89 réponses à ce sujet

[AllenShepard]

adneate wrote...

People throw the term around so much it's lost all meaning. Everyone and everything that succeeds in a work of fiction has been labeled a Mary Sue by someone and much like bias it is one of the most improperly used terms on the internet.

This.

It's a useless term to me now because it's been so warped. 
& Shepard is the main character so how could you discern him being the writer's favorite? He is the driving force in the fiction. 

[HTTP 404]

thats the main reason why I generally dont watch anime. the main characters are stupidly perfect. I would consider Shepard one but she/he isnt the worst out there by far.

[Schneidend]

404, you're demonstrating a clear and poignant example of how the term Mary Sue has gone so wrong through sheer saturation.



You make a gross generalization about anime protagonists who are "stupidly perfect" which I can refute with a dozen different examples. Take, for instance, Lelouche of Code Geass, who regularly acts like a complete and total monster, including striking his own sister blind, on his mad quest to achieve world peace.



Several reasons why Shepard isn't a Mary Sue have been pointed out in this thread why Shepard is, in fact, not a Mary Sue. Just being a badass who gets laid regularly isn't enough to constitute Suedom.

[HTTP 404]

just my opinion Schneidend, not saying my opinion is shared by many.

Also, mary sue is a loose definition where any protanganist can fit the bill unless they are considered an "anti-hero"

Modifié par HTTP 404, 09 janvier 2011 - 11:10 .

[Emyer]

Yeah, Sheps is kind of a Mary Sue, but such is the fate of the RPG protagonist, especially RPGs were you can make dialogue and story choices, since they are usually meant to be "blank-ish" slates that the player can fill, as such the writers don't have the same liberty they have with other NPCs, they can't give Shepard faults or idiosyncrasies since the player might not like/identify with them, I mean the ME3 trailer really drives up the Gary Stu factor doesn't it ? Trillions of beings in the Galaxy and Shepard is THE only one that can save all sentient life from extinction XD



That said, Mary Sue-ism is not an inherently bad trait, the goddamn Batman is a pretty big Gary Stu but he still is a very fun and enjoyable character.

[primero holodon]

depends on how you role play.

[didymos1120]

Perfect example of why a Mary Sue/Gary Stu isn't always a bad thing:

[thegreateski]

Yes. Yes (s)he is.

However . . . tropes are not bad.

Modifié par thegreateski, 09 janvier 2011 - 11:50 .

[Schneidend]

Mary Sues aren't riddled with self-doubt and don't grapple with straddling the line between good and evil to achieve justice. Batman does.



A Mary Sue doesn't grapple with the idea of killing his archnemesis every time he defeats them, they either do kill their archnemesis because the Mary Sue is totally justified in doing so (with the narrative bending over backwards to ensure this is true) or they don't because killing is just not okay.



Batman does. He knows it would be easier. They'd never harm anybody ever again. But, he's afraid that if he killed one criminal, he'd never be able to STOP killing criminals.

[Emyer]

Schneidend wrote...

Mary Sues aren't riddled with self-doubt and don't grapple with straddling the line between good and evil to achieve justice. Batman does.

A Mary Sue doesn't grapple with the idea of killing his archnemesis every time he defeats them, they either do kill their archnemesis because the Mary Sue is totally justified in doing so (with the narrative bending over backwards to ensure this is true) or they don't because killing is just not okay.

Batman does. He knows it would be easier. They'd never harm anybody ever again. But, he's afraid that if he killed one criminal, he'd never be able to STOP killing criminals.

Take the Mary Sue Litmus test with Batman and you'll be surprised


A Mary Sue does not need to check all the Mary Sue traits to be one and not all Mary Sues are of the same type(Seriously, go to TV Tropes and see how many types there are), Batman as the billionaire, playboy, ultra-badass with a tragic past ends up fitting enough criteria to be called a Mary Sue, but Batman is ****ing awesome, proof that not all tropes are bad and that Gary Stu-ism is not a bad criticism per se, when you're talking about the kind of Mary Sue-ism characters like Bella have however... <_<

[Tachai03]

I wouldn't say that Shepard is a sue. S/he's not perfect, or else no one would have died on Virmire, because Shepard is that good, yes? Or there wouldn't be renegade choices, because Shepard is lovable and everyone likes him. Including the Reapers, and Turian counselor.



The term is very watered down, anyway.

