451 réponses à ce sujet

[Terror_K]

Epic777 wrote...

~Raises Hand~
Open question: The ME series has always been a Action RPG specifically TPS-RPG. Why would it be a bad thing to draw inspiration from successful shooters when the series is partially a TPS?

No one???

It's not a bad thing, but the TPS side of things has dominated the game too much. If BioWare had actually just tweaked the combat and improved it slightly and kept it at that things would have been fine, but so many other RPG factors went the way of the dodo that just simply didn't need to and weren't even related to combat directly. BioWare removed the aspect of a stat determining one's ability to shoot, tweaked the AI a bit, and generally made combat more TPS-esque. That's all good and well, but it doesn't excuse and explain why other elements such as RPG customisation, non-combat skills, etc. also seeming had to go.

Simply put, they overstreamlined things because today's mainstream gaming audience don't like any form of complexity at all getting in the way of things. I'm sure somebody will pipe up with "RPGs aren't rocket science" or something to that effect, but don't tell that to me, tell that to the casual gamer who whines, moans and throws a hissy fit as soon as they see a stat bar, number that isn't an ammo counter and come across anything getting in the way of their killing and slowing down the pace of the game too much. No... RPGs aren't rocket science, but you wouldn't know given the audience game developers are catering to and the games that are the big sellers.

To sum it up: the RPG stuff didn't need to suffer for the combat to be improved, but it did.

That aside, if you're going to implement TPS factors you also need to do more than simply replicate only their base factors and leave it at that. ME2 combat may be technically better from a mechanical standpoint, but it's shallow, repetitive and boring. Gears of War actually does a better job of it because it at least manages to use combat to its full potential and manages to change things up a bit, incorporate puzzles and varied scenarios into the gameplay without deviating from it too much and bring interesting boss fights and other situations to the player. ME2 is pretty much just a case of rinse and repeat all the time and doesn't really do anything special combat wise. It's all just "find waist-high cover, shoot it out, proceed to next cut-scene or section of waist-high cover, rinse and repeat" etc. On top of that the levels themselves don't feel natural enough, coming across as linear, small and overly designed.

Now granted, I actually feel LotSB fixed some of these later factors, by giving us a few more interesting enemies, scenarios and better designed levels. Hopefully ME3 will continue the  trend further. Some of the N7 missions also exhibted examples of how they could have done things a bit better in this regard, but they need to integrate these type of things more rather than just separating them, whereby they just feel gimmicky.

Bennyjammin79 wrote...

I'm still laughing at the fact that people have mistaken ME for anything other than a shooter. Sure there are some RPG elements in there too but I've always viewed it as a TPS.

Despite the fact that ME1 was always officially referred to as an RPG or Action RPG by BioWare themselves, and that the original Mass Effect has far more RPG elements than shooter ones. It wasn't until ME2 started to come along that BioWare and others started using the term "shooter" and saying things like "ME2 is as much a shooter as it is an RPG" etc.

Modifié par Terror_K, 12 janvier 2011 - 06:08 .

[sinosleep]

Terror_K wrote..

Despite the fact that ME1 was always officially referred to as an RPG or Action RPG by BioWare themselves, and that the original Mass Effect has far more RPG elements than shooter ones. It wasn't until ME2 started to come along that BioWare and others started using the term "shooter" and saying things like "ME2 is as much a shooter as it is an RPG" etc.

Terror_K is spot on here. He uses the argument to support his points and I use the very same argument to support my own. I've always felt that while ME 1 may have attempted to be a hybrid (not just featuring guns, but outright having you place a curser on a target) it was far more of an RPG with guns than any kind of mix of the two styles of gameplay.

You had stat based accuracy, pause aiming, no location based damage, etc, etc, etc. The game had guns but the mechanics were firmly in RPG territory. To some people that's not a bad thing, to other it is, that's where a lot of the divide comes in between posters.

[Epic777]

Well me3 is going to have more RPG elements and if overlord and LOTSB are anything to go by they are listening to the complaints.

[didymos1120]

008Zulu wrote...

Geth weapons are supposed to be plasma based, why have clips at all when they'd use an internal power source.

OK, one: they're not plasma-based. The geth plasma shotgun doesn't even fire plasma.  It fires clusters of little superconducting slugs.  If you charge it, those slugs have an electrical charge which causes the AIR to breakdown electrically and form a plasma.  Other weapons they use just fire normal rounds or phasic rounds.  The only ones that might actually fling plasma (going by appearance) are the cannon on armatures and colossi, but since the codex says they're mass accelerators, I'd say they're like scaled up versions of the plasma shotgun.

And two:  even if they did, they'd still be generating a ton of heat, because everything generates heat.  Especially, you know, high-temperature plasmas and internal power supplies good enough to make that possible.

Modifié par didymos1120, 12 janvier 2011 - 07:06 .

[Captain_Obvious_au]

Christina Norman wrote...

Ultimately this decision was driven by our improved combat gameplay design for ME2, but was fully backed up by our continually developing IP.

With all due respect Christina, the IP explanation is moronic. Essentially Bioware's explanation is

"the Geth figured out the person who wins is the person who fires the most rounds. therefore we've changed your weapon so that instead of never overheating, it will now stop every few seconds and eventually stop working completely. At that point, you have to expose yourself to enemy fire to find more ammunition".

So, as said, stupid. What the IP explanation SHOULD have been is something like

"the Geth figured out that if the weapons fire at a greater velocity etc [insert something scientific sounding] then the rounds will be 300% more effective than in the older style weapons. This means that whilst you won't be able to shoot as often, you'll do a lot more damage".

See? Not stupid.

[Praetor Knight]

Captain_Obvious_au wrote...

