451 réponses à ce sujet

[Da_Lion_Man]

So TC admitted he was wrong? You have my respect sir, it takes a man to admit he was wrong on the internet.

[Direwolf0294]

I had a thought . Thermal clips actually do sort of work in game how the codex says they do. A lot of people seem to see it as the clips having bullets in them and that's what we're firing. In actual fact the guns are still firing with unlimited ammo. It's just that instead of the heat from firing going into the gun like in ME1 and making people wait for it to cool down to fire again the heat is actually going into the thermal clip which can then be ejected and replaced. This means that they don't have to wait for the gun to cooldown. Of course this would also mean that the guns should be able to fire without thermal clips and the heat just goes into the gun and forces us to have to wait for it to cooldown like in ME1 unless of course the new guns are being built without the the ability for the heat to go into the gun for some reason.

[Lumikki]

Jorina Leto wrote...

padaE wrote...

It made the gameplay much, much better

No, ME1 has the better gameplay. Fact!

How to hell was ME1 weapon combat better than in ME2?

Also in general comment here to @All.

What are you doing, you use LORE as excuse to create bad combat gameplay?

I allways thinked that we need good gameplay first, then invent lore what fits for it. Not opposite, create bad lore and then try to make bad combat system because of it. Mass Effect weapon combat lore is full of problems. No, I don't mean gameplay here, I mean the lore is badly done.

Now Mass Effect lore has this idiotic unlimited ammo system. I have allready told why it's magical. How ever, when you have it, you have to also think what other technology related stuff will get changed. Example many of visual weapon looks and even categories of weapons only exist because ammo capacity limits in our reality. How ever, when it's changed, like they did in Mass Effect lore, why aren't weapons it self changed with them? Why do we have same weapons what we have now in our reality, where we have bullet size. Example what's the difference between UZI and heavy pistol in our reality? Now change the ammo system why we have two diffrent weapon, when we could just have one. Even in todays rifle we can change fire rates, single shots, burst shots to full auto fire rate.

If you people have hard time to understand what I meaned, then think what would change in our own reality if someone would invent technology to neuralize gravity. My point is new technology doesn't change just one thing, it affects everyting related the technology.

My point is that stop using **** up lore as excuse, because bad lore doesn't create good combat system.

Modifié par Lumikki, 11 janvier 2011 - 01:19 .

[DrIggy]

One of many mistakes they made related to the ME2 ammo system is that they used this GUI presentation:



Instead of something like this (mockup made by me in about 15 minutes):

[TheRealIncarnal]

It's not about the lore, it's about practicality.

1. You're the only person in the galaxy who uses the Thermal Clips! Take a look around the next time you play ME2. You can let an enemy shoot for half an hour, and they run out of ammunition. Neither does your squad! Sure they reload, but it's purely cosmetic as they never actually run out. You're the only moron who brought a gun with limited ammunition to a fight with unlimited ammunition.

2. It's not heat, it's ammunition. Yes, the game says that it functions like heat, but it never dissipates and you cannot fire the weapon in any way without the "thermal clips". Not only is a bad system, but it doesn't even work the way they say it does.

3. It's detrimental to gameplay. You're surrounded by people with unlimited ammunition, but you're managing ammunition. So many of your enemies don't even drop ammunition! However, if you get a gun that is very efficient with ammunition such as the machinegun and it removes pretty much any worries of ammunition and lets your lay down a pretty much constant stream of fire without pausing. At least in Mass Effect you had to make it to the end of the game until you could make an Assault Rifle that fired endlessly. You can do it fairly early in Mass Effect 2, and it's game breaking.

Then let's bring in the lore, because Mass Effect without Lore is frankly not an impressive game. The clips don't make sense with the lore, that much has pretty much been established.

Also, the above mockup is pretty much perfect, and a great representation of how the system should have worked, especially if you had the choice to change the clip or let your weapon cool down. 

Modifié par TheRealIncarnal, 11 janvier 2011 - 01:27 .

