273 réponses à ce sujet

[ramatheson]

"Enoch VG wrote...
 Bio is selling us a game, and when games give players choices at character creation, there is an unspoken promise that all of said options will be roughly equivalent in usefulness. Sure, there are synergies that can increase effectiveness, and there are always obvious ways one can gimp one's character (which the player should be warned against, e.g., putting points into "Magic" for a Rogue), but if the game allows the player to stumble into classes/abilities/spells that are either very overpowered or very underpowered, it leads to frustrated and unhappy players. That's not the result that any game designer should be aiming for. "

I can't say for sure because I don't know you from Adam, but I would guess that you haven't been playing PC RPGs for more than a few years. I could be wrong. However, I remember back in the 80s and 90s, before MMOs were so mainstreamed, finding the perfect combos and classes that would "break" the game and basically enable you to be in god mode was one of the things many players strove to do. It was sort of a challenge to find the class or ability that "broke" the game.

I see the AWs as simply being that one class that does this. To me, it's just a nod to the old school-style of RPG developing by putting one way overpowered class in the game.

Modifié par ramatheson, 25 novembre 2009 - 07:06 .

[Schyzm]

now now people just because mages are given nearly every good ability in the game and have an infinite resource pool is no reason to call them "overpowered" that's just crazy talk.

[SheffSteel]

Dzanem wrote...

Mages are supposed to be powerfull in this setting, our character especially. From what we know, todays mages in ferelden are shadows of ancient Tevinter mages. Mages are few and powerfull in this setting. That is why we have Templars to watch them To dumb down this class becouse of envy, becouse you want your character to be most powerfull in Thedas is just arrogant, Not one good point i have hear yet. If it was multiplayer yes I agree, otherways, shees, relax its a game where mages own if we dont have Chantry to keep eye on them. Its fact, live with it,,,

The Looooooooooooorrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrreeee!
(see previous page)

[Sakiradesu]

Warriors and rogues destroy single targets. You might spend more time killing regulars, but when it comes to yellows and oranges, you'll want a good melee on your side.



On my mage, I'd have my party kill everything else and then spend 1-2 minutes on the yellow/orange. On my rogue, I just drop the yellow/orange in 10-20 seconds.

[JaegerBane]

Dzanem wrote...

Mages are supposed to be powerfull in this setting, our character especially. From what we know, todays mages in ferelden are shadows of ancient Tevinter mages. Mages are few and powerfull in this setting. That is why we have Templars to watch them To dumb down this class becouse of envy, becouse you want your character to be most powerfull in Thedas is just arrogant, Not one good point i have hear yet. If it was multiplayer yes I agree, otherways, shees, relax its a game where mages own if we dont have Chantry to keep eye on them. Its fact, live with it,,,

You hit the nail on the head. We hear curiously little reasoning why mages have to be dumbed down - what few mentions we get run along the lines of 'mAh BallAnce iz wacked mah SOrdsMeN iz sooposEd to bee da Godd ov WAAR!!!' which is ultimately, some weird class envy.

I'm not really sure what these naysayers actually expect to happen. On the one hand, you have a dude with a sword, on the other, you have a guy who can call down fire and lightning, freeze people solid and attacks with everything from telekinesis to swarms of wasps. I mean, realistically, why are people surprised that Mages are better out-and-out damage dealers? Aside from the fact that such a role happens to be one mages traditionally fulfil, with rogues traditionally being the skill monkeys and warriors being the tanks. 

What I find hilarious is that all these self-appointed champions of balance were curiously silent when it came to other games where the warriors, with their +5d6 elemental blades of doom and Ki Criticals walked all over Casters who were the only classes in the game that needed to rest to continue fighting. Now that Warriors and Mages are on equal footing - that is, both having to run off a resource - we hear nothing but whinging.

Schyzm wrote...

now now people just because mages are
given nearly every good ability in the game and have an infinite
resource pool is no reason to call them "overpowered" that's just crazy
talk.