[Gleym]

In a word? Yes. Shepard is a massive Gary Stu/Mary Sue.

[Khayness]

Executing surrendered people and letting hostages die is so perfect!

[MajesticJazz]

Kahlee Sanders

[Squeeze the Fish]

MajesticJazz wrote...

Kahlee Sanders

THIS!!! A hundred times, THIS!!!

[Chuvvy]

Schneidend wrote...

I don't think so. Shepard's not the absolute most skilled person in the galaxy. Paragon Shepards are a bit naive, Renegade Shepards have issues.

Mary Sue-ism is about narrated perfection and lacking dimension, just being a powerful and important person isn't enough.

Well, Shepard is lacking demision. He sits there and passively gets ****ed by Kaiden/Ash on horizon, he never talks about Akuze, or shows any real emotion.

[Pwner1323]

Slidell505 wrote...

Well, Shepard is lacking demision. He sits there and passively gets ****ed by Kaiden/Ash on horizon, he never talks about Akuze, or shows any real emotion.

Obviously you didn't play the game right.

[BTG_01]

While there is no objective criteria for a Mary Sue, it's my opinion that Shepard does qualify. Shepard has earned the respect of ancient super-powerful machines, displays extreme charisma through charm/intimidate, and of course, Shepard is the only one who can save the galaxy. That said, it's not necessarily a bad thing. A Mary Sue can still be well written. As Emyer pointed out, many beloved characters like Batman can fall under that category. Hell, there are plenty of real people who probably qualify as Mary Sues.

[Chuvvy]

Pwner1323 wrote...

Slidell505 wrote...

Well, Shepard is lacking demision. He sits there and passively gets ****ed by Kaiden/Ash on horizon, he never talks about Akuze, or shows any real emotion.

Obviously you didn't play the game right.

Yeah, no I did. He just isn't allowed to. You can't bring up Akuze. And you can't argue back at Ash or Kaiden. And Shepard knows one emotion Anger. The anger varries sure, but it's just anger.

[Gleym]

Khayness wrote...

Executing surrendered people and letting hostages die is so perfect!

I like how you don't know what a Mary Sue is.

[Archereon]

Yes, Shepard is technically a Mary Sue, particularly Paragon Shepard.  However, in legitimately escapist works, such as romance novels, the majority of comic books, and video games, that's perfectly acceptable.

(before you complain, video games are escapist. No they cannot, in the industry's current form, be considered art within any of the most prominent definitions of the term.)

Why am I saying this?

Paragon Shepard is always right.  Seriously.  S/he convinces everyone to do the right thing, gets all the happiest outcomes, and saves the galaxy despite being a wide eyed idealist in the face of a galactic apocalypse.

Renegade Shepard, the other side of the mary sue/gary stu coin, can do whatever he wants and get away with it.  No consequences for his jerkassness, none that really matter at least.  He takes what he wants, flips off his crew in ways that would raise some eyebrows in any real military force (while strictness is completely acceptable, the pure sadism of renegade Shepard is not).  And in the end, we know he'll get just as happy as an ending (for him) as Paragon Shepard will get for the galaxy.

Neutral Shepard isn't a Mary Sue, just an incredibly bland character that nobody plays as.

Modifié par Archereon, 10 janvier 2011 - 03:07 .

[Ryzaki]

...Renegade Shep is the Jerk Sue to Paragon Shep's plain old suedom (or purity suedom).

That's all. Renegade doesn't make Shep less of a sue. Just a different kind.


Though really mary Sue =/= bad character.

My favorite character of all time is L and he was pretty damn sueish.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 10 janvier 2011 - 03:11 .

[The Unfallen]

 Is Shepard a Mary Sue? No. Is this guy?

...just read it and you will find the epitome of a modern day Mary Sue. But I still believe Commander Shepard could kick his ass.

[Spornicus]

Shepard is not a Mary Sue, Shepard is the protagonist of a video game. What, you want to deliberately fail missions throughout the game? That would make for a terrible game.

[Archereon]

Spornicus wrote...

Shepard is not a Mary Sue, Shepard is the protagonist of a video game. What, you want to deliberately fail missions throughout the game? That would make for a terrible game.

Making us (gamers in general, since protagonist invincibility is almost universal in video games] pay a higher cost for our victories, or making it possible for us to [canonically] suffer the occassional defeat would do wonders for the idea that a video game character=a mary sue=acceptable because its an escapist media.