42 réponses à ce sujet

[Tony Gunslinger]

m14567 wrote...

Interesting stuff, thanks for sharing. I find the shuriken to be even more woeful at range than the tempest. I usually take the tempest on Vanguard and Infiltrator but I think I'll switch to the shuriken on the Infiltrator to test it out a bit more.

The Tempest is like a shotgun in that you have be a point blank range to get max damage. Even if you're little far away, some of the bullets will miss. For the test, I tried at least 20 times with the Tempest, and generally 10 or tries with the other guns to get the best results on the video. The close range multiplier is dynamic, so I had to make sure I was really really close for all of the shooting. Even the Locust failed to break the VI connector in one clip if you're a bit farther away.

Modifié par Tony Gunslinger, 30 janvier 2011 - 06:22 .

[Autoclave]

Tempest is a beast. I am not sure, but I remember to strip praetorian of its shields on insanity with one tempest clip (all upgrades and warp ammo).

[Locutus_of_BORG]

Tony Gunslinger wrote...

m14567 wrote...

Interesting stuff, thanks for sharing. I find the shuriken to be even more woeful at range than the tempest. I usually take the tempest on Vanguard and Infiltrator but I think I'll switch to the shuriken on the Infiltrator to test it out a bit more.

The Tempest is like a shotgun in that you have be a point blank range to get max damage. Even if you're little far away, some of the bullets will miss. For the test, I tried at least 20 times with the Tempest, and generally 10 or tries with the other guns to get the best results on the video. The close range multiplier is dynamic, so I had to make sure I was really really close for all of the shooting. Even the Locust failed to break the VI connector in one clip if you're a bit farther away.

Tempest is more like the Revenant, as far as ranging and handling goes. It won't go toe-to-toe with shotguns at point blank range, though it can hold its own decently. The best range imo is between regular assault rifle range and shotgun range... maybe about 5-6 meters in game terms.. just enough to get your shots in, while far enough to dodge some shotgun pellets.

[jwalker]

Tony Gunslinger wrote...

[...]

And just for the sake of it, I re-did the Vanguard run with the Shuriken.

Cryo Shuriken Vanguard in Action

Because, hey, why the hell not.

Nice

Overload + Singularity  + Squad cryo owned the goons in the parking lot

[NYG1991]

I kinda treat the shuriken as a shotgun on my vanguard. The reticle doesn't change whether your aiming or not. Combined with melee and inferno it's good for close battles with multiple enemies. It's also got a pretty good fire rate if you're quick onthe trigger

[implodinggoat]

Very interesting. I'm surprised the Shuriken is so effective, I knew you could improve its rate of fire by rapidly pulsing the trigger (as with the Vindicator, Viper and Mattock) but I still thought the Tempest and Locust totally outclassed it.

That said I still think the Locust is overpowered, at the very least it should have like half as much ammo as it does so that you have to take advantage of its accuracy.  Its not so bad before you get the SMG ammo upgrade; but once you do you can unload with that thing for eternity from a safe distance.

On a side note, I usually play Soldier and I'd really love it if Soldiers had an option to equip an SMG in place of their shotgun. While I do enjoy whipping out my shotty from time to time if you're using a Revenant it becomes redundant and having an accurate gun like the Locust would be far more useful, while if you're using a more accurate AR like the Vindicator or Mattock it would be nice to have a gun with a deep ammo well like the Tempest for dealing with large waves of charging enemies who don't drop ammo like husks or bullet sponges who drop less ammo then they take to kill like Krogan, YMIR mechs or Praetorians.

Modifié par implodinggoat, 01 février 2011 - 02:49 .

[implodinggoat]

Oh yeah in the future, I find the best test for comparing the damage output of weapons is on that planet where the YMIR mechs are destroying the supply crates.



The YMIRs only come at you one at a time with no backup and since their shields and armor can both absorb lots of damage it gives you a good indicator of the sustained power of a weapon thus helping show the upsides of a gun with a larger clip like the Tempest.

[Shockwave81]

I don't know if it's just me, but short controlled bursts with the Tempest seem to work extremely well. I'm almost finished my current play-through with an Engineer and I've had to check the difficulty a few times to make sure it's still on insanity.

[implodinggoat]

Shockwave81 wrote...

I don't know if it's just me, but short controlled bursts with the Tempest seem to work extremely well. I'm almost finished my current play-through with an Engineer and I've had to check the difficulty a few times to make sure it's still on insanity.

Yeah you can actually achieve decent accuraccy with the Tempest which is in my opinion one of the best balanced and most fun to use guns in the game.