'Good ability' is subjective, and mana drains just like stamina.

Modifié par JaegerBane, 25 novembre 2009 - 07:27 .

[MerinTB]

[quote]SheffSteel wrote...

Arguments about overpowered mages - good, bad, and ugly

(...)

It's a single-player game, it doesn't need to be balanced
Do you think that game designers only started considering balance when WoW was published? Stop thinking about WoW and PVP; it is only going to distract you. Balance is an important game design issue regardless of the number of players.
[/quote]

Balance would be more important in a single-player CRPG if you only had one character.  You have a PARTY.  And the game is, more or less, expecting you to go warrior, rogue, mage and X, where X is probably another warrior.  It's the classic party, more or less.  If you make your main character the mage, so be it, if not, so be it.

In classical fantasy the wizard almost always was more than a match for any single warrior or thief, and often took a party of people or an army to defeat.

Yes it's a game, but its not multi-player so it isn't like you can exploit it against someone you play.  In that case I grudgingly accept, for example, that Ryu or Jill Valentine can punch and hurt the Hulk or Rogue in Marvel vs. Capcom 2 even though it's utterly ridiculous.  For those characters to be in that kind of game, they need to be balanced.

The balance for classes in a single player CRPG shouldn't be for damage capability but fun.  Do you have FUN playing your rogue or warrior?  If you have more fun with the mage, so be it.  I'm having a blast with my rogue, and while I always have Morrigan around I've been playing with the same party members the WHOLE GAME except with the game's story forces you to switch out (so far, past the origin story, I've had to take Wynne and Oghren) and with my Alistair, Dog, Morrigan and MC rogue Tyrri, I'm seeing % damage dealt pretty much equal amongst all four party members, with my MC a bit ahead (yes, the rogue - yes, the rogue who's 16 level and has no combat training about 2nd level)

I find the rogue VERY fun to play - and if you knew me personally, you'd realize what a statement that is.  I never play the thief, table-top or CRPG.  NEVER.  I often don't even have on in the party if its a 6-character CRPG (Knock spells for doors and chest, and just take the damage and heal from traps.)  But I'm having a blast being a rogue in this game.

Your mileage may very - but I couldn't care less if someone playing some Arcane Mage combo with the uber-build and superb spell selection can deal 1000% more damage than me.  Whoopie-do - I'm playing a story-based role-playing game, not a hack N slash that your goal is to be the damned toughest character EVAH.

That attitude (the MY CHARACTER MUST BE TOUGHEST) is why I dislike 3.5 D&D and many of the people I could RP with IRL.  Not saying that you have this attitude, SheffSteel, just saying where I'm coming from.

[quote]
If you don't like Mages, don't play them
Really? If a truck drives into your living room, what's your advice? Close the doors and don't go in that room again? Some people want to be able to enjoy the whole game, not just the parts that seem to be okay.
[/quote]

I don't understand the analogy.  What does a truck wrecking your house have to do with anything?  It's a bad analogy.  Did the mage class appear in your game and wreak your party's camp and refuses to leave the camp?

I usually don't like rogues (hence why I usually don't even have a thief-type character in my party in all but this game) but I don't hate on the game because there are rogues.

I think the hybrid class system for 4th ED D&D is potentially overpowering and utterly stupid, but it doesn't stop me from enjoying D&D (I just won't take that option AND as a DM I won't allow that option, but if I'm a player and a DM allows another player to use the Hybrid class I'm not going to declare the game broken and demand the DM disallow that option in the DM's game.)

If Arcane Warrior seems too powerful for you (and I'll give EVERYONE WHO SAYS SO THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT and say it's more combat effective than any other class options for the sake of argument), don't ever select it for any mage in your party.  Don't even unlock it (you have to kind of go out of your way to get it, you know?)

If you COULDN'T SUCCEED in the game WITHOUT an Arcane Warrior Mage I'd see a reason for unbalance - but there are plenty of people playing, having fun, and winning without ANY mage in their party.

