451 réponses à ce sujet

[The Smoking Man]

SalsaDMA wrote...

The Smoking Man wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...

The Smoking Man wrote...
A weapon that requires thermal clips when all the thermal clips have been used up is less usable than a weapon that does not require thermal clips but has overheated and needs to cool down for a few seconds.

Anyone going into combat without stocking up on ammo before hand is asking to die. You cannot base your entire argument on "But but but, if the extremely artificial situation that someone was stupid enough to enter an engagement without bringing along ammo for their weapons, THEN the other system would be better!!!"

By now your whole argument relies on a scenario where basicly, a baseball club would be an even better weapon than either of the 2 ammo models.

There is a thing called proper preparation. It's a thing anyone dealing with combat engagements deals with. And bringing along a proper amount of ammo is one of the things you just do. Ammo doesn't weigh enough that it is EVER going to be an issue, especially not in the ME universe.

Your claim of running out of ammo as being an actual issue is more a claim that every user of firearms is a nutjob that couldn't hit the broadside of a barn if he was standing 1 meter from it. Otherwise there is no way in hell that people would run out of ammo.

Can you stop with the irrelevant analogies already?

As for "artifical situations", how about the one where Shepard and two of his squadmates mow down hordes of enemy troops in one sitting? Where Shepard also wisely only brings enough thermal clips to fire his Widow 13 times.

Irrelevant. You're comparing a permanent but hugely impractical power supply system to a disposable but practical one. Practical, permanent heat dissipation systems for weapons have already been demonstrated by ME1.

Very relevant. I was making an anology to show you that you CANNOT make a simple claim of 'this attribute universally means that an item with it is superior'. The example made it quite clear that the attribute of 'unlimited ammo' was not the 'be all, end all' atribute some people seem to claim it is, but rather an insignificant attribute of the whole package.

Very irrelevant. The factor relevant to your example was practicality (huge obviously non-portable power plant, or portable power cell?), not disposable or non-disposable.

Edit: This is a total pyramid quote nightmare...

Modifié par The Smoking Man, 10 janvier 2011 - 06:55 .

[SalsaDMA]

The Smoking Man wrote...

Irrelevant and gross exaggeration. ME1's guns didn't force you to wait after every shot, unless you're talking about some stupid shotgun or sniper rifle with high explosive rounds and scram rails for mods. Try again.

The "bad tactical choice" in my argument applies to drawn-out firefights/large-scale warfare.

You might want to re-examine the reasons given by lore for why the weapon technology was upgraded.

And I find it funny that anything you appearantly don't understand you dismiss as 'irrelevant'.

[The Smoking Man]

Phaedon wrote...

I am not speaking in hypotheticals, The Smoking Man, there is no way that you can survive CQB with a (temporarily) disabled gun. And yes, "CQB" is the kind of combat ME2 had.

If you were playing a Vanguard, yes. As for your arguments that having to wait for your weapon to cool down would cause you to get instakilled, try playing ME1 again (it also helps if you don't throw high explosive rounds and whatnot on all your weapons).

[The Smoking Man]

SalsaDMA wrote...

The Smoking Man wrote...

Irrelevant and gross exaggeration. ME1's guns didn't force you to wait after every shot, unless you're talking about some stupid shotgun or sniper rifle with high explosive rounds and scram rails for mods. Try again.

The "bad tactical choice" in my argument applies to drawn-out firefights/large-scale warfare.

You might want to re-examine the reasons given by lore for why the weapon technology was upgraded.

And I find it funny that anything you appearantly don't understand you dismiss as 'irrelevant'.

You mean the one that says "obvious retcon is obvious"?

And I find it funny that anything you "APPEARANTLY" don't understand you dismiss as "irrelevant" (and throw in some atrocious analogies to try to supplement it).

Modifié par The Smoking Man, 10 janvier 2011 - 06:54 .

[Phaedon]

Shepard's extreme health is OOC. If I wanted to play Insanity again, I could prove you how it would be an instakill.



