451 réponses à ce sujet

[sinosleep]

slimgrin wrote...

Other thread was closed....

May I remind those in this thread, that ME2 was consistently criticized for it's sub-par shooting mechanics by shooter fans. It falls short in a number of areas when compared to games like Rainbow 6, Far Cry, and yes Call of Duty. Call of duty must be good for it to be so popular. But then Big Macks are popular.

I'm just saying this: there is an epidemic of derivative clones on the market, in every genre, and no doubt gamers love this. That's why it exists. That's why every other game that comes out of Japan is near identical to the last, and every Western shooter is a damn rip off of the last one. Here's an idea....COME UP WITH SOMETHING NEW. But then that isn't guaranteed to sell, so devs continue to play it safe and gamers just lap it up.

You said this in another thread and when I asked for a link you failed to provied one. There were no less than TEN reviews of ME 2 on the front page of it's metacritic page that made specific mention of improved shooter aspects of the game or referred to it as an out and out shooter instead of an rpg in the opening blurb.

p.s. BigMacs are damned good. The amount of hate they get onlin is ABSURD.

Modifié par sinosleep, 11 janvier 2011 - 04:18 .

[didymos1120]

sinosleep wrote...

You don't even have to wait for frictionless materials or the late game. Me shooting for an absurd amount of time without having done a single story mission.

Well, you gotta admit:  you found a way to frustrate the intentions of the designers.  You're really not supposed to have that stuff so early in the plot outside of an NG+.

[padaE]

Mass Effect 2 gunplay is simple, but very, very solid, add to that a very diverse arsenal of weapons and you have a very good gunplay. However, when you add the biotic, tech and combat powers and see the gameplay as a whole, you come to see that ME2's gameplay is rather unique.

[The Smoking Man]

padaE wrote...

No, I'm not saying that opinions equals fact, but that most times when we compare to things, one is better than other, and when someone states that, you can't just say that it's not true because it's his opinion.

I wasn't arguing that opinions are inherently invalid, I was arguing that it's fallacious to pass off (vague) opinion as fact without any clarification or supporting evidence.

And about the reviews, this is good enough: http://features.meta...de-the-reviews/

There is no mention of the ammo system in there (keep in mind that's not the only shooter mechanic that changed from ME1->ME2), or how ME1's gameplay was terrible and almost nonexistent.

[Lumikki]

Can anyone say any good RPG what had good long range gun combat?
Can anyone say any good Shooter what had good long range gun combat?

Does Mass Effect serie have long range gun combat or melee close combat?
Why does shooters have mostly clips and RPG combat doesn't ?

Maybe it's because clips improves gun shooting feeling in combat?

Modifié par Lumikki, 11 janvier 2011 - 04:29 .

[The Smoking Man]

Lumikki wrote...

Maybe it's because clips improves gun shooting feeling in combat?

It's because that's how it works in modern warfare. Also, you forget about the Covenant weaponry in Halo, which used an overheat system not unlike the weapons in ME1.

[JKoopman]

padaE wrote...

Well. not much to do as I suppose if I show almost a hundred ME2's reviews all stating how ME2 gameplay is much better than it's predecessor you would just say it's a hundred of opnions, right?
.
I suppose you think that any trash movie can be considered better than a major classic, because at the end, isn't just opnions?

Jesus man...

Yes, that's exactly what it is. Reviews are just the opinion of the reviewer. Thus, 100 reviews are merely 100 opinions and people are free to disagree. Simply because someone is paid to publish their opinion does not make their opinion fact, especially when it's common for developers/publishers to pay for good reviews.

That combat in ME2 is better than in ME1 is not a fact, it's an opinion. And one that I at least don't share.

Modifié par JKoopman, 11 janvier 2011 - 04:34 .

[slimgrin]

sinosleep wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

Other thread was closed....

May I remind those in this thread, that ME2 was consistently criticized for it's sub-par shooting mechanics by shooter fans. It falls short in a number of areas when compared to games like Rainbow 6, Far Cry, and yes Call of Duty. Call of duty must be good for it to be so popular. But then Big Macks are popular.

I'm just saying this: there is an epidemic of derivative clones on the market, in every genre, and no doubt gamers love this. That's why it exists. That's why every other game that comes out of Japan is near identical to the last, and every Western shooter is a damn rip off of the last one. Here's an idea....COME UP WITH SOMETHING NEW. But then that isn't guaranteed to sell, so devs continue to play it safe and gamers just lap it up.

You said this in another thread and when I asked for a link you failed to provied one. There were no less than TEN reviews of ME 2 on the front page of it's metacritic page that made specific mention of improved shooter aspects of the game or referred to it as an out and out shooter instead of an rpg in the opening blurb.

p.s. BigMacs are damned good. The amount of hate they get onlin is ABSURD.