Because one option makes something easier doesn't mean the other options are bad - unless the whole point for you with playing the game is to take the easiest route always. *shrug*  Then that is your choice.

I like trying different things, different characters, different builds - and rarely is my thought process in these games "how can I build the most effective, highest damage dealing, needed the least help from allies, character possible" but instead my thoughts almost always like "what would be fun to try this time - ooo, shapeshifting!"

Will shapeshifting be uber?  I don't care.  Is it fun (and can I be reasonably successful with it)?  If yes, then all's good.

[quote]
The Lore! The Looooooooooooorrrrrre!
Okay, let's look at the lore then. What does it say about mages?
1. Dangerous and powerful.
2. Lyrium is addictive and destroys your health.
3. Chance of turning into a demon.
4. Overseen, guarded, and restricted by Templars.
If you look at the game, the only parts of the lore that actually apply to mages are the good parts. All the factors that might restrain them are simply not there. Neither the player character nor the large number of human/elf mages you encounter are in any way hampered by the Templars. You never have to worry about lyrium at all - in fact just touching it gives you full health. And I know this is the no spoiler forum, but no one has ever mentioned their character becoming a demon.
[/quote]

See previous stuff above about balance.

[quote]
Just change the difficulty level
That sounds like a good idea, as far as it goes. However, it might not go far enough. If you're having difficulty on Easy mode, your only option is to change your party lineup to add more mages. If Nightware isn't hard enough with a Mage player character, you can't play them - or I suppose you could try make deliberately bad spell selections.
[/quote]

1 - I don't think you're only option, if you are having difficulty, is to either drop the difficulty setting OR add more mages.  You can try different tactics and strategies as well.
2 - You don't have to make bad spell selections, just different spell selections.  If you've already played through once using Killer Spell Selection A, try your second mage build by avoiding at least that exact selection if not going for a completely different selection of spells all together.   You don't have to purposefully take bad spells, but you know maybe if the game is too easy for you after you uberred your 3-mage party, try a party with only 1 mage and have them focus on healing and defensive spells only. *shrug*

If game-playing to you is only about making the best possible build and any other choices then become "wrong" - well, we just have a different idea of what fun in a game is.

[quote]
Mages are not in fact overpowered
This is the only argument that holds any water - but it's just a statement of opinion that hasn't been demonstrated objectively. Did you try playing an Arcane Warrior yet? My experience of playing as a rogue and a Mage (difficulty = Normal/PC) is that the Mage has a far easier time of it.[/quote]
[/quote]
I've argued this elsewhere but, in brief, to have any idea of what the actual balance of this game really is you'd have to play the game FAR MORE THAN IS POSSIBLE in the time the game's been out.
Just to try all the different mage build options, using almost exactly the same skill and spell selection with the only change between characters being Specializations, there are 11 possible mages you could play.  Playing 1 mage build and 1 rogue build can only compare the effectiveness, in your eyes, of those two builds - not of mages and rogues.

As for "overpowered", I've also argued this elsewhere - without some standard or rule or law stating that all character build options MUST be balanced (and there is none for games in general and for DAO in specific) then calling one class "overepowered" is opinion, a personal judgement call.
For some, the mage being more powerful (if it is) isn't an issue and therefore the mage being more powerful doesn't make it overpowered.
For others, they don't see the mage as more powerful than other classes and therefore the mage can't be overpowered.

You can't declare, by fiat, that your opinion that a mage is overpowered is fact.  Without some standard that we all agree upon (and clearly many forum posters do not agree that single-player CRPGs need class balancing) then we cannot declare as fact that a mage is or is not overpowered.

Whether the mage is MORE POWERFUL is perhaps something that can be quantified, but that's different from OVERPOWERED.

[Schyzm]

JaegerBane wrote...

Dzanem wrote...