Regardless of real world application, your point is moot, I was only out of ammo once, and that was in the final level.

[The Smoking Man]

Phaedon wrote...

Shepard's extreme health is OOC. If I wanted to play Insanity again, I could prove you how it would be an instakill.

Obviously you've never abused the snowblind round ammo mod.

[SalsaDMA]

You don't understand retcon.



Retcon = The battle of the citadel didn't include any alliance dreadnoughts (even admitted by the devs)



Retcon =/= evolving the gameworld through logically sound explenations.



You stopped having any real arguments by now, as what little you had were shown to be wrong already by both me and others.



At this point we're just at the stage were you seem to be keep writing random stuff because you can't accept your initial assumptions were off.



*shrug*

[The Smoking Man]

SalsaDMA wrote...

You don't understand retcon.

Retcon = The battle of the citadel didn't include any alliance dreadnoughts (even admitted by the devs)

Retcon =/= evolving the gameworld through logically sound explenations.

Retcon (retroactive continuity). Try again.

You stopped having any real arguments by now, as what little you had were shown to be wrong already by both me and others.

At this point we're just at the stage were you seem to be keep writing random stuff because you can't accept your initial assumptions were off.

*shrug*

Agent Smith: "You're empty!"
Neo: "So are you."

[Jorina Leto]

Phaedon wrote...

The Smoking Man wrote...
Modern combat doesn't have mass effect shields/barriers/tech armor.

Ask the mercs that you kill. Three shots, your shields are down, every shot from now on is lethal, but not if you shoot back, since your opponent doesn't even have a shield, but damn, your gun has overheated.

If you have to reload you're screwed too... so where is your argument?

Phaedon wrote...

Jorina Leto wrote...
So guess what happens if you're running out of thermal clips Your weapons are useless for the rest of the fight. Yeah this an improvment to just wait a few seconds.

Yeah well, I am pretty sure that this isn't a huge problem in modern warfare, is it? And that is when a common soldier has even less ammo than Shepard does.

The fact, that weapons are cooling themself down has been established in ME1. That weapons in ME2 don't cool down contradicts the lore. The hybird system is the only system that make sense and where heat sinks are an improvement.

21st century warfare is is outdated in the 22nd century. So keep it.

[SalsaDMA]

The Smoking Man wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...

You don't understand retcon.

Retcon = The battle of the citadel didn't include any alliance dreadnoughts (even admitted by the devs)

Retcon =/= evolving the gameworld through logically sound explenations.

Retcon (retroactive continuity). Try again.

You stopped having any real arguments by now, as what little you had were shown to be wrong already by both me and others.

At this point we're just at the stage were you seem to be keep writing random stuff because you can't accept your initial assumptions were off.

*shrug*

Agent Smith: "You're empty!"
Neo: "So are you."

You might want to try and actually read that link of yours

[The Smoking Man]

SalsaDMA wrote...


You might want to try and actually read that link of yours

So should you.

Edit: Some Fridge Logic may also be required to think this through.

Modifié par The Smoking Man, 10 janvier 2011 - 07:08 .

[Phaedon]

Jorina Leto wrote...
If you have to reload you're screwed too... so where is your argument?

Thank you for proving my argument. 15-30 seconds should be objectively viewed as more than 2 seconds.

Phaedon wrote...
The fact, that weapons are cooling themself down has been established in ME1. That weapons in ME2 don't cool down contradicts the lore. The hybird system is the only system that make sense and where heat sinks are an improvement.

21st century warfare is is outdated in the 22nd century. So keep it.

Technolodgy advances, what's your problem with it?
Also, we don't use thermal clips in the 21st century.

[SalsaDMA]

The Smoking Man wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...


You might want to try and actually read that link of yours

So should you.

/facepalm

Ok. So it's clear that you have a comprehension problem, since you appearantly don't actually understand what you linked yourself.

Given this, there's no point in continuing arguing with you, since you show no means of actually being wanting to follow real logic in arguments.

