42 réponses à ce sujet

[Tony Gunslinger]

Who loves SMGs??? Who is brave enough to use these tiny weapons under cloak or charge and pound enemies to death with insect bites??

I think there are some misconceptions about SMGs, so made a video in which I've tried all the SMGs in the same fight. This isn't so much a comparison to determine which is the best, because it'll largely depend on playstyle, and besides, all three runs were finished about the same amount of time. But, I do think the video shows each models' strengths and weaknesses when you apply real gameplay risks, and not just using a test of pure DPS. So here we go:

Cryo Submachine Gun Battle!

SMG Charging Vanguard!

Cryo Tempest Vanguard Action!

Cryo Shuriken Vanguard Action!

SMG Shield Damage Comparison

Here's my take on SMGs as an Infiltrator going in for CQC:

- Locust's small reticule is bad at close range when enemies can still move around. Punch to stagger before shooting is recommended. It also deals the slowest damage rate vs shields, but it is better suited for landing headshots at a safer distance, enough to freeze common goons but not kill. Meshes well with melee and/or power combos.

- Tempest is great at point blank range, but is meh at anything over a few meters away. In order to get the most out of the Tempest, you must empty the entire clip, which doesn't happen often for me. Its huge expanding reticule forces you to use aim in order to shrink it, so you move and turn slower when you do that. Ideal situation for the Tempest is when enemies are clustered (as seen in video), so you can cast a squad Overload and then spray the entire screen. Can go one-on-one against tougher enemies (ie the Vanguard) and can deal the most shield damage vs. big guys like YMIR but only at closer distances.

- Shuriken deals the fastest damage rate of all SMGs at close range and still accurate enough to things when retreating, but it is hindered by a tiny clip. It is best suited for fast hard strikes under cloak, taking out common goons, and meshes well with melee and/or casting power combos.

Thoughts, criticisms, opinions?

Modifié par Tony Gunslinger, 30 janvier 2011 - 05:34 .

[Praetor Knight]

That was cool, I've never tried moving like that.

Relating to the SMG's, I've used the Tempest the least and I've come to like the Shuriken with the hidden feature it has. I tend to stay at long to mid-range so the Locust has been my favored SMG so far, I even wish that I can use them as a Soldier in ME3, one can hope right?

[Aynien]

- Locust's small reticule is bad at close range when enemies can still move around. Punch to stagger before shooting is recommended. It also deals the slowest damage rate vs shields, but it is better suited for landing headshots at a safer distance, enough to freeze common goons but not kill. Meshes well with melee and/or power combos.

I just wanted to point out that the locust has the lowest rate against shield, because it's allround weapon, it does the same rate against shields and armor. It may not be as usefull as an Heavy pistol, but it can save your life when you run out of mags for it(HP).

[Tony Gunslinger]

Praetor Shepard wrote...

That was cool, I've never tried moving like that.
Relating to the SMG's, I've used the Tempest the least and I've come to like the Shuriken with the hidden feature it has. I tend to stay at long to mid-range so the Locust has been my favored SMG so far, I even wish that I can use them as a Soldier in ME3, one can hope right?

Yeah, I often switch back and forth between the Tempest and the Shuriken, but Shuriken most of the time. With the caster classes, I usually use the Locust because it's easier to shoot an auto-firing weapon when you time it with a power in one salvo.

Modifié par Tony Gunslinger, 09 janvier 2011 - 09:34 .

[Tony Gunslinger]

Aynien wrote...

- Locust's small reticule is bad at close range when enemies can still move around. Punch to stagger before shooting is recommended. It also deals the slowest damage rate vs shields, but it is better suited for landing headshots at a safer distance, enough to freeze common goons but not kill. Meshes well with melee and/or power combos.

I just wanted to point out that the locust has the lowest rate against shield, because it's allround weapon, it does the same rate against shields and armor. It may not be as usefull as an Heavy pistol, but it can save your life when you run out of mags for it(HP).

Very true, but I think the Locust's value has been exaggerated when people start talking about performance. If you've played to the strengths and weakness of your weapons, you'll end up with similar results no matter what you're using.

Modifié par Tony Gunslinger, 09 janvier 2011 - 09:53 .

[Bozorgmehr]

Aynien wrote...

I just wanted to point out that the locust has the lowest rate against shield, because it's allround weapon, it does the same rate against shields and armor. It may not be as usefull as an Heavy pistol, but it can save your life when you run out of mags for it(HP).

Yeah, the video only demonstates how the SMGs perform against shield/barrier (and health) - the Locust receives a smaller multiplier but has the same multiplier against armor (vs no multiplier for the Shuriken and Tempest). The locust is also a good weapon for medium-long range fighting (the Shuriken and Tempest are pretty bad for long-range engagements). All in all the most all-round of them hence the reason why it's highly rated as secondary weapon - it's pretty effective in all circumstances.