Try googling it. Do you have friends who are die-hard fans of shooters? Do they think the AI, the level design, etc, match up with games like Rainbow six and Far Cry? I sure didn't.

[Bluko]

This is a pretty big deal to me, so I'm going to weigh in here.

*Skip to last paragraph if you want to get to the gist of what I'd like to see implemented*

WhatI really liked about ME1's combat setup was for the first time in a shooter I did not have to scavenge for ammo. I didn't have to go walk over dead enemies to get more ammo for my gun. Scavenging a new weapon
is one thing. But always hunting for ammo gets tedious and really doesn't enhance the game. I had a lot of respect for ME1 trying to something different from most shooters.

I was kind of abashed by the fact that ME2 went back on that. The thing is in the process of  adding "ammo" to the game in ME2 they also kind of screwed with a lot of the lore behind the game. In Mass Effect each gun has a block of material inside. The gun takes a very small amount of mass from this block and propels it at a very high speed (supersonic) to compensate for the small mass of the projectile. Which honestly makes
sense for how future weapons would work, since ammo would pretty much no longer be a problem. Now obviously you can't just fire forever in a game, as there needs to be a constraint. So weapons generate heat (whichthey probably would a lot) which means you must fire in moderation or let the weapon cool off. Worked for me, and when my weapon overheated, guess what I switched to a different weapon!

See this whole thing about the ammo system forcing you to use different weapons is garbage. I almost never have to do this.More often what happens is just stick with the assault rifles and SMGs Actually all the ammo system does is keep from using guns like the pistols, shotguns, and sniper rifles (especially snipers) because they honestly barely have enough ammo for a single engagement. Also playing as a Vanguard sucks big time in ME2 cause you are so limited by a lack of ammo. See in ME1 I never had an issue using a shotgun or using a pistol when I need to. Really the ammo system wasn't put in place to make them game better, it was put in to
appease all the kiddies that are use to playing Gears of War, etc. where pretty much all you do is hide behind convient blocks of cover and fire your weapon til you need to reload. I'm surprised they didn't just copy
the "reload bonus", but then I would have probably seriously face-palmed.

I don't really have a problem with the inclusion of  heatsinks in weapons in terms of lore. I mean to a certain degree it  makes sense. I mean machine guns of the past were often water cooled or needed to have barrels swapped. But it is utterly moronic to go from weapons that didn't run out of ammo, to having weapons with a limited ammunition. Why aren't heatsinks re-usuable? Why not just have alternating barrels if overheating is an issue? I'm fine with having limited number of shots before I have to reload/cooldown my weapon. But I
should never run out of ammo for a gun in the Mass Effect universe in a combat situation. Scavenging for heatsinks sucks. And I loathe using sniper rifles since you can't really fire more then 10 shots before
you're forced to scavenge heatsinks (excluding the Viper). My only other greivance is the fact that all the guns fire tracer rounds now for some reason and very slow ones at that. It's a minor but I very much preferred the trails left behind the guns in ME1 in terms of aesthetics. Also makes a little more sense considering the speeds rounds travel at in Mass Effect.

What I suggest and believe would greatly improve the game is to have a hybrid of both methods. Why not make it so heatsinks are resuable? I mean why not? Maybe add a penatly where the more you use a gun and its heatsinks the less it can sustain fire due to sustained heat build-up. Essentially if you over-use a gun firing it
non-stop all the time it becomes less effective and can fire less and less shots since the heatsinks don't get time to fully dissipate heat they've built up. This encourages people to use another weapon that has "cooled off" while not making their favorite weapon unusable. Seems more innovative and better balanced to me.

Modifié par Bluko, 11 janvier 2011 - 04:54 .

[The Spamming Troll]

didymos1120 wrote...

sinosleep wrote...

You don't even have to wait for frictionless materials or the late game. Me shooting for an absurd amount of time without having done a single story mission.

Well, you gotta admit:  you found a way to frustrate the intentions of the designers.  You're really not supposed to have that stuff so early in the plot outside of an NG+.

....plus, who cares if you can fire forever, or not????? it doesnt change the way you play the game. as a matter of fact i think its fairere to say the opposite of your configuration would be much more reason to complain. id rather take rail extensions and sledgehammer at that point in the game. ive never understood this complaint about ME1. your weapon that fired forever was a pea shooter compared to mine, so it didnt help that you could fire forever, unless you played in a mile long hallway and enemies didnt have waist high pilars to hide bahind.

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 11 janvier 2011 - 05:47 .