Mages are supposed to be powerfull in this setting, our character especially. From what we know, todays mages in ferelden are shadows of ancient Tevinter mages. Mages are few and powerfull in this setting. That is why we have Templars to watch them To dumb down this class becouse of envy, becouse you want your character to be most powerfull in Thedas is just arrogant, Not one good point i have hear yet. If it was multiplayer yes I agree, otherways, shees, relax its a game where mages own if we dont have Chantry to keep eye on them. Its fact, live with it,,,

You hit the nail on the head. We hear curiously little reasoning why mages have to be dumbed down - what few mentions we get run along the lines of 'mAh BallAnce iz wacked mah SOrdsMeN iz sooposEd to bee da Godd ov WAAR!!!' which is ultimately, some weird class envy.

I'm not really sure what these naysayers actually expect to happen. On the one hand, you have a dude with a sword, on the other, you have a guy who can call down fire and lightning, freeze people solid and attacks with everything from telekinesis to swarms of wasps. I mean, realistically, why are people surprised that Mages are better out-and-out damage dealers? Aside from the fact that such a role happens to be one mages traditionally fulfil, with rogues traditionally being the skill monkeys and warriors being the tanks. 

What I find hilarious is that all these self-appointed champions of balance were curiously silent when it came to other games where the warriors, with their +5d6 elemental blades of doom and Ki Criticals walked all over Casters who were the only classes in the game that needed to rest to continue fighting. Now that Warriors and Mages are on equal footing - that is, both having to run off a resource - we hear nothing but whinging.

Schyzm wrote...

now now people just because mages are
given nearly every good ability in the game and have an infinite
resource pool is no reason to call them "overpowered" that's just crazy
talk.

'Good ability' is subjective, and mana drains just like stamina.

this is why the knee-jerk defense fanbois need to stop arguing, they just say so many wrong things that it not only destroys the flow of the conversation, but completely sidetracks the argument and makes everyone more mad.
 

you can buy an infinite number of mana potions.  if you know so little about the game that you don't know this, then why on god's earth are you commenting on balance?

[SheffSteel]

About the truck-in-living-room analogy.
If you see a problem, the solution is not to avoid the problem and pretend it doesn't exist. Saying "if you think mages are broken, don't play mages" is to me the equivalent of saying, "if you're bothered about your living room having been destroyed by a truck, don't go in the living room". I don't want to abandon a third of the playable classes any more than I'd want to abandon a room in my house.

Modifié par SheffSteel, 25 novembre 2009 - 07:40 .

[JaegerBane]

Schyzm wrote...
this is why the knee-jerk defense fanbois need to stop arguing, they just say so many wrong things that it not only destroys the flow of the conversation, but completely sidetracks the argument and makes everyone more mad.

you can buy an infinite number of mana potions.  if you know so little about the game that you don't know this, then why on god's earth are you commenting on balance?

What is rather humerous about this post is that you *actually think* being able to buy infinite potions is even relevant to the power of a character class. It's like saying infinite resting somehow cures the issues MotB had with warriors versus casters.

Tell me, Schyzm, with regards to 'knee-jerk defense fanbois' - do you revel in being one, or are you so out of touch with reality that you don't even realise? Your post above is about as knee-jerk as it can get. You haven't even mentioned the vast bulk of the quote.

I mean, potions... geez... i've heard some pathetic reasons for whines, but availability of potions reaches new lows.

Modifié par JaegerBane, 25 novembre 2009 - 07:42 .

[MerinTB]

Schyzm wrote...

this is why the knee-jerk defense fanbois need to stop arguing, they just say so many wrong things that it not only destroys the flow of the conversation, but completely sidetracks the argument and makes everyone more mad.

Actually, logical fallacies destroy conversations.  Such as ad hominem attacks.  Name-calling belittles yourself and your arguments.

you can buy an infinite number of mana potions.  if you know so little about the game that you don't know this, then why on god's earth are you commenting on balance?

In the time that it takes squishy Morrigan to drink a mana potion in my game she's often dead.

