Massive!). This gives only 6% fatigue.
Then add Rock Armor.

My AW is level 15 now and has 34 Armor with Rock Armor up (Defence 64).
My Al is level 14 and has 35 Armor and 75 Defence with Shield Wall in Juggernaut armor (full Shield tree).

For 16.5 fatigue my AW can turn on Arcane Shield to reach higher Defence than Al (79).
With combat magic, fatigue goes up to 66.5% and the stats end up at 34 Armor and 89 Defence. Note that this is with only heavy armor, not massive. (i usually run around like this - at the beginning of a battle i cast
one big spell, then turn on Miasma and melee while spamming Weakness)

With Shimmering Shield this would go much higher still (i think it gives +15 Armor and loads of resistances).

There might be some gear differences between the two characters, i didnt check everything. And Al doesnt have the heaviest armor yet so he could go 4 Armor higher i think.

But 34 Armor with practically no fatigue... I like it :-).

Modifié par Doude, 25 novembre 2009 - 03:04 .

[Roxlimn]

I approached the Grey Warden Quests with a Sword and Board Warrior armed with a Bow and Medium Armor and Survival (to locate enemy units fairly). It was still a cakewalk - easier and more braindead than with a Mage, certainly. With a Mage, you actually have to worry about positioning.

[Doude]

misspost...

Modifié par Doude, 25 novembre 2009 - 03:04 .

[Roxlimn]

Doude:



Pshaw. WIth the same equipment and levels I was pushing 42 and I even put 5 points into Strength at the starting levels, just so I could be an "Arcane Warrior" from start to finish!



Fatigue is overrated. Get Massive Dragonscale Armor. Between the mana boosts from that and from Eamon's Shield, you have more than enough mana to go around assuming you don't also engage Combat Magic, which tanks your fatigue worse than any armor.



Even with Massive Armor and Combat Magic, I was able to pump my AW's mana to the point where I was casting Storm of the Century WITH Massive Armor and Combat Magic active. And I had Spirit Healer, not Blood Mage as secondary specialization. Insane.



Alistair is a chump. He won't ever approach the Hero in terms of efficacy. Morrigan is closer, but still no contest. As a Warrior Hero, you're much better advised to take Shale rather than Alistair - he's THAT bad. At level 15, a Warrior Hero could be breaking 40 Armor and 100 Defense - more than enough to solo Revenants. With Topsider's Honor and Grandmaster, Master, and Expert Cold Iron runes, the Warrior Hero will run roughshod over Redcliffe, Revenants, and any Undead Encounter you choose, no prob. Heck, you don't even have to micro him - he owns mobs on Auto.



Runes, Bombs, and Traps make Warrior Heroes MUCH more powerful than at first glance. Bombs do great damage and can be used more readily than Fireball.



If you want Knockdown power, Taunt + Two-handed Sweep is essentially a Warrior's Fireball. He can follow that up with War Cry (with Superiority) for a second knockdown effect, too. And, as always, never underestimate the killing power of three Final Blows.



It's more fun for most peeps to max out the Mages, but the Warriors in DAO are no slouch.

[Xarne]

Working as intended.



DA:O has been a cut above all all other rpgs of this type, even by BioWare standards.

[Drakolore]

Mages in DA:O are fine as it is, this is a single player game and the classes are not really in competition, if people are having problems with non mage classes prehaps its because those classes need some buffs... weakening the mage won't be the solution here...

[csmayer]

Played the game through the third time now and I must say I agree with the original poster - at least a bit.



One way to fix the lack of difficulty may be to make NIGHTMARE even harder. Maybe by increasing enemies resistances. That way at least mages aren't as overpowered.



I got to say though. Even with me DW Reaper/Berserker warrior the game was a piece of cake in nightmare. So imho the charakters aren't to weak, but the game is too easy.

Still ... the game is pure awesomeness. And the fact that it is a bit easier than one might expect makes it at least possible to play it through more than once.





The game is what you make of it. Using tactics cleverly, gearing your companions right, skilling and statting them correctly and planing ahead makes the game not only more fun and thus less frustrating, bit gives you the opportunity to play it the way it's meant to be played (even without a nvidia card - if you get my drift )

[SheffSteel]

Arguments about overpowered mages - good, bad, and ugly

Suppose that the game was shipped with an bug that meant that warriors couldn't equip weapons. Now imagine the complaints on forums from people who want to play warriors but are having a really tough time doing enough damage. What kind of arguments would you not want to see?


It's fine, stop whining
Thank you for sharing your opinion with us. If you're like to also take part in a discussion, you'd be most welcome.

It's a single-player game, it doesn't need to be balanced
Do you think that game designers only started considering balance when WoW was published? Stop thinking about WoW and PVP; it is only going to distract you. Balance is an important game design issue regardless of the number of players.

If you don't like Mages, don't play them
Really? If a truck drives into your living room, what's your advice? Close the doors and don't go in that room again? Some people want to be able to enjoy the whole game, not just the parts that seem to be okay.

The Lore! The Looooooooooooorrrrrre!
Okay, let's look at the lore then. What does it say about mages?
1. Dangerous and powerful.
2. Lyrium is addictive and destroys your health.
3. Chance of turning into a demon.
4. Overseen, guarded, and restricted by Templars.
If you look at the game, the only parts of the lore that actually apply to mages are the good parts. All the factors that might restrain them are simply not there. Neither the player character nor the large number of human/elf mages you encounter are in any way hampered by the Templars. You never have to worry about lyrium at all - in fact just touching it gives you full health. And I know this is the no spoiler forum, but no one has ever mentioned their character becoming a demon.

