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#226
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punt172o wrote...

Thermal Clips Explained

........ Learning from the Geth.........

It was long thought that personal weapons had plateaued in performance, but the geth proved all theories wrong. Mathematically reviewing their combat logs, the geth found that in an age of kinetic barriers, most firefights were won by the side who could put the most rounds down-range the fastest. But combatants were forced to deliberately shoot slower to manage waste heat, or pause as their weapons vented.

To eliminate this inefficiency, the geth adopted detachable heat sinks known as thermal clips. [/b]While organic arms manufacturers were initially doubtful this would produce a net gain, a well-trained soldier can eject
and swap thermal clips in under a second. Faced with superior enemy firepower, organic armies soon followed the geth's lead, and today's battlefields are littered with these thermal clips.
Conclusion

The only problem is, I didn't have to slow down while shooting in ME1 because I had high-end guns.  I could put more rounds down-range in ME1 than i could in ME2 because I didn't have to reload.   It's not my problem if the mercs i'm fighting can't afford spectre gear, I want my old guns back.

Modifié par bobobo878, 10 janvier 2011 - 09:48 .


#227
Jorina Leto

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didymos1120 wrote...
It does because they've entirely, physically replaced the old system with the clip system.  There's no way to cool it without a clip.


Which proves them to be the greatest idiots in the history of the galaxy. And Shepard thinks they have a chance angainst the reapers?

Yeah this makes sense...























NOT.

#228
Jorina Leto

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Pwner1323 wrote...
Next you'll argue that lightsabers are unreal.



Star Wars is Fantasy with star ships. And because it is Fantasy are acceptable.

#229
Bamboozalist

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Jorina Leto wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...
It does because they've entirely, physically replaced the old system with the clip system.  There's no way to cool it without a clip.


Which proves them to be the greatest idiots in the history of the galaxy. And Shepard thinks they have a chance angainst the reapers?

Yeah this makes sense...























NOT.


How dare they not want to completely destroy their weapons!

#230
didymos1120

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Jorina Leto wrote...

Pwner1323 wrote...
Next you'll argue that lightsabers are unreal.



Star Wars is Fantasy with star ships. And because it is Fantasy are acceptable.


So then you agree that rapidly cooling thermal clips would be unrealistic fantasy? 

#231
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didymos1120 wrote...

Jorina Leto wrote...

Pwner1323 wrote...
Next you'll argue that lightsabers are unreal.



Star Wars is Fantasy with star ships. And because it is Fantasy are acceptable.


So then you agree that rapidly cooling thermal clips would be unrealistic fantasy? 

     Rapidly cooling thermal clips make more sense to me than the idea of reducing the mass of all matter in an area by running an electric current through dark matter.
     Seriously, if FTL speed has been invented in this time period, is it too hard to believe that rapidly cooling materials have been invented as well?

#232
Praetor Knight

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bobobo878 wrote...

     Rapidly cooling thermal clips make more sense to me than the idea of reducing the mass of all matter in an area by running an electric current through dark matter.
     Seriously, if FTL speed has been invented in this time period, is it too hard to believe that rapidly cooling materials have been invented as well?


Well they can also be affected by Sabotage.

and how do they cool in Vacuum or in an area with high ambient temperatures, where does the heat go in such a short time?

#233
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Praetor Shepard wrote...

bobobo878 wrote...

     Rapidly cooling thermal clips make more sense to me than the idea of reducing the mass of all matter in an area by running an electric current through dark matter.
     Seriously, if FTL speed has been invented in this time period, is it too hard to believe that rapidly cooling materials have been invented as well?


Well they can also be affected by Sabotage.

and how do they cool in Vacuum or in an area with high ambient temperatures, where does the heat go in such a short time?


The same way as space ships.  As Engineer Adams explained, spaceships can cool down in space by emitting the energy in the form of infrared radiation.  If Bioware gave small-arms the same ability, it wouldn't be the most unrealistic science in the series.

#234
Bamboozalist

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Mass Effect is just as much fantasy as Star Wars, just because you explain stuff doesn't make it work. Science Fiction is just another world for Action Adventure/Fantasy with futuristic crap.

#235
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bobobo878 wrote...

The same way as space ships.  As Engineer Adams explained, spaceships can cool down in space by emitting the energy in the form of infrared radiation.  If Bioware gave small-arms the same ability, it wouldn't be the most unrealistic science in the series.


Yes because it's totally a sound military decision to have soldiers carrying around weapons that emit a form of radiation that can blind you every time they fire. Emitting radiation in space where things are generally built to be protected from it and doing it on the battlefield planet side are two different things.

