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Desire Spirit Liberation in DA?


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#51
Eclipse_9990

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Maria Caliban wrote...

Dasher1010 wrote...

Desire demons are by their nature evil. Good demons are always seen wearing armor and talking like stereotypical knights in shining armor. If a desire demon became good, it would probably look like Justice did in The Fade.


Since when does looking like an attractive woman mean one is evil?


You do know that form is only meant for entrapping mortals right? People are generally going to be manipulated a lot easier by a demon in the form of a beautiful woman, than a towering demon with huge arms, or a screaming demon with lava for skin.. 

Think of Desire demons like a predator.. Kind of like an Ardat Yakshi.. 

Modifié par Eclipse_9990, 10 janvier 2011 - 12:15 .


#52
ipgd

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This is just an exercise to see how gullible this forum is, right?

#53
Eclipse_9990

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Ladybright wrote...

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

Schneidend wrote...

Mutually-beneficial?

Maria...when "spirits" feed on you, it eventually kills you. Even if it didn't, it was suggested the ensorcelled templar in the Tower quest would simply die from dehydration, hunger, or exhaustion.


Don't bother.. She's just blinded by her strange infatuation with Desire Demons.. Theres no reasoning with her.. 


Clearly you missed the some of the humor threading through her posts?

It's an interesting topic nonetheless. I'm interested in everyone's replies. I always have trouble with the Templar in the Tower. Which would he prefer? Is it okay if he'd want it, or is consorting with demons always wrong? Etc., etc.


I know.. I was joking.. 

Modifié par Eclipse_9990, 10 janvier 2011 - 12:18 .


#54
ToJKa1

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Sorry, but ever since Doom the only way i'll interact with demos is with a shotgun. Or a plasma rifle. (And their closest medieval equivalents) :D

#55
Maria Caliban

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Talon_Wu wrote...

Ah, so you admit that that desire spirits/demons can be rotten?


As I said previously:

Maria Caliban wrote...

I'm not saying all spirits of desire are good. I'm saying that some are good while others are bad, but they all deserve a chance.


Modifié par Maria Caliban, 10 janvier 2011 - 02:57 .


#56
TJPags

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Eclipse_9990 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...

This thread is one of the reasons I was annoyed with Origins...and by extension, Awakening. Demons are always shown to be a chaotic evil that just want to see the world...and then make it burn. We never get to converse with the demons to see how they see the world. After talking to Justice it made it worse because for all we know, Fade Spirits could just have some sort of connection to lyrium and the demons are trying to get into this world and chase after lyrium but instead of being able to get an answer we are just supposed to kill them.


How the hell are we supposed to get answers from them when their trying to kill or enslave us.  I swear people will try to justify anything.. 


Neither the demon in Honleath, nor the one posessing Connor, immediately tried to kill you.  They fought to defend themselves.  Same with the one possessing the Templar.


The demon in honleath was going to posses a little girl(enslavement with eventual death of said little girl). The demon that possessed connor murdered tons of villagers(Killing) and turned the arls brother into a jester(Enslavement).. The Templar(Enslavement) nuff said.. 


The one in Honleath was bargaining to be let free - it had, you recall, been trapped and enslaved by the little girl's grandfather.  Nevertheless, it did not attack, it bargained.  And yes, of course it needs someone to possess.  I don't see possessing a little girl as worse than possessing anyone else.

The demon that possessed Connor was also keeping his father alive.  It was in the body of a small child, and was stuck with the limitation in that body/mind.  Yet, again, it offered a bargain.

Once again, the Templar seemed happy.  And again, the demon didn't attack immediately.

Possessing is what they do.  No different than the demon possessing Wynne.  They are limited by the minds of those they possess, that's all.

Please stop talking about eventual death - everyone dies eventually.  It doesn't sway me at all.

#57
Talon_Wu

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Maria Caliban wrote...
*snip* a variety of mutually-beneficial soul hosting arrangements. Wynne, Justice, Harren and Wade. *snip*

:lol:

A desire demon is a desire demon is a desire demon. They leech the life force from the host, much as a bad relationship between mortals does. Why you would want to invite something like that to play is beyond me.

Also, the above-quoted soul hosting arrangements are different from the usual possessing (abominating?) by demons proper. Wynne is being kept alive, not being leeched, and Justice didn't purposefully inhabit the body. He also has no desire to find another when that one falls apart, unlike desire demons. Wade would forget basic hygiene, as well as eating and sleeping, without Harren, so they're a little like Wynne's case, except the possessing spirit is external. ;)

#58
Eveangaline

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Most importantly...will Woman Hawke see a half naked sexy man when she looks at a desire demon? I need to know. For...research.

#59
XX-Pyro

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Talon_Wu wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...
*snip* a variety of mutually-beneficial soul hosting arrangements. Wynne, Justice, Harren and Wade. *snip*

:lol:

A desire demon is a desire demon is a desire demon. They leech the life force from the host, much as a bad relationship between mortals does. Why you would want to invite something like that to play is beyond me.