The Shuriken and Tempest have an edge vs shield/barrier at short range. Didn't know the difference would be so small - I always thought the Tempest was more effective in CQC, but the video shows the Shuriken is just as deadly. And you dodged a YMIR rocket, can't remember I've ever done that

[Tony Gunslinger]

Bozorgmehr wrote...

Yeah, the video only demonstates how the SMGs perform against shield/barrier (and health) - the Locust receives a smaller multiplier but has the same multiplier against armor (vs no multiplier for the Shuriken and Tempest). The locust is also a good weapon for medium-long range fighting (the Shuriken and Tempest are pretty bad for long-range engagements). All in all the most all-round of them hence the reason why it's highly rated as secondary weapon - it's pretty effective in all circumstances.

The Shuriken and Tempest have an edge vs shield/barrier at short range. Didn't know the difference would be so small - I always thought the Tempest was more effective in CQC, but the video shows the Shuriken is just as deadly. And you dodged a YMIR rocket, can't remember I've ever done that

I think the Locust the best weapon to use if you've specialzed in SR or SG, because it really is an in-betweener weapon, and it makes SR/SG builds more complete. If you've specialized in AR, I think the Locust is redunant. But just for the Infiltrator class, having cryo ammo and the ability to cloak gives the class more options on SMGs, even if you're using the Widow. Change it up, I say, and infiltrate for real! :ph34r::ph34r:

Edit: and yes, the Shuriken's rate of damage is higher (but small clip), and It's reticule size makes it ideal to strike around the 1-2 meter range, whereas the Tempest's reticule is so large when shooting from the hip, you'll have to be touching the enemy to get every bullet in (maybe a Vanguard benefits from this). Using aim to shrink the Tempest's reticule slows down your movement, whereas with the Shuriken you can still shoot from the hip, charge in, and quickly swing to a nearby cover. The Tempest works best on a cluster of enemies, sort of like the Viper and Scimitar in a way. But you'll have to commit longer in shooting, which I rarely find myself doing.

Modifié par Tony Gunslinger, 09 janvier 2011 - 10:56 .

[jwalker]

Impressive work with the Shuriken, man... and yeah, the Locust is the suckiest SMG for CQC....although, I tend to use the Locust on Shepard, just for the enemies I can't get close to. I use the SMG as support weapon, so the Locust is good enough since is average for everything.

[mcsupersport]

On Vanguards the Tempest is a beast. For my last run, with it, I would charge and then unload a clip in which it was time to reload and Charge was ready again. The clip size was perfect in it meshed real well with Charge timer, and being Vanguard you were up close. It made a nice alternative to using SG all the time, and seemingly worked better in some situations for me who uses Eviserator.



For the most part I have liked the Shuriken and it seemed to be a real good gun to use until you get the more general purpose Locust, on most of my plays.

[Tony Gunslinger]

mcsupersport wrote...

On Vanguards the Tempest is a beast. For my last run, with it, I would charge and then unload a clip in which it was time to reload and Charge was ready again. The clip size was perfect in it meshed real well with Charge timer, and being Vanguard you were up close. It made a nice alternative to using SG all the time, and seemingly worked better in some situations for me who uses Eviserator.

For the most part I have liked the Shuriken and it seemed to be a real good gun to use until you get the more general purpose Locust, on most of my plays.

I would love to see videos of a Vanguard using the Tempest like that, it's something different

@jwalker Don't get me wrong, the Locust is a very good weapon and can still handle a bit of CQC, just not as well as the others. I admit, using SMGs for close-up action is a very specialized way of playing, but I think it's very rewarding and a very good tactic to use. I'm surprised that Kasumi was able to survive as long as she did in the last round, I usually give up on trying to keep her alive. I think it's because I was moving fast enough that the enemies never established proper offensive positions against anyone. Vanguards should be able to clear this room much faster because of this.

[ryoldschool]

That was a cool video, never played that mission like that - good ideas for my next time. Thanks for posting.

[Kronner]

Locust + Cryo ammo rarely freezes enemies (unless you shoot their health and then wait for a while), they usually die before they have the chance to freeze. With Tempest you can see they start freezing sooner.

Good video, thanks for sharing

Modifié par Kronner, 10 janvier 2011 - 07:21 .

[Tony Gunslinger]

Kronner wrote...

Locust + Cryo ammo rarely freezes enemies (unless you shoot their health and then wait for a while), they usually die before they have the chance to freeze. With Tempest you can see they start freezing sooner.