[bjdbwea]

Good point, but then again, in the new Fallout games, the enemies also have unlimited ammo. And those games are, in contrast to ME 2, real RPGs with a proper combination of RPG elements and player-skill based shooting. In the original Fallout games, the enemies would run out of ammo too, and then switch to melee combat or flee, but that would probably not work very well in a real-time 3D game, because the enemies with their bad AI would run out of ammo quickly while the players could just wait and save their ammo until the enemies become sitting ducks.

In any case, if only it was necessary in ME 2 to manage ammo. Unfortunately, while it theoretically is, it's way too easy. There's too much ammo conveniently lying around, so that running out of ammo is very rarely any issue. But of course, it would be of no use either. Because the gameplay is so simple and linear, because everything is fixated on Shepard just mowing down the enemies. There aren't any other ways of dealing with, avoiding or fleeing from enemies anyway. So of course it's only consequent to virtually give the player unlimited ammo too.

Again, the new Fallout games show how it should be done. If you run out of ammo (and yes, that can happen if you have mods installed that make the gameplay actually challenging), there are still other tactics to deal with the enemies or to try and get away. The same is true for Alpha Protocol. Yes, the mechanics don't always work very well. But at least Obsidian tried, whereas BioWare just took the easiest and quickest route during development of almost every aspect in ME 2. Of course it's easier to present a "polished" game this way, but that doesn't make it the better, more challenging or more interesting game.

Modifié par bjdbwea, 11 janvier 2011 - 02:38 .

[SalsaDMA]

Since this whole subject is about assumptions, let's add some:

TheRealIncarnal wrote...

It's not about the lore, it's about practicality.

1. You're the only person in the galaxy who uses the Thermal Clips! Take a look around the next time you play ME2. You can let an enemy shoot for half an hour, and they run out of ammunition. Neither does your squad! Sure they reload, but it's purely cosmetic as they never actually run out. You're the only moron who brought a gun with limited ammunition to a fight with unlimited ammunition.

Most games with limited ammo gives the cpu opponents unlimited ammo. This is purely because of gameplay mechanics, as the player could otherwise just bunker down and wait out untill the enemy (often poor) AI had emptied their ammo and would then be sitting ducks.

Making a claim based on game mechanics is akin to claiming that Shepard can't crouch at all after his resurection unless he got something to lean on. Again, a gameplay limitation that shouldn't affect your understanding of the 'world' behind the game.

Understand that gameplay limitations aren't always akin to an acurate representation of the actual lore or world behind it.

Another case in point: Weapons NEVER had unlimited ammo in the ME world or ME lore. ME1 just didn't bother fiddling with clips of 4000+ shots, and simplified the gameplay by omitting ammo from the gamemechanics. Doesn't mean that weapons got unlimited ammo in the ME world, though.

2. It's not heat, it's ammunition. Yes, the game says that it functions like heat, but it never dissipates and you cannot fire the weapon in any way without the "thermal clips". Not only is a bad system, but it doesn't even work the way they say it does.

You don't know the inner workings of heatclips, or what they consists of. In short, you have no idea wether they consist of materials that are apt at drawing heat to themselves and contain it (to prevent it from radiating into the attcahed weapon). Imagine a thermal clip that radiated heat while inside the weapon. Alot of good it would do then, as it would still wreck your weapon if you didn't eject after every single shot. Thermal clips are able reside in the weapon for long periods before we eject them, therefore we must deduce that they are actually containing the heat, and not just drawing it.

For an easy example you can do today: observe a fire with lots of stuff that makes ashes. When everything is covered in ashes, you can get the impression that things have cooled after a while. Stirring in the ashes, however, reveals redhot embers inside and heat starts emanating again now that the ashes no longer limits the heat.

3. It's detrimental to gameplay. You're surrounded by people with unlimited ammunition, but you're managing ammunition. So many of your enemies don't even drop ammunition! However, if you get a gun that is very efficient with ammunition such as the machinegun and it removes pretty much any worries of ammunition and lets your lay down a pretty much constant stream of fire without pausing. At least in Mass Effect you had to make it to the end of the game until you could make an Assault Rifle that fired endlessly. You can do it fairly early in Mass Effect 2, and it's game breaking.