Just change the difficulty level
That sounds like a good idea, as far as it goes. However, it might not go far enough. If you're having difficulty on Easy mode, your only option is to change your party lineup to add more mages. If Nightware isn't hard enough with a Mage player character, you can't play them - or I suppose you could try make deliberately bad spell selections.

Mages are not in fact overpowered
This is the only argument that holds any water - but it's just a statement of opinion that hasn't been demonstrated objectively. Did you try playing an Arcane Warrior yet? My experience of playing as a rogue and a Mage (difficulty = Normal/PC) is that the Mage has a far easier time of it.

Modifié par SheffSteel, 25 novembre 2009 - 04:48 .

[Roxlimn]

Yes, I have, in fact, played an Arcane Warrior. My stats were apparently skewed higher than normal here - close to optimized, despite my not building to it on purpose. In fact, I'm 5 points short on Magic because I put it into Strength.



No, it's not that much easier. In the early going, playing Warrior is easier because you're not as squishy and you don't need to wait until level 7 to wear decent protection. Haven't played Rogue yet, but I'm already thinking that that's going to be rather easy as well.



In the Grey Warden quests, in particular, having great Strength gives your Bows fantastic damage. If you're on Normal, put a point into Survival so you can pinpoint enemies without cheating. Then kill them one at a time by equipping everyone with Bows and striking from range. When the nearest one comes within range, kite him with whoever he's chasing.



In fact, you can ALSO finish the Ishal Tower Ogre blatantly easily using this route. As a Mage, he will probably preferentially target you. And you will be screwed unless you kite him. As a Warrior, the Circle Mage kited him around the perimeter while me and Alistair shot him full of arrows. Simple, easy, no difficulty whatsoever. Increasing his HP or damage would not have mattered since he never attacked anything and it would only have increased time played to increase his HP.



So yes, I rather think I'm speaking from a knowledgeable point of comparison.

[Unbroken Lineage]

I think as time wears on and more players play the different classes, and learn more about how the game is properly played, they will realize there is no imbalance, as I and others who have put the time in have discovered.

I have had the same experience as many have already stated here: that my DW Warrior on Nightmare in a team without Mage AOEDPS/AOECC, is having an easier time than my AOEDPS Mage on Normal and my AW/BM on Hard.

No stamina issues, no lack of abilities to shut down priority targets, no lack of raw power, no imbalance.

Modifié par Unbroken Lineage, 25 novembre 2009 - 05:15 .

[oYOSSARIANo]

My first play through I was a rogue. My top damage dealt was 87 during the game. I started a new game as a mage last night and I have already done 110 damage with one spell. They do seem powerful.

[SirGCal]

oYOSSARIANo wrote...

My first play through I was a rogue. My top damage dealt was 87 during the game. I started a new game as a mage last night and I have already done 110 damage with one spell. They do seem powerful.

My lvl 8 rogue has a 660 pointer already... On nightmare...

[random.name]

This read was hilarious. Whines like this I can understand in a game like WoW due to the fact that it directly affects your playing experience if another class is OP. This however is a single player game, not a multiplayer game. No 'retlol', rogue etc is going to gank you while you are doing your quests, so I find it very hard to believe how an OP class/spec affects you.



I can understand someone asking Bioware to buff a class, but calling for a nerf just makes no sense in a single player game. Noone is forcing you to go aw/bm.

[Skellimancer]

SirGCal wrote...

oYOSSARIANo wrote...

My first play through I was a rogue. My top damage dealt was 87 during the game. I started a new game as a mage last night and I have already done 110 damage with one spell. They do seem powerful.

My lvl 8 rogue has a 660 pointer already... On nightmare...

Try mana clash on a group of casters.

It can dish out well over 2k damage in all... On nightmare..

[adam_nox]

This game is much easier if you play a warrior. I know, I've done both. In fact, if your party is 4 warriors and you have pots you'll just destroy everything with no effort.



You people are idiots.

[SheffSteel]

aftohsix wrote...

I disagree with you that balance is important in a single player game.  I just really have a hard time understanding how some people can really be upset about this considering there are no leaderboards, no multiplayer components, no acheivements for completing the game on a harder difficulty and therefore no REAL benefit to the game being easier as a souped up Mage other than the fact that the game is easier.

Outside of your own personal experience it has ZERO effect.

Yes, this is a single player game. Yes, any bug or problem in the game has ZERO effect outside of my own personal experience. Now... to make your argument worth something, please tell me why my own personal experience doesn't matter. Otherwise you've just reinforced my point - the more you think about this game as if it was a version of WoW, the more confused your thinking will be.

Modifié par SheffSteel, 25 novembre 2009 - 06:41 .

[Dzanem]

Mages are supposed to be powerfull in this setting, our character especially. From what we know, todays mages in ferelden are shadows of ancient Tevinter mages. Mages are few and powerfull in this setting. That is why we have Templars to watch them To dumb down this class becouse of envy, becouse you want your character to be most powerfull in Thedas is just arrogant, Not one good point i have hear yet. If it was multiplayer yes I agree, otherways, shees, relax its a game where mages own if we dont have Chantry to keep eye on them. Its fact, live with it,,,