If you look at the gameplay files you'll see that the Tempest actually has pretty good initial accuraccy (about the same as the Shuriken) and that it's innaccuraccy is entirely a result of its high recoil and muzzle climb.  As a result you can achieve suprisingly good accuraccy with the Tempest if you burst fire a shot aimed just below your target's head which as a result of the gun's muzzle climb will basically rake a burst of fire across the face of your enemy.

The combination of decent initial accuraccy and very high recoil makes it a very unique weapon and though its definitely at its most effective at closer ranges where you can empty an entire clip into an enemy with experience you can still land effective shots at medium range.

[Locutus_of_BORG]

^The Shuriken surprised me too initally with its shield-busting ability. Still, I don't really like its small clip size or its dps vs. health/armor.



Even though the Locust's magazine is smaller than the Shuriken's, it still seems to get the job done in any situation, while with the Shuriken that doesn't seem to be the case.

[implodinggoat]

Locutus_of_BORG wrote...

^The Shuriken surprised me too initally with its shield-busting ability. Still, I don't really like its small clip size or its dps vs. health/armor.

Even though the Locust's magazine is smaller than the Shuriken's, it still seems to get the job done in any situation, while with the Shuriken that doesn't seem to be the case.

I'd actually like to see the Shuriken redifined as a pistol for ME3.

For starters it looks like a pistol and its relatively deep ammo supply and full auto capacity would make a nice compliment for a soldier using a high accuraccy assault rifle with limited ammo like the Vindicator or Mattock.  Likewise I think the Predator and Carnifex should both have more ammo and the Predator should also inflict a bit more damage per shot.

In the Shuriken's place I'd like to see an SMG that operates like a slightly less accurate Avenger (though not as weak as an Avenger which is a sadly underpowered yet fun to use weapon) as your starting SMG and a low ammo and high accuraccy carbine with a higher armor modifier that operates like a less powerful Vindicator added as an additional long range SMG option.

As for the Locust it needs to be toned down by giving it a little recoil, a high movement penalty (to make it a gun that you need to aim and fire and a less effective run and gun weapon than other SMGs) and significantly less ammo so that you need to take advantage of its accuraccy.  Oh yeah and it obviously needs a more satisfying gunfire sound effect.

The Tempest on the other hand is perfect as is.

[Locutus_of_BORG]

^You know, the Tempest isn't that far off from an improved Avenger

A rebalancing would be good for ME3 though

Modifié par Locutus_of_BORG, 02 février 2011 - 10:06 .

[Dirty2007]

Tempest all the way.. The only SMG that is both effective and deadly, with a big clip size

[implodinggoat]

Locutus_of_BORG wrote...

^You know, the Tempest isn't that far off from an improved Avenger

A rebalancing would be good for ME3 though

You're right.

I think the damage output of the Tempest would be about perfect for an improved Avenger if it was combined with the diminished recoil and greater accuraccy of the Avenger.  I mean assault rifles should be better than their SMG equivalents or else it doesn't make sense to require special training to use them.

Giving the Avenger the damage output of the Tempest while retaining all of the Avenger's other properties would make it fit perfectly with the other assault rifles.  That way it couldn't deliver damage as rapidly as the more accurate but ammo thirsty Vindicator or Mattock; but could still lay down solid damage over a longer period when you unload a whole clip (like the Tempest), likewise it still couldn't touch the Revenant's raw power at close range; but would let you lay down decent damage with greater accuraccy by burst firing it.

[Locutus_of_BORG]

Another thing BW should probably do is make the range modifiers stricter... say, if Pistols and SMGs were totally restricted to short / short-medium range, that would give Assault Rifles another leg up. However, ME2's fights are mostly pretty close range (even sniping is mostly at 40m), so I dunno exactly how well this would pan out.

Modifié par Locutus_of_BORG, 03 février 2011 - 02:30 .

[implodinggoat]

Locutus_of_BORG wrote...

Another thing BW should probably do is make the range modifiers stricter... say, if Pistols and SMGs were totally restricted to short / short-medium range, that would give Assault Rifles another leg up. However, ME2's fights are mostly pretty close range (even sniping is mostly at 40m), so I dunno exactly how well this would pan out.

I think they should do that for the squad and enemy AI so that you don't have Thane or Garrus busting out point blank headshots with their sniper rifle (ideally they'd also make allies switch weapons automatically as the situation demands); but for the player I think the gun's accuraccy and recoil is the best way to limit them. 

The player really doesn't need damage modifiers to realize that the Revenant is crap at long range or that trying to use the Widow point blank is a bad idea.

[jbblue05]

Tempest is a beast of a weapon and I find it more fun than the locust and shuriken

[Locutus_of_BORG]

^^The range modifier idea was just to gimp the Locust a bit without fundamentally changing how the gun works. A less accurate Locust could just become a gimped Tempest, but it'd still be better than most of the Assault Rifles out there.





^Yes, the Tempest is the most fun SMG by far, imo!