You already said this once, and it's not detrimental, if anything it prevents the player from breaking the AI by just waiting till the cpu is out of ammo. And drops of ammo being randomized to a degree from opponents is also a gameplay mechanic. Just like you don't get credit chip drops from every enemy, corpses despawn, you can't pick up enemies weapons, explosions don't destroy the terrain and so on and so on.

Then let's bring in the lore, because Mass Effect without Lore is frankly not an impressive game. The clips don't make sense with the lore, that much has pretty much been established.

They make sense. You just choose an arbitrarily opinion of "I prefer the other way, thus the 'new' way sucks". The explenations given are perfectly rational and resides in logical deductions and is well within acceptable science.

If anything, people claiming unlimited ammo 'makes sense' are the ones being on the funy side. Especially when it has been established that unlimited ammo in ME1 was only a gameplay simplification compared to the lore.

Also, the above mockup is pretty much perfect, and a great representation of how the system should have worked, especially if you had the choice to change the clip or let your weapon cool down. 

You can change thermal clip anytime you want.

There is nothing to cool down in your weapon in ME2 because the heat have been transfered to the thermal clips already and are contained therein. Thermal clips are the only heat-combative element of the weapons, and firing a weapon without a clip is prevented by the firing mechanism cause the alternative would be the user holding a burning hot piece of metal in his hands as soon as he hit the trigger; both having a high chance of injuring the user as well as rendering the weapon useless for further usage.

Personally I prefer not being able to fire a weapon if the only result is that it will destroy itself in a harmfull way.

Modifié par SalsaDMA, 11 janvier 2011 - 04:21 .

[Praetor Knight]

I've been mulling this over for a while, and I wondered. What if the reason that each weapon in ME2 has separate Thermal Clips is because they are stored on or inside of the individual guns?

I've made the assumption that Shep has the Spare Thermal Clips on his/her Armor, but it did not occur to me before that they could actually be on or inside the weapon.


Here is an example of what I mean about being stored on the gun.



Being stored inside the gun could function like revolver setup or a linear tube like a shotgun.



These two pictures are the increased Thermal Clip capacity for Shottys and SMG's


http://masseffect.wi...otguns#Upgrades
http://masseffect.wi...e_Guns#Upgrades

Modifié par Praetor Shepard, 11 janvier 2011 - 05:11 .

[JKoopman]

SalsaDMA wrote...

Another case in point: Weapons NEVER had unlimited ammo in the ME world or ME lore. ME1 just didn't bother fiddling with clips of 4000+ shots, and simplified the gameplay by omitting ammo from the gamemechanics. Doesn't mean that weapons got unlimited ammo in the ME world, though.

Functionally unlimited. Since "this whole thread is about assumptions", you can go ahead and just assume that's what people mean. The in-game assumption is that the ammo blocks are replaced between each mission.

SalsaDMA wrote...

You don't know the inner workings of heatclips, or what they consists of. In short, you have no idea wether they consist of materials that are apt at drawing heat to themselves and contain it (to prevent it from radiating into the attcahed weapon). Imagine a thermal clip that radiated heat while inside the weapon. Alot of good it would do then, as it would still wreck your weapon if you didn't eject after every single shot. Thermal clips are able reside in the weapon for long periods before we eject them, therefore we must deduce that they are actually containing the heat, and not just drawing it.

For an easy example you can do today: observe a fire with lots of stuff that makes ashes. When everything is covered in ashes, you can get the impression that things have cooled after a while. Stirring in the ashes, however, reveals redhot embers inside and heat starts emanating again now that the ashes no longer limits the heat.

Are you aware that your example of something that contains heat is actually something that radiates heat?

Nevermind that thermal clips obviously radiate heat, or else Zaeed wouldn't have been able to ignite that fuel spill with a spent clip during his loyalty mission (and they wouldn't glow and sizzle).

SalsaDMA wrote...

You already said this once, and it's not detrimental, if anything it prevents the player from breaking the AI by just waiting till the cpu is out of ammo. And drops of ammo being randomized to a degree from opponents is also a gameplay mechanic. Just like you don't get credit chip drops from every enemy, corpses despawn, you can't pick up enemies weapons, explosions don't destroy the terrain and so on and so on.