In fact, there's no party member who doesn't get killed more often than Morrigan.  I'm sure she's quite annoyed with me.

Oh, and when she's killed trying to drink that mana potion, the rest of my non-mages have to clean up the fight.  Like my one-time I fought the brood mother.  Her tentacles took Morrigan out of the fight fairly early, leaving it up to my rogue, Alistair and Dog to win the day.  Morrigan had managed to get a blizzard off to block one side where darkspawn kept emerging and froze the broodmother twice with cone of cold to let my rogue get some good hits in, but the mother still had over half health when Morrigan fell.


Just like mages have mana potions, warriors have healing potions.  Would stamina recovery potions make things more even with mages?  Sure, I guess, not dismissing that (there are stamina potions in Journeys, I believe) - but my bard song seems to do fine for that, plus having items that give you extra stamina and quicker stamina recovery.

[Sarakinoi]

Just play without using mana potions. That is what I do, and it makes the game more fun and challenging.



It also gives you a reason to put points into willpower, thus less spellpower and less spell strength, and forces you to think exactly what spells you should use because you won't be able to cast everything.



Precisely I don't use small, normal, and great mana potions. I only use the big expensive ones in those very hard situations/fights... their expensive price discourage me from using them unless absolutely necessary.

[MerinTB]

SheffSteel wrote...

About the truck-in-living-room analogy.
If you see a problem, the solution is not to avoid the problem and pretend it doesn't exist. Saying "if you think mages are broken, don't play mages" is to me the equivalent of saying, "if you're bothered about your living room having been destroyed by a truck, don't go in the living room". I don't want to abandon a third of the playable classes any more than I'd want to abandon a room in my house.

...

except your house is your property and someone not only damaged it but left their vehicle parked there.  This is breaking the law.  Probably the biggest investment of your life, the place you live, was just wrecked.  This is a big deal.

DAO is a luxury item - a game.  And you can play the mage if, as I've seen many people say, "you are insane if you don't!"  No one is stopping you from playing it or not.  No one is stopping you from having 3 mages or no mages in your party.  The game doesn't suddenly block any more content by you not playing a mage than it does if you don't play a dwarf or if you don't play a rogue.

Honestly, it is a horrible analogy.

It's like comparing the holocaust to health care reform, or a schoolyard bully to Hitler, or having a headache to having cancer.

Worse, it's like comparing someone having a better selection of Magic the Gathering cards in his deck than your deck to someone stealing your car.

[Sarakinoi]

Morrigan had managed to get a blizzard off to block one side where darkspawn kept emerging and froze the broodmother twice with cone of cold to let my rogue get some good hits in, but the mother still had over half health when Morrigan fell.

Are you aware that the more a spell is powerful, the more casting it will attrack agression to morrigan? Sometimes it is better strategy to stick to basic spells to not draw too much attention to morrigan, to let her survive and keep healing your party.

[Schyzm]

JaegerBane wrote...

Schyzm wrote...
this is why the knee-jerk defense fanbois need to stop arguing, they just say so many wrong things that it not only destroys the flow of the conversation, but completely sidetracks the argument and makes everyone more mad.

you can buy an infinite number of mana potions.  if you know so little about the game that you don't know this, then why on god's earth are you commenting on balance?

What is rather humerous about this post is that you *actually think* being able to buy infinite potions is even relevant to the power of a character class. It's like saying infinite resting somehow cures the issues MotB had with warriors versus casters.

Tell me, Schyzm, with regards to 'knee-jerk defense fanbois' - do you revel in being one, or are you so out of touch with reality that you don't even realise? Your post above is about as knee-jerk as it can get. You haven't even mentioned the vast bulk of the quote.

I mean, potions... geez... i've heard some pathetic reasons for whines, but availability of potions reaches new lows.

yes because you can only use potions out of combat.  and actually infinite potions is a very lazy gameplay mechanic in general.  even outside the stupid things it does for mages.  of course actual understanding is not something I expect from you, I see you're already all riled up and ready to defend your fanboism.  