#236
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Bamboozalist wrote...

Mass Effect is just as much fantasy as Star Wars, just because you explain stuff doesn't make it work. Science Fiction is just another world for Action Adventure/Fantasy with futuristic crap.

^^This, the explanations for Mass Effect's technology may sound scientific, but it all boils down to Bioware taking a creative license to write purely speculative properties for a type of matter that has never even been detected yet.

#237
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Bamboozalist wrote...

bobobo878 wrote...

The same way as space ships.  As Engineer Adams explained, spaceships can cool down in space by emitting the energy in the form of infrared radiation.  If Bioware gave small-arms the same ability, it wouldn't be the most unrealistic science in the series.


Yes because it's totally a sound military decision to have soldiers carrying around weapons that emit a form of radiation that can blind you every time they fire. Emitting radiation in space where things are generally built to be protected from it and doing it on the battlefield planet side are two different things.

I didn't say that the emissions needed to be focused or directed into the gunman's eyes.

Modifié par bobobo878, 10 janvier 2011 - 10:38 .


#238
didymos1120

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Bamboozalist wrote...
Yes because it's totally a sound military decision to have soldiers carrying around weapons that emit a form of radiation that can blind you every time they fire. Emitting radiation in space where things are generally built to be protected from it and doing it on the battlefield planet side are two different things.


Not to mention spaceships have specialized cooling systems and a lot more surface area to work with.  Plus, it's noted that radiative cooling only gets them so far, and also that it's....kinda slow.  OK, screw it, I'm sick of paraphrasing. Codex time:

Space Combat: Combat Endurance

Heat limits the length and intensity of ship-to-ship combat. Starships generate enormous heat when they fire high-energy weapons, perform maneuvering burns, and run on-board combat electronics.

In combat, warships produce heat more quickly than they can disperse it. As heat builds within a vessel, the crewed spaces become increasingly uncomfortable. Before the heat reaches lethal levels, a ship must win or retreat by entering FTL. After an FTL run, the ships halts, shuts down non-essential systems, and activates the heat radiation gear.

Combat endurance varies by ship design and by the battle's location. Battles in the deep cold of interstellar space can go on for some time. Engagements close to a star are brief. Since habitable worlds are usually close to a star, battles over them are usually more frantic.


and:

Starships: Heat Management

Dispersal of heat generated by onboard systems is a critical issue for a ship. If it cannot deal with heat, the crew may be cooked within the hull.

Radiation is the only way to shed heat in a vacuum. Civilian vessels utilize large, fragile radiator panels that are impossible to armor. Warships use Diffuse Radiator Arrays (DRA), ceramic strips along the exterior of the armored hull. These make the ship appear striped to thermographic sensors. Since the arrangement of the strips depends on the internal configuration of the ship, the patterns for each vessel are unique and striking. On older ships, the DRA strips could become red- or white-hot. Dubbed "tiger stripes" or "war paint" by humans, the glowing DRA had a psychological impact on pirates and irregular forces.

Strip radiators are not as efficient as panels, but if damaged by enemy fire, the ship only loses a small portion of its total radiation capacity. In most cases, a vessel's DRA alone allows it to cruise with no difficulties. Operations deep within solar systems can cause problems.

A ship engaged in combat can produce titanic amounts of heat from maneuvering burns and weapons fire. When fighting in a high heat environment, warships employ high-efficiency "droplet" heat sinks.

In a droplet system, tanks of liquid sodium or lithium absorb heat within the ship. The liquid is vented from spray nozzles near the bow as a thin sheet of millions of micrometer-scale droplets. The droplets are caught at the stern and recycled into the system. A droplet system can sink 10-100 times as much heat as DRA strips.

Droplet sheets resemble a surface ship's wake through water. The wake peels out in sharp turns, spreading a fan of droplets as the ship changes vectors and leaves the coolant behind.


Plus there's the fact that Engineer Adams was talking about the Normandy, a vessel upon which bilions upon billions of credits were spent specifically to cope with heat and other emissions, and which sported a heat sink that was massive for a ship of its size.  And we should think this applies to highly compact personal weaponry why exactly?

Modifié par didymos1120, 10 janvier 2011 - 10:52 .


#239
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didymos1120 wrote...

Bamboozalist wrote...
Yes because it's totally a sound military decision to have soldiers carrying around weapons that emit a form of radiation that can blind you every time they fire. Emitting radiation in space where things are generally built to be protected from it and doing it on the battlefield planet side are two different things.