No, but it is a bit like adding insult to injury when my squadmates are blasting away without a care in the world and I'm having to scrounge the battlefield for fallen clips like a filthy Vorcha just so I can use my pistol again.

SalsaDMA wrote...

They make sense. You just choose an arbitrarily opinion of "I prefer the other way, thus the 'new' way sucks". The explenations given are perfectly rational and resides in logical deductions and is well within acceptable science.

If anything, people claiming unlimited ammo 'makes sense' are the ones being on the funy side. Especially when it has been established that unlimited ammo in ME1 was only a gameplay simplification compared to the lore.

No, they don't.

1) They don't function the way the game's own lore dictates they should function by allowing the weapons to fire faster and for more prolonged periods, as the weapons in ME1 were equal in terms of rate-of-fire and with mods could be made far superior in prolonged use. They are a technological downgrade that's being passed off as an upgrade.

2) They don't function the way the Law of Thermodynamics dictates they should function, with the thermal clips storing heat indefiniately and never dissipating it to the point where you can fire a single shot from your pistol, put it away and never use it again until the final boss battle and the heat generated from that single shot will still be present in the clip. They function instead as ammo pure and simple.

3) ME2's lore claims that thermal clip technology was learned from the Geth, yet the Geth in ME1 never used thermal clips and in fact the player himself had access to Geth weaponry in ME1 that functioned exactly the same as Council weaponry, making thermal clips a retcon.

4) Thermal clips are found in many places in ME2 where they don't belong, like on Aeia during Jacob's loyalty mission and in Zaeed's 5-year-old retired assault rifle 'Jessie'.

5) The only heat management system that does make sense is a hybrid system. Throwing out the passive cooling of weaponry from ME1 in favor of a system that provides no real benefit and requires the use of a highly limited resource without which the weapons are rendered permanently useless makes no logical, tactical or logistical sense.

SalsaDMA wrote...

You can change thermal clip anytime you want.

There is nothing to cool down in your weapon in ME2 because the heat have been transfered to the thermal clips already and are contained therein. Thermal clips are the only heat-combative element of the weapons, and firing a weapon without a clip is prevented by the firing mechanism cause the alternative would be the user holding a burning hot piece of metal in his hands as soon as he hit the trigger; both having a high chance of injuring the user as well as rendering the weapon useless for further usage.

Personally I prefer not being able to fire a weapon if the only result is that it will destroy itself in a harmfull way.

Funny, weapons seemed to work just fine in ME1 before thermal clips were even invented. I can't recall a single instance where my weapons destroyed themselves...

Yeah, you can make the argument that internal heatsinks were removed from all weaponry in the universe in favor of the new thermal clip system and thus heat has nowhere to go but into the thermal clips, but that again just proves what a bone-headed and illogical idea thermal clips were in the first place.

Modifié par JKoopman, 11 janvier 2011 - 05:21 .

[Christina Norman]

 Sinosleep mentioned there were questions on the forum about the prototype head dissipation system discovered in the ME2 coalasced.ini file. I'm home sick so this is a great time to write up a little gameplay info for you guys.

I believe strongly in experimentation over debate in determining design. I encourage my design team to feel free to try out different approaches in gameplay, we keep what works, and we disable what doesn't work.

The way we generally try a new feature is we implement it and we gate it via an INI setting. The heat dissipation system in ME2 (which I implemented) is one such system. I implemented, put in an INI setting to control access to it, and tried it out.

Like many systems we experiment with, that system did not make it into the final game. The heat sink system we shipped with was one of the most extensively tested systems, and it produced the best combat gameplay.  However, I chose to leave in the prototype heat dissipation system because I generally believe in leaving in prototype systems if they are not harmful. As a result, players are free to experiment with this system which otherwise wouldn't be available to anyone.

I'm not going to get into an IP debate, but I can say that all gameplay changes are reviewed for IP consistency which is why there is an IP explanation for the change in how weapons operate from ME1 to ME2. Ultimately this decision was driven by our improved combat gameplay design for ME2, but was fully backed up by our continually developing IP. 