Your last couple of posts have been "no U" kinda things and potshots usin topics you don't even seem to understand, given your usage of them.

Have fun trolling

[Jorina Leto]

Dark_Dahlia wrote...

Jorina Leto wrote...

HTTP 404 wrote...

its just a game play mechanic which I like

But I do not like it. I usually do not play shooters. And if it weren't the sequel of a good bioware rpg I wouldn't have bougth it.

Bioware, please add an option to choose the prefered combat mode. Then the shooter fans can have their standard shooter gamplay and everyone else can enjoy the game as well.

If they were to bring back the system from ME1 wouldn't that just cause further storyline issues than just sticking with thermal clips?

Just a comment by Shepard that he/she is glad to get a good weapon without that sucking thermal clips. And when the temporary squad mate dies at the beginnig because he kept using thermal clips an ran out of them everything is fine.

[The Smoking Man]

Phaedon wrote...

Thank you for proving my argument. 15-30 seconds should be objectively viewed as more than 2 seconds.

Indeed, which is also much more than the 5 seconds it took for my stupid high explosive rounds shotgun to cool down after being fired.

[Phaedon]

The Smoking Man wrote...
Indeed, which is also much more than the 5 seconds it took for my stupid high explosive rounds shotgun to cool down after being fired.

Which was a ridiculously overpowered weapon that is the exception of the rule and doesn't provide with a motive against advancing technology?

Also, 5 seconds are more than 2 seconds.

[Jorina Leto]

Phaedon wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

Jorina Leto wrote...
If you have to reload you're screwed too... so where is your argument?

Thank you for proving my argument. 15-30 seconds should be objectively viewed as more than 2 seconds.

And when your out of clips you're really screwed...

Phaedon wrote...

Phaedon wrote...
The fact, that weapons are cooling themself down has been established in ME1. That weapons in ME2 don't cool down contradicts the lore. The hybird system is the only system that make sense and where heat sinks are an improvement.

21st century warfare is is outdated in the 22nd century. So keep it.

Technolodgy advances, what's your problem with it?
Also, we don't use thermal clips in the 21st century.

You didn't get. The supposed advancement doesn't exist in the gameplay.

[Praetor Knight]

Jorina Leto wrote...

Just a comment by Shepard that he/she is glad to get a good weapon without that sucking thermal clips. And when the temporary squad mate dies at the beginnig because he kept using thermal clips an ran out of them everything is fine.

Then an enemy engineer goes ha! Sabotage! And Shep follows suit 

[The Smoking Man]

SalsaDMA wrote...

The Smoking Man wrote...

SalsaDMA wrote...


You might want to try and actually read that link of yours

So should you.

/facepalm

Ok. So it's clear that you have a comprehension problem, since you appearantly don't actually understand what you linked yourself.

Given this, there's no point in continuing arguing with you, since you show no means of actually being wanting to follow real logic in arguments.

Your last couple of posts have been "no U" kinda things and potshots usin topics you don't even seem to understand, given your usage of them.

Have fun trolling

/facepalm

Ok. So it's clear that you have a comprehension problem, since you
appearantly don't actually understand what you linked yourself.

Given
this, there's no point in continuing arguing with you, since you show
no means of actually being wanting to follow real logic in arguments.

Your
last couple of posts have been "no U" kinda things and potshots usin
topics you don't even seem to understand, given your usage of them.

Have fun trolling

Good, now that you can't argue anymore and can only resort to personal attacks, allow me to deconstruct your argument about the retcon.

Retcon = The battle of the citadel didn't include any alliance dreadnoughts (even admitted by the devs)

Retcon =/= evolving the gameworld through logically sound explenations.

The first one is an oversight, not a retcon. One installment of something can't logically retcon its own self.

The thermal clip retcon is a retcon.

To eliminate this inefficiency, the geth adopted detachable heat sinks
known as thermal clips. While organic arms manufacturers were initially
doubtful this would produce a net gain, a well-trained soldier can eject
and swap thermal clips in under a second. Faced with superior enemy
firepower, organic armies soon followed the geth's lead, and today's
battlefields are littered with these thermal clips.