Not to mention spaceships have specialized cooling systems and a lot more surface area to work with.  Plus, it's noted that radiative cooling only gets them so far, and also that it's....kinda slow.  OK, screw it, I'm sick of paraphrasing. Codex time:

Space Combat: Combat Endurance

Heat limits the length and intensity of ship-to-ship combat. Starships generate enormous heat when they fire high-energy weapons, perform maneuvering burns, and run on-board combat electronics.

In combat, warships produce heat more quickly than they can disperse it. As heat builds within a vessel, the crewed spaces become increasingly uncomfortable. Before the heat reaches lethal levels, a ship must win or retreat by entering FTL. After an FTL run, the ships halts, shuts down non-essential systems, and activates the heat radiation gear.

Combat endurance varies by ship design and by the battle's location. Battles in the deep cold of interstellar space can go on for some time. Engagements close to a star are brief. Since habitable worlds are usually close to a star, battles over them are usually more frantic.


and:

Starships: Heat Management

Dispersal of heat generated by onboard systems is a critical issue for a ship. If it cannot deal with heat, the crew may be cooked within the hull.

Radiation is the only way to shed heat in a vacuum. Civilian vessels utilize large, fragile radiator panels that are impossible to armor. Warships use Diffuse Radiator Arrays (DRA), ceramic strips along the exterior of the armored hull. These make the ship appear striped to thermographic sensors. Since the arrangement of the strips depends on the internal configuration of the ship, the patterns for each vessel are unique and striking. On older ships, the DRA strips could become red- or white-hot. Dubbed "tiger stripes" or "war paint" by humans, the glowing DRA had a psychological impact on pirates and irregular forces.

Strip radiators are not as efficient as panels, but if damaged by enemy fire, the ship only loses a small portion of its total radiation capacity. In most cases, a vessel's DRA alone allows it to cruise with no difficulties. Operations deep within solar systems can cause problems.

A ship engaged in combat can produce titanic amounts of heat from maneuvering burns and weapons fire. When fighting in a high heat environment, warships employ high-efficiency "droplet" heat sinks.

In a droplet system, tanks of liquid sodium or lithium absorb heat within the ship. The liquid is vented from spray nozzles near the bow as a thin sheet of millions of micrometer-scale droplets. The droplets are caught at the stern and recycled into the system. A droplet system can sink 10-100 times as much heat as DRA strips.

Droplet sheets resemble a surface ship's wake through water. The wake peels out in sharp turns, spreading a fan of droplets as the ship changes vectors and leaves the coolant behind.


Plus there's the fact that Engineer Adams was talking about the Normandy, a vessel upon which bilions upon billions of credits were spent specifically to cope with heat and other emissions, and which sported a heat sink that was massive for a ship of its size.  And we should think this applies to highly compact personal weaponry why exactly?



All right, first of all, when Engineer Adams was talking about the Normandy's fancy heat sink, he was referring to it's stealth system.  Normal ships just emmit heat as they go instead of storing it.  I never said that small-arms need stealth systems.

Second of all, saying that a space ship can cool down faster than a gun because it has more surface area doesn't make any sense.  As the size of a three dimensional object increases, it's ratio of surface area to volume goes down.  Assuming that the amount of heat per unit of volume produced by a space ship is at least as much as that of a gun, the gun will cool more easily than a space ship for the same reason that a mug of coffee will cool faster than a jakuzzi.  I am assuming that a space ship does produce at least this much heat when traveling at FTL speeds.

Modifié par bobobo878, 10 janvier 2011 - 11:05 .


#240
Bamboozalist

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bobobo878 wrote...

Second of all, saying that a space ship can cool down faster than a gun because it has more surface area doesn't make any sense.  As the size of a three dimensional object increases, it's ratio of surface area to volume goes down.  Assuming that the amount of heat per unit of volume produced by a space ship is at least as much as that of a gun, the gun will cool more easily than a space ship for the same reason that a mug of coffee will cool faster than a jakuzzi.  I am assuming that a space ship does produce at least this much heat when traveling at FTL speeds.


Your hot tub/coffee example is wrong because there is no convection in space. Cooling via convection and cooling via radiation are two different things. A larger object can radiate away more heat much faster than a smaller object.

#241
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punt172o wrote...

UPDATE: Jan 10,2011

After reading everyones responses I've come to the conclusion that thermal clips are not operating the way I thought they would be.