Good video, thanks for sharing

Really? It's been a completely experience with me, especially early in the game. Shields go down fast, but health goes down slooow, perhaps the buffed up enemy health on NG+ is the difference. Headshots from the Locust does add a lot more damage, though. When I use cryo ammo on the Tempest, it looks like I'm trying to drown them with whip cream

[Kronner]

Tony Gunslinger wrote...

Really? It's been a completely experience with me, especially early in the game. Shields go down fast, but health goes down slooow, perhaps the buffed up enemy health on NG+ is the difference. Headshots from the Locust does add a lot more damage, though. When I use cryo ammo on the Tempest, it looks like I'm trying to drown them with whip cream

I played around with SMG/Pistols and squad Cryo ammo as a Vanguard. Tempest froze the enemy before (s)he died (and consequently provided a cover) more often that Locust. Predator Pistol was pretty good too.

[Tony Gunslinger]

mcsupersport wrote...

On Vanguards the Tempest is a beast. For my last run, with it, I would charge and then unload a clip in which it was time to reload and Charge was ready again. The clip size was perfect in it meshed real well with Charge timer, and being Vanguard you were up close. It made a nice alternative to using SG all the time, and seemingly worked better in some situations for me who uses Eviserator.

Well, since I haven't seen any videos of a charging Tempest Vanguard, I decided to make one:

Cryo Tempest Vanguard in Action!

LotSB was the only place I could think of that would make it work. Disclaimer: this is not the best way to use your Vanguard, but it was sure fun as hell.

@Kronner, that's been my take on it lately, just charge with whatever. it's too bad you can't charge with farming equipment.

Modifié par Tony Gunslinger, 28 janvier 2011 - 05:55 .

[The Spamming Troll]

ha thats alot of charging. why dont they just call the vangaurd, the chargegaurd?



man i hate you can charge through walls but i still have to aim throw around cover.

[Gladegunner]

You guys know that this would be also applicable to Infiltrators? Charge offers more instantaneous but less adaptable movement similar to cloak, and they both have SMG/Cryo.

[Locutus_of_BORG]

I don't think it applies exactly to infiltrators, unless you mean the part about closing in to shoot. Vanguards get a regeneration bonus (to put it lightly) from charging, whereas Infiltrators get the opposite.The cloak's advantage is mainly just stealth, so it would be used for maneuvering, lining up shots and for dodging aggro.

I just started up a cqc infiltrator last night, and I envision myself having to play the angles more deliberately than I would as a Vanguard... so cover, cutting-the-pie, hit & run, fire & maneuver etc, rather than charge, shoot, charge.

Modifié par Locutus_of_BORG, 28 janvier 2011 - 03:52 .

[JaegerBane]

Tony Gunslinger wrote...
I think the Locust the best weapon to use if you've specialzed in SR or SG, because it really is an in-betweener weapon, and it makes SR/SG builds more complete. If you've specialized in AR, I think the Locust is redunant. But just for the Infiltrator class, having cryo ammo and the ability to cloak gives the class more options on SMGs, even if you're using the Widow. Change it up, I say, and infiltrate for real! :ph34r::ph34r:

I'm not sure I'd go so far as to say it's redundant. If you're using an AR with limited ammo (primarily the Mattock, but to a lesser extent the Vindicator) then having the Locust to hand gives you a lot of freedom in firefights. Particularly if you go for headshots. Running out of ammo for your main weapon doesn't even affect your tactics under such situations.

I'd agree the Tempest is probably the more balanced option under such situations, but as it's a lot more specialised you don't really have anything to fall back on when your Mattock runs out (and no, the Predator isn't really up to this kind of use).

Modifié par JaegerBane, 28 janvier 2011 - 04:25 .

[jwalker]

Tony Gunslinger wrote...

[...]
Don't get me wrong, the Locust is a very good weapon and can still handle a bit of CQC, just not as well as the others. I admit, using SMGs for close-up action is a very specialized way of playing, but I think it's very rewarding and a very good tactic to use. I'm surprised that Kasumi was able to survive as long as she did in the last round, I usually give up on trying to keep her alive. I think it's because I was moving fast enough that the enemies never established proper offensive positions against anyone. Vanguards should be able to clear this room much faster because of this.

You should have said a "skilled Vanguard "
I tried. She died on me once.But I didn't use her abilities, just wanted to deal with shields with only SMGs


Surprisingly, the Shuriken was the best there, at least for me. The only problem with it, is having a smaller clip, kinda of unforgiving...

Sorry for the overlap with your first vid but this a nice place to test this. And you can change your weapons loadout easily.

Submachine gun charging Vanguard

Modifié par jwalker, 28 janvier 2011 - 04:58 .

[jlb524]

Pretty cool vids...I don't use SMGs much but perhaps I will next time I play.