Also, the above-quoted soul hosting arrangements are different from the usual possessing (abominating?) by demons proper. Wynne is being kept alive, not being leeched, and Justice didn't purposefully inhabit the body. He also has no desire to find another when that one falls apart, unlike desire demons. Wade would forget basic hygiene, as well as eating and sleeping, without Harren, so they're a little like Wynne's case, except the possessing spirit is external. ;)


Speaking of which are Harren and Wade gay? I've never understood them :crying: 

#60
Maria Caliban

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Talon_Wu wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...
*snip* a variety of mutually-beneficial soul hosting arrangements. Wynne, Justice, Harren and Wade. *snip*

:lol:

A desire demon is a desire demon is a desire demon. They leech the life force from the host, much as a bad relationship between mortals does. Why you would want to invite something like that to play is beyond me.

Also, the above-quoted soul hosting arrangements are different from the usual possessing (abominating?) by demons proper. Wynne is being kept alive, not being leeched, and Justice didn't purposefully inhabit the body. He also has no desire to find another when that one falls apart, unlike desire demons. Wade would forget basic hygiene, as well as eating and sleeping, without Harren, so they're a little like Wynne's case, except the possessing spirit is external. ;)


A spirit can leech the life from another, but that's obviously not always the case. It's the opposite for Wynne. I suspect the one with Wade feeds off his 'creativity' or something and I don't see how he's weakened by it at all.

MBSH is simply one option for a spirit of desire. I'm interested in general liberation, which doesn't necessarily include that.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 10 janvier 2011 - 12:31 .


#61
TJPags

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Talon_Wu wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...
*snip* a variety of mutually-beneficial soul hosting arrangements. Wynne, Justice, Harren and Wade. *snip*

:lol:

A desire demon is a desire demon is a desire demon. They leech the life force from the host, much as a bad relationship between mortals does. Why you would want to invite something like that to play is beyond me.

Also, the above-quoted soul hosting arrangements are different from the usual possessing (abominating?) by demons proper. Wynne is being kept alive, not being leeched, and Justice didn't purposefully inhabit the body. He also has no desire to find another when that one falls apart, unlike desire demons. Wade would forget basic hygiene, as well as eating and sleeping, without Harren, so they're a little like Wynne's case, except the possessing spirit is external. ;)


Let's see, increased happiness, power for a short time v a long unfulfilling life.

Nope, can't see why anyone would want that.  Posted Image

#62
Seagloom

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Maria Caliban wrote...

I think they're called demons so people feel good about attacking and killing them. It's just an easy label to slap on a spirit so a player can murder them and not have to think about the morality of the act.

Thank you. Spirits of desire are obviously intelligent. They, and mortals they're hosting with, are not mad dogs to be put down.


Yes, there is probably truth in that. I can see how others view them as evil in that desire demons are selfishly motivated. The Connor-demon and Kitty-demon in particular show a callous disregard for human life. They also seem to be silver-tongued negotiators that utilize trickery in making bargains. The Warden and company is able to deal with them on equal footing because the desire demon is at a disadvantage or simply outclassed. However, when the situation is to their advantage they can be very sneaky. However, here is the interesting part... I do not see them as evil. I see them as amoral. Yes, y'all who know me read that right. I consider Morrigan evil, but desire demons amoral... and here is why:

Desire demons--no, all demons, do not truly understand human morality and philosophy. They want to possess mortals to experience what mortals do. They *think* they understand mortals to an extent by mimicking their world, but their understanding is heavily warped as a stroll through the Fade indicates. If you were an armchair anthropologist trying to study a far flung pastoral culture by watching video footage, how much would you truly come to understand their culture? There is a reason anthropologists do field work. They need to live in a culture and immerse themselves in it for an extended period in order to learn anything useful about how it truly functions. A desire demon, cruel as it can be, is like a twisted anthropologist. It focuses on desire, because that is the facet of mortal experience that it most relates to and is fascinated by. It understands what someone may want at a superficial level, but it does not truly understand people. It will not hold the same value for life, liberty, and fairness a mortal does. Therefore I see it as an amoral entity. A potentially dangerous entity, but amoral all the same.

Another interesting aspect is that desire demons are labeled demons at all. In Ferelden at least, alternative sexuality and casual sex for enjoyment is not villified. There is a brothel freely operating in Denerim, with guard support no less; and no one seems hung up about sleeping around. Freedom and ambition are also seen as respectable things to strive for and nurture respectively as long as it is done so in a societally approved manner. The Chantry is the only area where there seems to be sexual restrictions in that sisters are spiritually married to the Maker and disallowed from engaging in sexual acts. The Chantry labels desire demons, demons, perhaps because their wanton embracing of desires, and in particular, lust, runs contrary to their ethos.

I can see where the OP and those who disagree are coming from.

Modifié par Seagloom, 10 janvier 2011 - 12:34 .


#63
Eclipse_9990

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TJPags wrote...

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

silentassassin264 wrote...