Focus on the first sentence. Now, find a Geth Pulse Rifle in ME1. Guess what ammo system it uses. Also consider that weapons from roughly 10 years ago also use thermal clips now (Jacob's loyalty mission), and that Jessie, a weapon that's "older than [Shepard]", also uses thermal clips (it was also "retired", meaning completely busted, 5 years ago, 3 years before thermal clips were adopted, which dismisses the possibility that it was retrofitted).

Modifié par The Smoking Man, 10 janvier 2011 - 07:37 .

[Phaedon]

Jorina Leto wrote...
You didn't get. The supposed advancement doesn't exist in the gameplay.

I am pretty sure that I don't have to wait for my weapon to cool down. :happy:

[The Smoking Man]

Phaedon wrote...

The Smoking Man wrote...
Indeed, which is also much more than the 5 seconds it took for my stupid high explosive rounds shotgun to cool down after being fired.

Which was a ridiculously overpowered weapon that is the exception of the rule and doesn't provide with a motive against advancing technology?

Also, 5 seconds are more than 2 seconds.

5 seconds is 3 more seconds more than 2 seconds. Infinite ammo/shots is infinitely more than the 24 shots (that's with reloading using all the thermal clips you can carry for it at one time) I get from a Scimitar in ME2.

Modifié par The Smoking Man, 10 janvier 2011 - 07:27 .

[Praetor Knight]

The Smoking Man wrote...

The thermal clip retcon is a retcon.

To eliminate this inefficiency, the geth adopted detachable heat sinks known as thermal clips. While organic arms manufacturers were initially doubtful this would produce a net gain, a well-trained soldier can eject
and swap thermal clips in under a second. Faced with superior enemy firepower, organic armies soon followed the geth's lead, and today's battlefields are littered with these thermal clips.

Focus on the first sentence. Now, find a Geth Pulse Rifle in ME1. Guess what ammo system it uses. Also consider that weapons from roughly 10 years ago also use thermal clips now (Jacob's loyalty mission), and that Jessie, a weapon that's "older than [Shepard]", also uses thermal clips (it was also "retired" 5 years ago, 3 years before thermal clips were adopted, which dismisses the possibility that it was retrofitted).

I guess you disagreed with or ignored the gameplay convenience that I mentioned earlier regarding Jacob's LM as well.

Just as it is not feasible to have the Jacob LM with ME weapons it is not feasible to have ME2 weapons in ME. So I'm not sure why use this again.

Does Jessie use disposable Thermal Clips? Why would Zaeed retrofit if he does not want to? Could you explain this point further please, I'm still not clear on how it supports you position.

[Pwner1323]

Hybrid sistem for ME3 would please both parties perfectly. I myself enjoy the thermal clips very much (always hated the cooldown, it broke the game when you mix the spectre weapons and frictionless materials X. You can go with other stuff but I like using the best) and hope that they keep it for ME3 but hope you guys get what you want too. Hybrid is the way to go in this situation. I saw a MOD that implemented it very well. If BW copies it then we might get somewhere after all.

[The Smoking Man]

Praetor Shepard wrote...

I guess you disagreed with or ignored the gameplay convenience that I mentioned earlier regarding Jacob's LM as well.

Just as it is not feasible to have the Jacob LM with ME weapons it is not feasible to have ME2 weapons in ME. So I'm not sure why use this again.

Does Jessie use disposable Thermal Clips? Why would Zaeed retrofit if he does not want to? Could you explain this point further please, I'm still not clear on how it supports you position.

Yeah, it is clearly a gameplay convenience, no argument there. But it's a gameplay convenience that creates a retcon is my point.

And yes, Jessie uses Thermal Clips. Zaeed mentions not having to eject a clip once during one of his stores about her.

Modifié par The Smoking Man, 10 janvier 2011 - 07:31 .

[C-Gamer90]

Modifié par Dark_Dahlia, 10 janvier 2011 - 07:33 .