[sinosleep]

Thanks for posting Christina, hope you feel better soon.

[Praetor Knight]

Christina Norman wrote...

 *snip*

Awesome!

Under the weather? I hope you feel better ASAP, seriously.

[Bamboozalist]

JKoopman wrote...
Wall of text

Thermal clips are able to ignite fuel on contact which means they're at least ~250 degrees celcius, do you know how long that would take to cool? Longer than any fire fight in ME2. Weapons in ME1 cool about a hundred times faster than they should, no military would ever use the ME1 system unless they sent their troops into combat with massive cooling systems specifically designed to make those weapons cool as fast as they did in ME1. Themal clips are a technological upgrade in every way possible, especially considering that if a weapon ever actually overheated like it did in ME1 it would have permanent damage to it.

[JKoopman]

Christina Norman wrote...

 Sinosleep mentioned there were questions on the forum about the prototype head dissipation system discovered in the ME2 coalasced.ini file. I'm home sick so this is a great time to write up a little gameplay info for you guys.

I believe strongly in experimentation over debate in determining design. I encourage my design team to feel free to try out different approaches in gameplay, we keep what works, and we disable what doesn't work.

The way we generally try a new feature is we implement it and we gate it via an INI setting. The heat dissipation system in ME2 (which I implemented) is one such system. I implemented, put in an INI setting to control access to it, and tried it out.

Like many systems we experiment with, that system did not make it into the final game. The heat sink system we shipped with was one of the most extensively tested systems, and it produced the best combat gameplay.  However, I chose to leave in the prototype heat dissipation system because I generally believe in leaving in prototype systems if they are not harmful. As a result, players are free to experiment with this system which otherwise wouldn't be available to anyone.

I'm not going to get into an IP debate, but I can say that all gameplay changes are reviewed for IP consistency which is why there is an IP explanation for the change in how weapons operate from ME1 to ME2. Ultimately this decision was driven by our improved combat gameplay design for ME2, but was fully backed up by our continually developing IP.

Thanks for posting. It's always nice to hear from people on the inside.

I'd be happy just to hear that the team is still open to changes to the combat system and haven't simply accepted that the current system is perfect as is. Perhaps the majority of players did approve of the changes made between ME1 and ME2, but there were still a fair number that didn't and it would be a shame if some sort of compromise couldn't be reached (like the aforementioned hybrid system, if it could be balanced properly).

Also, hope you feel better. I'm at the tail end of a bad cold myself, so I can sympathize.

Modifié par JKoopman, 11 janvier 2011 - 05:34 .

[JKoopman]

Bamboozalist wrote...

JKoopman wrote...
Wall of text

Thermal clips are able to ignite fuel on contact which means they're at least ~250 degrees celcius, do you know how long that would take to cool? Longer than any fire fight in ME2. Weapons in ME1 cool about a hundred times faster than they should, no military would ever use the ME1 system unless they sent their troops into combat with massive cooling systems specifically designed to make those weapons cool as fast as they did in ME1. Themal clips are a technological upgrade in every way possible, especially considering that if a weapon ever actually overheated like it did in ME1 it would have permanent damage to it.

You have no idea what kind of futuristic alloys and cooling systems are being used in the Mass Effect universe. For all you know, their heatsinks are 100X more efficient than what we have today.

And in any case, as they did work in ME1, it can be inferred that they should work in ME2.

Modifié par JKoopman, 11 janvier 2011 - 05:37 .

[Fiery Phoenix]

Thanks for posting, Christina. I hope you feel better soon.

[sinosleep]

JKoopman wrote...

You have no idea what kind of futuristic alloys and cooling systems are being used in the Mass Effect universe. For all you know, their heatsinks are 100X more efficient than what we have today.

And in any case, as they did work in ME1, it can be inferred that they should work in ME2.

I don't mind a retcon if I feel it's warranted. I never thought the ultra fast cooling of parts that should be obscenely hot made any sense so I certainly don't mind that it's not the case in ME2.

[Kronner]

I don't care about codex explanations or whatever, playing ME2 (combat) is simply great experience, that's the bottom line for me.