[Schyzm]

MerinTB wrote...

SheffSteel wrote...

About the truck-in-living-room analogy.
If you see a problem, the solution is not to avoid the problem and pretend it doesn't exist. Saying "if you think mages are broken, don't play mages" is to me the equivalent of saying, "if you're bothered about your living room having been destroyed by a truck, don't go in the living room". I don't want to abandon a third of the playable classes any more than I'd want to abandon a room in my house.

...

except your house is your property and someone not only damaged it but left their vehicle parked there.  This is breaking the law.  Probably the biggest investment of your life, the place you live, was just wrecked.  This is a big deal.

DAO is a luxury item - a game.  And you can play the mage if, as I've seen many people say, "you are insane if you don't!"  No one is stopping you from playing it or not.  No one is stopping you from having 3 mages or no mages in your party.  The game doesn't suddenly block any more content by you not playing a mage than it does if you don't play a dwarf or if you don't play a rogue.

Honestly, it is a horrible analogy.

It's like comparing the holocaust to health care reform, or a schoolyard bully to Hitler, or having a headache to having cancer.

Worse, it's like comparing someone having a better selection of Magic the Gathering cards in his deck than your deck to someone stealing your car.

actually I thought it was a very apt analogy, and accurately conveys how people who don't want to "just not use it" feel about the vapidity and insipidness of that line of argument.  

[thisisme8]

ramatheson wrote...

I can't say for sure because I don't know you from Adam, but I would guess that you haven't been playing PC RPGs for more than a few years. I could be wrong. However, I remember back in the 80s and 90s, before MMOs were so mainstreamed, finding the perfect combos and classes that would "break" the game and basically enable you to be in god mode was one of the things many players strove to do. It was sort of a challenge to find the class or ability that "broke" the game.

I see the AWs as simply being that one class that does this. To me, it's just a nod to the old school-style of RPG developing by putting one way overpowered class in the game.

Yeah...  those were the days.  Things move so fast now, first the game's too hard, now it's too easy.  Rogues were useless a few weeks ago and now a DW Rogue is OP.  I can't wait for next week.

[JaegerBane]

Schyzm wrote...
yes because you can only use potions out of combat.  and actually infinite potions is a very lazy gameplay mechanic in general.  even outside the stupid things it does for mages.  of course actual understanding is not something I expect from you, I see you're already all riled up and ready to defend your fanboism.  

Riled up and ready? It's all I can do to decipher all your nonsense. I mean, look at what you've said above. Since when have lazy gameplay mechanics got anything to do with relative class strengths? Since when has buying equipment rendered the class itself overpowered?

I really don't mind a civilised debate. But the twin facts of you're throwing a tantrum and you don't seem to understand what does and doesn't fall under class consideration make me wonder whether it's worth continuing to answer you.

I mean, grow up for Christ's sake.

[MerinTB]

Sarakinoi wrote...

Morrigan had managed to get a blizzard off to block one side where darkspawn kept emerging and froze the broodmother twice with cone of cold to let my rogue get some good hits in, but the mother still had over half health when Morrigan fell.

Are you aware that the more a spell is powerful, the more casting it will attrack agression to morrigan? Sometimes it is better strategy to stick to basic spells to not draw too much attention to morrigan, to let her survive and keep healing your party.

My Morrigan has no healing spells.

*gasp* I know! 

And even though I unlocked Arcane Warrior I didn't give it to her and I'm not going to.

I understand aggro - but, as I said, I'm role-playing a story game.  We see a big bad and get surrounded Morrigan isn't going to start thinking, IC, "You know, to exploit the rules of the game, I need to use weaker spells to not draw aggro." but is actually, as I play my party, thinking "I'll show Alistair true power - I'll win this fight on my own!  Big spell here, freeze the monster there - what do you think of that, you wimpy little - ah, AH!, Alistair, I'm dying over here, come help ... UGH."