[Tony Gunslinger]

jwalker wrote...
You should have said a "skilled Vanguard "
I tried. She died on me once.But I didn't use her abilities, just wanted to deal with shields with only SMGs

Surprisingly, the Shuriken was the best there, at least for me. The only problem with it, is having a smaller clip, kinda of unforgiving...

Sorry for the overlap with your first vid but this a nice place to test this. And you can change your weapons loadout easily.

Submachine gun charging Vanguard

Man, that's a pretty awesome video, great way to show all three SMGs in action.

I was going to write about how using cloak to flank an enemy is tactically the same as charge, it's that just charge does it much faster. And yeah, the shuriken will take out shields faster but the small clip means you gotta be an expert at it. I think that's what makes all the SMG pretty balanced. Updating the OP to add this video

JaegerBane wrote...
I'm not sure I'd go so far as to say it's redundant. If you're using an AR with limited ammo (primarily the Mattock, but to a lesser extent the Vindicator) then having the Locust to hand gives you a lot of freedom in firefights. Particularly if you go for headshots. Running out of ammo for your main weapon doesn't even affect your tactics under such situations.
I'd agree the Tempest is probably the more balanced option under such situations, but as it's a lot more specialised you don't really have anything to fall back on when your Mattock runs out (and no, the Predator isn't really up to this kind of use).

You're right, redundant may be too strong of a word for it. I understand that with AR and Locust, you get to play with the same tactics and style of play longer. But with AR and either the Shuriken or Tempest, you get to switch tactics, which is what I usually end up prefer doing. If I'm using the AR 'the right way' (ugh I hate that term) then I should be switching to the SMG or any weapon because it's an advantage to so and not because it's a backup. But this where the conversation begins to split hairs about what is 'better'... being able to play with the same tactics or being able to do different things. Both of them have merits, but as of now I can't make a call on what's really better because I chose to use the Viper and the Mattock for my infiltrator precisely for the same reasons as you.

[JaegerBane]

Tony Gunslinger wrote...
You're right, redundant may be too strong of a word for it. I understand that with AR and Locust, you get to play with the same tactics and style of play longer. But with AR and either the Shuriken or Tempest, you get to switch tactics, which is what I usually end up prefer doing. If I'm using the AR 'the right way' (ugh I hate that term) then I should be switching to the SMG or any weapon because it's an advantage to so and not because it's a backup. But this where the conversation begins to split hairs about what is 'better'... being able to play with the same tactics or being able to do different things. Both of them have merits, but as of now I can't make a call on what's really better because I chose to use the Viper and the Mattock for my infiltrator precisely for the same reasons as you.

Yeah, I've heard of the Viper/Mattock combo before. Honestly, I've never been sure whether I like that combo, but with regards to the thread topic if you've gone for that, then the Tempest is a much better compliment to the selection of stuff.

Ironically the best AR I've seen the Locust work with is the Revenant on my modded Adept. It's a very potent combo, as it gives you the ability to sustain gunfire on a target (or many targets) from any range for quite a while. It's a shame it's not possible in the unmodded game, but hey, this is why I play on PC

[Tony Gunslinger]

JaegerBane wrote...
Ironically the best AR I've seen the Locust work with is the Revenant on my modded Adept. It's a very potent combo, as it gives you the ability to sustain gunfire on a target (or many targets) from any range for quite a while. It's a shame it's not possible in the unmodded game, but hey, this is why I play on PC

Wait.. so basically you love the mini-Mattock / mega-Tempest combo??


------

Ok, so here is a video I've done to test shield damage with the SMGs:

SMG Shield Damage Comparison

And anyone saw the any of the videos in this thread would automatically have cruz1ale's SMG Damage Comparison video on the related list, which I've seen many times. In his test however, he did not have the Shield Piercing upgrades, had distruptor ammo against a Geth, and counted reload times. My test is specially about shield damage, so Shield Piercing is there and no ammo powers. If you actually took out the reload time on the Shuriken segment, it beats out the Tempest in pure DPS. This is important to note: how and why you're using the weapon is going depend on what you think is better. Because I can drop shields faster with the Shuriken, I can either rely on Cryo ammo OR use a power for instant CC sooner than relying on the Tempest alone to kill it. That's what I prefer, and so Shurkien is better for such situations, and it's not as inaccurate as people claim. I did this test so that people understand the cold hard facts about the SMGs: they're diverse and in the end, all balanced.

Addendum:
And just for the sake of it, I re-did the Vanguard run with the Shuriken.

Cryo Shuriken Vanguard in Action

Because, hey, why the hell not.

Modifié par Tony Gunslinger, 30 janvier 2011 - 05:38 .