[didymos1120]

The Spamming Troll wrote...


....plus, who cares if you can fire forever, or not?????

The point of bringing it up was that people were going "I hate clips. They're dirty lore violators...but I totally love being able to eternally fire my far more lore-violating uber-modded ME1 gun that defies the very laws of thermodynamics themselves!"

[Encarmine]

the only thing i dont get with the whole thermal clip business, is why i can only carry a set amount of rounds for different weapon types.



shouldnt clips work for all my weapons@? why am i only alloud to fire 15 rounds from my shotgun, but then still have excess rounds left for my SMG? arnt the clips universal?

[adam_grif]

Do they think the AI, the level design, etc, match up with games like Rainbow six and Far Cry? I sure didn't.

Rainbow Six is not exactly notable for its great A.I., most modern shooters can't match up to Far Cry anyway.



F.E.A.R. is where it's at baby!

[didymos1120]

Encarmine wrote...

the only thing i dont get with the whole thermal clip business, is why i can only carry a set amount of rounds for different weapon types.

shouldnt clips work for all my weapons@? why am i only alloud to fire 15 rounds from my shotgun, but then still have excess rounds left for my SMG? arnt the clips universal?

It's simple: they didn't implement that.  Why? Probably because it was much easier that way. 

[Devos]

As much as I think this thread is going (has gone) bad places I can't quite resist posting.

First of all from a lore point of view thermal clips make no sense. This argument has been run over and over so I don't really care to argue that point any further. It's purely a game design issue with lore a distant concern twisted to match up. It's no difference to changes to powers.

Second ME1 was a bad shooter but it's short comings as such ran much deeper than the cooling mechanics. It had no hit location based damage, the level designs were bad, character durability made cover more or less irrelevant most of the time, the dominance of singularity to name just a few of its problems. I love Mass Effect but wearing the shooter fan hat I don't love it as a shooter. Mass Effect 2 is a much better shooter (though in the role of shooter fan it still has flaws) but that alone isn't enough to say as a mechanic it must be better since it has so many other changes which are pretty clearly improvements.

ME1's biotics were broken but biotics aren't in ME2 (moving on). Utilising ME1's cooldown, trade offs of heat generation to damage or even purposely overheating were all regularly discussed in ME1 character build topics. It was a system that could be thoroughly broken. Not only could you fire indefinitely without over heat it was actually possible to generate zero heat per shot (negating sabotage). It's a mechanic that added some depth and choices, yes it was broken but was it really broken beyond repair?

ME2 has a pretty bad ammo system. I wrote about it in the thread that was locked. When you look at the best pure shooters they use ammo to make you either be conservative with a better weapon or use a weapon for which ammo is more abundant. Some shooters give you so much ammo that it's not an issue, you can't just hold down the trigger but you are very unlikely to run out. Bad Company 2 for example.

ME2 doesn't give a strategic choice and the ammo restriction feels pretty tight. The main result is you run around searching for ammo between battles or get brought down by bad luck on drops. The best shooters have ammo but they use the mechanic in a way ME2 doesn't or make the capacity a non-issue.

If you want an example of a well known bad ammo system look at Transformers: War for Cybertron. You have low ammo capacities and ammo is refilled from universal ammo boxes rather than enemies dropping ammo types which you have to search for between/during fights. It's handling of ammo was universally panned and one of the most common complaints about the game (personally I enjoyed WfC well enough despite any lingering nostalgia for the franchise I held being well and truly crushed over the last few years)

ME2's ammo system while certainly not as bad as WfC but it has more in common with it than a lot of good shooters. The problem ME has with an ammo system is that gun acquisition doesn't function in the same way as most shooters. You aren't picking them up off the ground like you would in CoD, Halo, Gears, Uncharted. You aren't making a tactical choice. About all the ammo mechanic can do is demand you shoot better or run out of ammo and running out of ammo is pretty annoying sanction. Because you aren't making any choices collecting ammo is just busy work. To deal with these issue Bioware either have to make the ammo system so irrelevant that they stop being a problem or do something very clever.

What I've always had to say is that I don't have a problem with an ammo system in ME in principle I just don't like how it's handled in ME2. That said my gut feeling is that the "something very clever" answer is more likely to come from fixing the cool down mechanic than an ammo system.

[Praetor Knight]

Encarmine wrote...

the only thing i dont get with the whole thermal clip business, is why i can only carry a set amount of rounds for different weapon types.

shouldnt clips work for all my weapons@? why am i only alloud to fire 15 rounds from my shotgun, but then still have excess rounds left for my SMG? arnt the clips universal?

I want universal thermal clips shared for all weapons that need them for ME3.