I have fun with games in my own "don't need to be the toughest out there" way, and I strategize as I think my characters would as they learn in battle.

This isn't a tactical strategy game where I'm trying to win fights the easiest, quickest way - for me at least.  If that's how you play it, so be it.  That's cool.

[Schyzm]

JaegerBane wrote...

Schyzm wrote...
yes because you can only use potions out of combat.  and actually infinite potions is a very lazy gameplay mechanic in general.  even outside the stupid things it does for mages.  of course actual understanding is not something I expect from you, I see you're already all riled up and ready to defend your fanboism.  

Riled up and ready? It's all I can do to decipher all your nonsense. I mean, look at what you've said above. Since when have lazy gameplay mechanics got anything to do with relative class strengths? Since when has buying equipment rendered the class itself overpowered?

I really don't mind a civilised debate. But the twin facts of you're throwing a tantrum and you don't seem to understand what does and doesn't fall under class consideration make me wonder whether it's worth continuing to answer you.

I mean, grow up for Christ's sake.

that's why I said "in general" and "even outside"  do you actually read?  or do you just think up what your next insult is going to be?  oh well I guess this is what intelligent forumers have to suffer though when they bring actual discussion to the table.  hyper aggressive fanbois.  

[JaegerBane]

MerinTB wrote...
My Morrigan has no healing spells.

*gasp* I know! 

And even though I unlocked Arcane Warrior I didn't give it to her and I'm not going to.

I understand aggro - but, as I said, I'm role-playing a story game.  We see a big bad and get surrounded Morrigan isn't going to start thinking, IC, "You know, to exploit the rules of the game, I need to use weaker spells to not draw aggro." but is actually, as I play my party, thinking "I'll show Alistair true power - I'll win this fight on my own!  Big spell here, freeze the monster there - what do you think of that, you wimpy little - ah, AH!, Alistair, I'm dying over here, come help ... UGH."



I have fun with games in my own "don't need to be the toughest out there" way, and I strategize as I think my characters would as they learn in battle.

This isn't a tactical strategy game where I'm trying to win fights the easiest, quickest way - for me at least.  If that's how you play it, so be it.  That's cool.

My own Morrigan didn't have healing spells too. I just couldn't really envisage her actually putting any effort into saving someone

[thisisme8]

I think it's getting close to an "End of line" from Mr. Woo. I feel it.



Jaeger and Schyzm, I'm pretty sure neither of you are going to relent, can we just let this thread die?

[MerinTB]

Schyzm wrote...

MerinTB wrote...

SheffSteel wrote...

About the truck-in-living-room analogy.
If you see a problem, the solution is not to avoid the problem and pretend it doesn't exist. Saying "if you think mages are broken, don't play mages" is to me the equivalent of saying, "if you're bothered about your living room having been destroyed by a truck, don't go in the living room". I don't want to abandon a third of the playable classes any more than I'd want to abandon a room in my house.

...

except your house is your property and someone not only damaged it but left their vehicle parked there.  This is breaking the law.  Probably the biggest investment of your life, the place you live, was just wrecked.  This is a big deal.

DAO is a luxury item - a game.  And you can play the mage if, as I've seen many people say, "you are insane if you don't!"  No one is stopping you from playing it or not.  No one is stopping you from having 3 mages or no mages in your party.  The game doesn't suddenly block any more content by you not playing a mage than it does if you don't play a dwarf or if you don't play a rogue.

Honestly, it is a horrible analogy.

It's like comparing the holocaust to health care reform, or a schoolyard bully to Hitler, or having a headache to having cancer.

Worse, it's like comparing someone having a better selection of Magic the Gathering cards in his deck than your deck to someone stealing your car.

actually I thought it was a very apt analogy, and accurately conveys how people who don't want to "just not use it" feel about the vapidity and insipidness of that line of argument.  

Yes, because property damage is what everyone thinks of when discussing options in a video game.

Go to someone who's had a truck run into their house and try telling them "I know what you are going through - this is exactly like how mages are overpowered in this video game I play."