I thought the new weapon firing system in Mass Effect 2 was exactly like Mass Effect 1 except you have the option to use a thermal clip if your weapon overheats.  And if you don't want to use a thermal clip you just wait for it to cool down like in ME1.

But the way they balanced things out, it's actually more inefficient than ME1.  The execution in game goes against the logic of the codex.

It also doesn't make sense that thermal clips are available around every step and every corner you go through across the entire universe as someone pointed out.  I hate to admit this but Bioware dropped the ball on this one. 

This thermal clip system is in fact a RETCON, I'm sad to say.

How did you think they worked then?

How is it more inefficient and how does it go against the ME2 Codex?

The ME2 Codex does mention that battlefields are littered with thermal clips.

I don't have an opinion on the retcon stuff, I just feel too much was left unsaid in the change between ME and ME2, for me to believe it is a retcon.

Modifié par Praetor Shepard, 10 janvier 2011 - 11:56 .


#242
Element_Zero

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Humm I had thought this topic had been discussed to death. . yet here again it keeps popping up in the oddest of ways.

I guess I find it to be a interesting oddity concerning the thermal clip system. I often times wondered if it vented heat though sublimation - a solid turning to a gaseous state. Maybe it's a compound that is a two part system. . . In other words encased within a metal jacket two chemical solid compounds that when superheated begin to combine in a endothermic reaction, that sublimates, which by both actions enhance bleeding off the heat generated.

I also find the description of the firearms a bit troubling as well and thought at some point the recoil of these guns could be mitigated though the magnetic field (collapse) similar to the way modern artillery dose it. With some pieces of artillery hydraulic - air cylinders are used to bleed away the shock of firing the gun by allowing the barrel to slid back and thus lengthening out - countering the stout recoil effect. Course given the rapid fire of some of the guns this would be impracticable since the mass of the barrel in motion might cause the firearm to jump all over the place.

In addition since the fictional element zero could counter these forces as well though an carefully controlled counteraction gravity wave traveling forward. It would be a sort of 'gravity break' similar in action to a modern day muzzle break.

Interesting enough though within some of our current assault rifles a variation of this is used to buffer the recoil of the bolt carrier. . And in the case of the M107 .50 cal the barrel recoils into a heavy springs that also helps mitigate recoil by lengthening out the impulse. (and yes the muzzle break on the weapon is very much part of this system of recoil management.)

Anyway sorry to switch up the argument a wee bit. . . All I really wanted for the thermal clips is a better management system in game. . and if they are universal. . make them truly universal so I can swap them in between guns if I'm in desperate need of them.

Modifié par Element_Zero, 11 janvier 2011 - 12:11 .


#243
Felfenix

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Somehow I'm not surprised that none of you are successful game developers.

#244
Praetor Knight

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Element_Zero wrote...

Anyway sorry to switch up the argument a wee bit. . . All I really wanted for the thermal clips is a better management system in game. . and if they are universal. . make them truly universal so I can swap them in between guns if I'm in desperate need of them.


I'd like that in ME3.


Felfenix wrote...

Somehow I'm not surprised that none of you are successful game developers.

<_<

#245
DeathtoTali

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Felfenix wrote...

Somehow I'm not surprised that none of you are successful game developers.


I am. I wake up every day wondering where it all went wrong :?

#246
M8DMAN

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I just want a hybrid system.

#247
TheBRADLeyB

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 Yeah when I first read about Thermal Clips and the way it was explained to me I thought this...

Weapons could overheat and instead of waiting for a weapon to cool down you could eject a 'clip' replace it and have a new non heated clip placed it which would greatly reduce heat of the gun.

Meaning that you could overheat your weapon and, if you needed/wanted to, pop the thermal clip and keep on shooting, other wise you would simply wait for your weapon to cool down.


Instead it was just ammo like every other game which made no sense.

#248
JKoopman

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Wow. It's been a year since ME2 came out and there are still people arguing that the thermal clips make sense in any way, shape or form as implemented in the game? I thought we'd covered this like a hundred times? They were an obvious, weak and lazy retcon.

#249
Praetor Knight

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Meh, my head is spinning after all this. Thought I'd share since it's related... :whistle:


Image IPB

#250
JKoopman

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One thing that's always baffled me about this debate is how the people who apparently were incapable of laying off their trigger in ME1 to the point where their weapons were "always overheating" are somehow able to play through all of ME2 without ever running out of ammo. :/

Did they all just have High Explosive Rounds  and dual Scram Rails on every weapon with no regard for heat management or what?

Modifié par JKoopman, 11 janvier 2011 - 02:09 .