[SalsaDMA]

Are you aware that your example of something that contains heat is actually something that radiates heat?

Nevermind that thermal clips obviously radiate heat, or else Zaeed wouldn't have been able to ignite that fuel spill with a spent clip during his loyalty mission (and they wouldn't glow and sizzle).

My example was to give an easy visualization of something that emitted alot less heat than it actually contained. I prefer to asume that a future weaponsgrade heat containemant system would be slightly more effective than just covering something with ash. The example still serves its purpose to make people able to visualize how such a thing can actually be possible, though.

Ejected clips radiate heat, yes. But if they did that while inside the weapon they would be practically useless.

No, they don't.

1) They don't function the way the game's own lore dictates they should function by allowing the weapons to fire faster and for more prolonged periods, as the weapons in ME1 were equal in terms of rate-of-fire and with mods could be made far superior in prolonged use. They are a technological downgrade that's being passed off as an upgrade.

How many shot do the guns actually fire? Can you tell? There is no ammo counters anywhere and since we already several years ago in the real world have made weapons that fire fast enough for people not to be able to differentiate between the sound of different shots (meaning it sounds like one single shot when you fire multiples) how are you so fire-sure certain that the weapons are not, in fact, firing faster?

2) They don't function the way the Law of Thermodynamics dictates they should function, with the thermal clips storing heat indefiniately and never dissipating it to the point where you can fire a single shot from your pistol, put it away and never use it again until the final boss battle and the heat generated from that single shot will still be present in the clip. They function instead as ammo pure and simple.

Not being able to fire without a thermal clip in ME2 is no different than your ME1 weapon not allowing you to fire while the weapon detects that it could be harmfull to fire that shot.

Nobody said the clips are storing heat indefinately. They just don't emit at a rate that is anywhere close to harmfull while inside the weapon. Once you eject the 'contaminated' part, it emits heat quite alot (as witnessed by the burning hot clips that get ejected by weapons in cutscenes).

Their practical usage ends up as akin to ammo from other games, but the theory behind them is different. Not to mention that depending on how fast guns shoot in ME3 we might even see 2 'ammo counters'. One for actual rounds in your clips, and one for thermal clips storing heat. Not that I think it likely, as it would prob mess things up for the console crowd, but it is a theoretical possibility that the current lore would be able to carry if implemented.

3) ME2's lore claims that thermal clip technology was learned from the Geth, yet the Geth in ME1 never used thermal clips and in fact the player himself had access to Geth weaponry in ME1 that functioned exactly the same as Council weaponry, making thermal clips a retcon.

Gameplay mechanics 101.

I'm sorry you want everything in the game to be perfect, but things just aren't when making games. Sometimes you have to take some short cuts to be able to make the product in time. This includes not having to implement and test totally different game mechanics for singular cases in the game (like your example, or the example some other people uses of Jacob's loyalty mission). Especially since there has to be gameplay consideration added as well. Like, do you really want to put the player in a scenario where his weapons run out of clips and can't be used after that, having to rely on powers or melee alone? Or in your case, do you really want to give the player a weapon, and then tell him: "Nyeah nyeah, you can't use it, cause it follows a science you don't understand, and researching stuff isn't part of the game"

4) Thermal clips are found in many places in ME2 where they don't belong, like on Aeia during Jacob's loyalty mission and in Zaeed's 5-year-old retired assault rifle 'Jessie'.

See above. Jessie is a Q&A oversight by stressed people. There are lots of those, the most obvious one being the cutscenes where Shepard holds an assault rifle despite not carrying one. Another of those is in another part in a mission where a weapons and arts collector refits a historically significant and collectable weapon some worth to use thermal clips. I mean... What real collector would destroy the value of his own item like that?

5) The only heat management system that does make sense is a hybrid system. Throwing out the passive cooling of weaponry from ME1 in favor of a system that provides no real benefit and requires the use of a highly limited resource without which the weapons are rendered permanently useless makes no logcical or logistical sense.

There is a benefit, you appearantly just can't see it with 'the naked eye' or hear it with your human biologically limited ear.