"the Geth figured out the person who wins is the person who fires the most rounds. therefore we've changed your weapon so that instead of never overheating, it will now stop every few seconds and eventually stop working completely. At that point, you have to expose yourself to enemy fire to find more ammunition".

I've complained about that before too, before I figured out how to play better within ME2's combat restrictions (which are rather generous anyway).

And IME as the Soldier class, there are only a small handfull of areas where certain weapon loadouts are a problem anyway.


********************************************************************************
At any rate, I've been mulling the lore and gameplay stuff and decided to make a blog entry to work it through with a possible theory that is still a WIP.

[Captain_Obvious_au]

Well keep in mind that I'm not having a go at ME2's combat system, just the way they explained it in-game

[Praetor Knight]

Captain_Obvious_au wrote...

Well keep in mind that I'm not having a go at ME2's combat system, just the way they explained it in-game

Yeah, it's just that, for me, I'm not a fan of that sort of description of ME2 Combat, but I agree that there are some rough edges nonetheless.



IMHO, it is a lack of explaination in-game of how weapons work, from ME to ME2, with the new Thermal Clips.
That's also why I've started a blog entry, where I'm trying to fill in the blanks as best I can. 

Modifié par Praetor Shepard, 12 janvier 2011 - 08:49 .

[s0meguy6665]

sinosleep wrote...

s0meguy6665 wrote...

BW/EA don't care about the integrity of the game. Only about making it into some brainless shooter.

Yeah, because you have to be a rocket scientist to play RPGs. Yay, my sig comes to life yet again.

That's a strawman, absolutely not what i was implying. I enjoy shooters too sometimes. But if you're a proponent of turning ME into one, then go somewhere else, to one of the other hundreds of shooters that are already out there. Leave (some of the last) quality RPG's alone.

[tenshi_no_hone]

What the hell happened? No-one's going to buy into this fakeout

[Fiery Phoenix]

Did the OP just change everything from thermal clips to 3D?

[Bogsnot1]

Yep. OP retconned his thread title.

[Elvis_Mazur]

FieryPhoenix7 wrote...

Did the OP just change everything from thermal clips to 3D?

Noticed that too. Although I thought it was a new thread.

[Nicator]

Captain_Obvious_au wrote...
With all due respect Christina,
the IP explanation is moronic. Essentially Bioware's explanation is

"the Geth figured out the person who wins is the person who fires the most rounds. therefore we've changed your weapon so that instead of never overheating, it will now stop every few seconds and eventually stop working completely. At that point, you have to expose yourself to enemy fire to find more ammunition".

Actually it should
read something like this:

"The Geth figured out the person who wins is the person who fires the most rounds, therefore we've changed your weapon so that instead of deliberately keeping down your firepower you are now able to shoot away at will, only stopping for a mere one or two seconds to pluck in anotherthermal clip, which is much faster than waiting for your weapon to cooldown, should you make the mistake of letting it overheat. Also, you're unlikely to actually run out of thermal clips, provided that the military behind you is not incompetent and/or has an insufficient logistical capacity, since running out of clips in the middle of battle is obviously a gameplay measure to make sure that the player is not able to overuse the strongest of weapons like the widow or the mattock and puts more thought into chosing when to use which weapon."

Doens't sound that bad when you put it like this.

Modifié par Nicator, 12 janvier 2011 - 11:50 .

[AL JA]

the original topic was about heat sinks and the op changed it to make it look like everyone wants 3d in mass effect 3. oh dear

[Captain_Obvious_au]

Nicator wrote...

Actually it should read something like this:

"The Geth figured out the person who wins is the person who fires the most rounds, therefore we've changed your weapon so that instead of deliberately keeping down your firepower you are now able to shoot away at will, only stopping for a mere one or two seconds to pluck in anotherthermal clip, which is much faster than waiting for your weapon to cooldown, should you make the mistake of letting it overheat. Also, you're unlikely to actually run out of thermal clips, provided that the military behind you is not incompetent and/or has an insufficient logistical capacity, since running out of clips in the middle of battle is obviously a gameplay measure to make sure that the player is not able to overuse the strongest of weapons like the widow or the mattock and puts more thought into chosing when to use which weapon."

Doens't sound that bad when you put it like this.

True, but it still doesn't make sense. You're clearly firing at the same rate or slower than in ME1.

On another note, the OP is a tosser.

[Gibb_Shepard]

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!



My god, what a moron.

[Kronner]

OP should be banned.

[Fredvdp]

Probably the same guy who spammed the boards with 3D requests and got banned because of it.

[Nicator]

Captain_Obvious_au wrote...

True, but it still doesn't make sense. You're clearly firing at the same rate or slower than in ME1.

Depends. The codex says soldiers had to shoot slower for the sake of heat management, so it can be argued that the weapons found on the lower levels are a more 'realistic' representation of how pre-thermal-clip guns actually behaved. Just think back to those first few levels of ME1. With your AR you had to use short, controlled bursts to avoid a premature overheat. Here thermal clips are an improvement, even from a gameplay perspective.
Of course comparing the guns of ME2 to modded Spectre Gear is a non-issue. Guns that neither overheat nor need to be reloaded can't be beaten. My point is simply that they don't exist outside of gameplay.

[AntiChri5]

Wow!



A transforming troll!!!!!

[Babli]

This must be like 9000th thread about this by the same guy. Permanent ban is needed here.

[Bogsnot1]

All I can say is, now that this shill has gone along and done this, the chances of me buying another nVidia card again have dropped even further. Their habit of factory overclocking old cards, giving them a different name, and flogging them off as "new" had them on tenuous grounds to start with.

As for their 3d tech, if I was that desperate for seeing something in 3d, I'd look out the window.