That'll go over real well.

Do you even understand what an analogy is?

It's not "getting an F on a test" is bad and "having your whole family - wife, son, newborn daughter, die in a drunk driving accident" is bad therefor you can use one to compare to the other.

Sheesh.

[MerinTB]

JaegerBane wrote...

MerinTB wrote...
My Morrigan has no healing spells.

*gasp* I know! 

And even though I unlocked Arcane Warrior I didn't give it to her and I'm not going to.

I understand aggro - but, as I said, I'm role-playing a story game.  We see a big bad and get surrounded Morrigan isn't going to start thinking, IC, "You know, to exploit the rules of the game, I need to use weaker spells to not draw aggro." but is actually, as I play my party, thinking "I'll show Alistair true power - I'll win this fight on my own!  Big spell here, freeze the monster there - what do you think of that, you wimpy little - ah, AH!, Alistair, I'm dying over here, come help ... UGH."



I have fun with games in my own "don't need to be the toughest out there" way, and I strategize as I think my characters would as they learn in battle.

This isn't a tactical strategy game where I'm trying to win fights the easiest, quickest way - for me at least.  If that's how you play it, so be it.  That's cool.

My own Morrigan didn't have healing spells too. I just couldn't really envisage her actually putting any effort into saving someone

I know, right?

And does she seem to have the personality that she'd stand down, fade into the background, play it safe-
or
would she show off as flashy as she can and try and out-fight the rest of the party to prove her superiority?

[JaegerBane]

Schyzm wrote...
that's why I said "in general" and "even outside"  do you actually read?  or do you just think up what your next insult is going to be?  oh well I guess this is what intelligent forumers have to suffer though when they bring actual discussion to the table. hyper aggressive fanbois. 

Wake up. Look at your posts. Who is being the 'hyper aggressive fanboy' here? Who is the one who isn't actually reading what's being mentioned? Who is the one who's acting like a pre-schooler with hormonal imbalance?

Geez, this is so absurd it's funny...

[Schyzm]

MerinTB wrote...

Schyzm wrote...

MerinTB wrote...

SheffSteel wrote...

About the truck-in-living-room analogy.
If you see a problem, the solution is not to avoid the problem and pretend it doesn't exist. Saying "if you think mages are broken, don't play mages" is to me the equivalent of saying, "if you're bothered about your living room having been destroyed by a truck, don't go in the living room". I don't want to abandon a third of the playable classes any more than I'd want to abandon a room in my house.

...

except your house is your property and someone not only damaged it but left their vehicle parked there.  This is breaking the law.  Probably the biggest investment of your life, the place you live, was just wrecked.  This is a big deal.

DAO is a luxury item - a game.  And you can play the mage if, as I've seen many people say, "you are insane if you don't!"  No one is stopping you from playing it or not.  No one is stopping you from having 3 mages or no mages in your party.  The game doesn't suddenly block any more content by you not playing a mage than it does if you don't play a dwarf or if you don't play a rogue.

Honestly, it is a horrible analogy.

It's like comparing the holocaust to health care reform, or a schoolyard bully to Hitler, or having a headache to having cancer.

Worse, it's like comparing someone having a better selection of Magic the Gathering cards in his deck than your deck to someone stealing your car.

actually I thought it was a very apt analogy, and accurately conveys how people who don't want to "just not use it" feel about the vapidity and insipidness of that line of argument.  

Yes, because property damage is what everyone thinks of when discussing options in a video game.

Go to someone who's had a truck run into their house and try telling them "I know what you are going through - this is exactly like how mages are overpowered in this video game I play."

That'll go over real well.

Do you even understand what an analogy is?

It's not "getting an F on a test" is bad and "having your whole family - wife, son, newborn daughter, die in a drunk driving accident" is bad therefor you can use one to compare to the other.

Sheesh.

no one is hurt in the room nor in the game, they are both merely unacceptable situations.  what are you? the analogy ****?