Funny, weapons seemed to work just fine in ME1 before thermal clips were even invented. I can't recall a single instance where my weapons destroyed themselves...

But you can recall several times where your weapon prevented itself from firing, because the current implemented heat-combatitive elements wouldn't be able to cope with one extra shot. Just like in thermal clip fitted weapons.

Yeah, you can make the argument that internal heatsinks were removed from all weaponry in the universe in favor of the new thermal clip system and thus heat has nowhere to go but into the thermal clips, but that again just proves what a bone-headed and illogical idea thermal clips were in the first place.

Not really.

Let's look at it this way.

One weapon, the ME1 gun, can be 'upgraded' in various ways. However, the kinetic impact per shot has a certain treshold which is limited both by components on the weapon being needed to combat extra heat, and by components on the weapon increasing the impact. At one point the heat per shot becomes too much, and you can't really go further. You can simulate this in ME1 by using explosive rounds and jacking up +damage mods at the expense of heat. Awesome firepower per shot, but can't go further, and needs to cooldown more or less after every shot.

Now take a thermal clip weapon. All the heat gets redirected into heat clips. No further components are needed to combat extra heat generated, and the amount of heat being able to be drawn from the weapon is in practically unlimited per shot. In theory limited, ofc, but in a region which we wouldn't be able to reach practically. This means that damage upgrades doesn't limit your rate of fire like in ME1. Nor is there the same hardcap on just how much extra kinetic impact you can squeeze out of it.

Now put the 2 weapons side by side at a firing range, shooting at a target powered by the latest in kinetic shields, and ducking behind cover between every shot. Which of the 2 weapons do you think will perform better?

In my opinion, the ME2 model wins hands down here.

[lazuli]

Kronner wrote...

I don't care about codex explanations or whatever, playing ME2 (combat) is simply great experience, that's the bottom line for me.

Same.  Thankfully, enjoyable gameplay seems to take precedence over rigid adherence to lore.

[Praetor Knight]

NewMessageN00b wrote...

It's all you do do in this game - shoot and collect clips. It's worse when it distracts from other awesome aspects of the game in such a dumb way.

Well, maybe after combat, the clips refill automatically in ME3, so no clip collecting. Lore-wise it's done by using the Omnitool to turn Items into Omnigel, and then make new thermal clips. (ME had the turn items into Omnigel after combat part, right?)
Problem solved.

[sinosleep]

Praetor Shepard wrote...

Well, maybe after combat, the clips refill automatically in ME3, so no clip collecting. Lore-wise it's done by using the Omnitool to turn Items into Omnigel, and then make new thermal clips. (ME had the turn items into Omnigel after combat part, right?)
Problem solved.

Post combat refills wouldn't bother me the way a hybrid system would. With post combat refills devs can still regulate the amount of ammo that players get per encounter. With any kind of ME 1 style over heating you WILL run into players simply sitting around and circumventing any ammo counts by waiting for their weapons to cool.

[Praetor Knight]

sinosleep wrote...

Post combat refills wouldn't bother me the way a hybrid system would. With post combat refills devs can still regulate the amount of ammo that players get per encounter. With any kind of ME 1 style over heating you WILL run into players simply sitting around and circumventing any ammo counts by waiting for their weapons to cool.

Anything more would be icing on the cake for me.




*****************************
On a side note, I don't mind being wrong, and my opinions and ideas are still pretty fluid anyway, so however it goes, I hope that most of ME2 combat is here to stay.

Modifié par Praetor Shepard, 11 janvier 2011 - 06:13 .

[Jorina Leto]

lazuli wrote...

Kronner wrote...

I don't care about codex explanations or whatever, playing ME2 (combat) is simply great experience, that's the bottom line for me.

Same.  Thankfully, enjoyable gameplay seems to take precedence over rigid adherence to lore.

But the way it is shipped I do not regard the combat as enjoyable.

The hybrid systen is still the only system that makes sense if you do want to use thermal clips.


But the best way is still the option in the gameplay menu to choose between
Standard Shooter Mechanic
or
Hybrid System
or
Overheat System

with this there would be no need for this discussion.