I figure that something happened in development, and Bioware used "shooter / ammo" gameplay mechanics last minute with Thermal Clips. Apparently there was supposed to be a hybrid system, based on disabled/deactivated code found in the game files.

It seems similar to how biotic powers can be chain cast in-game (only wait is for the global cooldown) when it is supposed to be so physically tasking in other media to use biotics.

Personally I rather just RP / pretend that the thermal clips are universal in ME2, and that I just have to rotate my weapons.


Edit: I was wrong.

Modifié par Praetor Shepard, 11 janvier 2011 - 05:22 .

[adam_grif]

I never have to rotate my weapons because my main char is a Soldier and the Revenant kills everything dead and never runs out of ammo.

[Praetor Knight]

adam_grif wrote...

I never have to rotate my weapons because my main char is a Soldier and the Revenant kills everything dead and never runs out of ammo.

Kudos sir.

I've played most as the Soldier and I like using my shotty and sniper rifle a lot. Then with the Phalanx and Mattock, you then have to change tactics and really know where to get more Thermals to push forward in really only a few areas.
I don't tend to play aggressive either, but I've gotten better.

[Direwolf0294]

Thermal clips didn't work how I thought they would from the discription. Yes thermal clips are a recon. They are a lot better then ME1s unlimited ammo system though. The combat feels a lot more smooth then it ever did in ME1 and I actually find my self using my other weapons unlike ME1 were I just used my assault rifle. If ME3 goes back to ME1s system I will be very disappointed.

[Jorina Leto]

padaE wrote...

It made the gameplay much, much better

No, ME1 has the better gameplay. Fact!

padaE wrote....
And about the reviews, this is good enough: http://features.meta...de-the-reviews/

So called professional reviews are irrelevant. They get ads for good reviews.

Modifié par Jorina Leto, 11 janvier 2011 - 07:20 .

[didymos1120]

Jorina Leto wrote...

padaE wrote...

It made the gameplay much, much better

No, ME1 has the better gameplay. Fact!

Opinion!  Both of you!

[skan5]

Praetor Shepard wrote...
I figure that something happened in development, and Bioware used "shooter / ammo" gameplay mechanics last minute with Thermal Clips. Apparently there was supposed to be a hybrid system, based on disabled/deactivated code found in the game files.

You actually CAN enable it, or at least a regenerating ammo system. I've never found a way to balance it though; either AR regenerates way too fast or the other weapons too slow.

Because of this I'm convinced they faced some sort of limitations or time constraints that caused them to drop the system and just leave it as your standard ammo system at the last second (leaving it very poorly executed). Reminds me of the mentions of destructible/interactive environments and the original squadmate control system shown in ME1's alpha clips.

Anyways, I'm positive BioWare is going to do something regarding this. This topic has been ongoing since release, if not before. The repeatedly mentioned hybrid system would definitely be the best of both worlds. If they keep ME2's as is, then I'm sure this will continue into the release of ME3 as well

[Praetor Knight]

skan5 wrote...

Praetor Shepard wrote...
I figure that something happened in development, and Bioware used "shooter / ammo" gameplay mechanics last minute with Thermal Clips. Apparently there was supposed to be a hybrid system, based on disabled/deactivated code found in the game files.

You actually CAN enable it, or at least a regenerating ammo system. I've never found a way to balance it though; either AR regenerates way too fast or the other weapons too slow.

Just wanted to add that fLoki mentioned it here with a link to the original thread. I had no idea 'til today that that was in the game files. I'm on 360 so it would be a pain for me to go through the steps right now to edit that, if its possible at all for the console.

[skan5]

Praetor Shepard wrote...
Just wanted to add that fLoki mentioned it here with a link to the original thread. I had no idea 'til today that that was in the game files. I'm on 360 so it would be a pain for me to go through the steps right now to edit that, if its possible at all for the console.

Whoops, I missed that post.  But yeah, there you have it!

[sinosleep]

skan5 wrote...

You actually CAN enable it, or at least a regenerating ammo system. I've never found a way to balance it though; either AR regenerates way too fast or the other weapons too slow.

Because of this I'm convinced they faced some sort of limitations or time constraints that caused them to drop the system and just leave it as your standard ammo system at the last second (leaving it very poorly executed). Reminds me of the mentions of destructible/interactive environments and the original squadmate control system shown in ME1's alpha clips.

Anyways, I'm positive BioWare is going to do something regarding this. This topic has been ongoing since release, if not before. The repeatedly mentioned hybrid system would definitely be the best of both worlds. If they keep ME2's as is, then I'm sure this will continue into the release of ME3 as well

From what I understand it was tested and removed due to feedback, not time constraints.