This thread is one of the reasons I was annoyed with Origins...and by extension, Awakening. Demons are always shown to be a chaotic evil that just want to see the world...and then make it burn. We never get to converse with the demons to see how they see the world. After talking to Justice it made it worse because for all we know, Fade Spirits could just have some sort of connection to lyrium and the demons are trying to get into this world and chase after lyrium but instead of being able to get an answer we are just supposed to kill them.


How the hell are we supposed to get answers from them when their trying to kill or enslave us.  I swear people will try to justify anything.. 


Neither the demon in Honleath, nor the one posessing Connor, immediately tried to kill you.  They fought to defend themselves.  Same with the one possessing the Templar.


The demon in honleath was going to posses a little girl(enslavement with eventual death of said little girl). The demon that possessed connor murdered tons of villagers(Killing) and turned the arls brother into a jester(Enslavement).. The Templar(Enslavement) nuff said.. 


The one in Honleath was bargaining to be let free - it had, you recall, been trapped and enslaved by the little girl's grandfather.  Nevertheless, it did not attack, it bargained.  And yes, of course it needs someone to possess. (1) I don't see possessing a little girl as worse than possessing anyone else.

(2)The demon that possessed Connor was also keeping his father alive.  It was in the body of a small child, and was stuck with the limitation in that body/mind.  Yet, again, it offered a bargain.

(3)Once again, the Templar seemed happy.  And again, the demon didn't attack immediately.

Possessing is what they do.  (4)No different than the demon possessing Wynne.  They are limited by the minds of those they possess, that's all.

(5)Please stop talking about eventual death - everyone dies eventually.  It doesn't sway me at all.


1. I'm not even going to touch this.. 

2. And that offsets the intended genocide of the Redcliff villagers, and enslavement of Connors uncle how? Oh and yeah she/it was keeping Arl Eamon alive but in a perpetual nightmare with no hope of escape.. 

3. Sigh.. So what if he "seemed happy" she stole his mind, made him a vegetable, and is feeding on him like the parasite she is.. I wonder what your views are on the Las Plagus parasite from Resident evil 4.. Sure it makes you stronger, if you don't mind a giant insect/worm growing inside you and taking over your mind.. 

4. Um there is a difference Wynne has her free will, and isn't murdering random people for the "lulz".

5. Jeez your that decided huh? If your so sure about this go ahead and believe what you want.. I'm not going to teaching someone who clearly doesn't want to be taught.. 

Modifié par Eclipse_9990, 10 janvier 2011 - 12:40 .


#64
TJPags

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Eclipse_9990 wrote...

1. I'm not even going to touch this.. 

2. And that offsets the intended genocide of the Redcliff villagers, and enslavement of Connors uncle how? Oh and yeah she/it was keeping Arl Eamon alive but in a perpetual limbo with no hope of escape.. 

3. Sigh.. So what if he was "happy" she stole his mind, made him a vegetable, and is feeding on him like the parasite she is.. I wonder what your views are on the Uroboros parasite from Resident evil 4.. Sure it makes you stronger, if you don't mind a giant insect/worm growing inside you and taking over your mind.. 

4. Um there is a difference Wynne has her free will, and isn't murdering random people for the "lulz".

5. Jeez your that decided huh? If your so sure about this go ahead and believe what you want.. I'm not going to teaching someone who clearly doesn't want to be taught.. 


1. Then don't.  Posted Image  Do children not have free will either?

2.  Again, that was limited by Connor's mind.  The one possessing the Templar wasn't murdering wholesale, was it?  An adult with greater freedom, and more control, could easily have had a different result.  The demon even mentions this.

3.  If I want to give up lifespan - which I'm not sure is a guarantee, but I'll assume it is - for happiness and power for a short period, why is that wrong, exactly?  Because it offends your morality?  Then don't do it.

4.  Well, let's see, other than the one possessing Connor, none of the desire demons we saw killed people "for the lulz".  They fought to defend themselves.   So, yea, don't get it.

4.  Teaching me?  Teaching me what , exactly?  Your code of morality, or how to live life?  Sorry, I have my own.  So you're right, I have no desire to be "taught" anything by you.  Take your classroom, and your superiority complex, elsewhere.

#65
solstickan

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Eveangaline wrote...

Most importantly...will Woman Hawke see a half naked sexy man when she looks at a desire demon? I need to know. For...research.


I want this! Come on, BioWare, give femHawke some of dat love!

Back on topic... I like that they let us make bargains with desire demons, but I fully expect that to be seen as an "evil" thing to do and repercussions should be inevitable. When I accepted the offers the demons made in DAO it was with a rather selfish, sinister character. They are demons, after all, even though you like to pretend they're not. 

Was this relevant? I don't know. I have worked all day and am tired and just wanted to share my thoughts before I went to bed... 

Modifié par solstickan, 10 janvier 2011 - 12:43 .


#66
RosaAquafire

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I think we're all being trolled, but the fact that I can't tell for sure or not means that it's a damn good one if it is :P

I also think that you're trying to make a point that is not, in fact, about Desire Entities at all, though I can't figure out what it is :D

In any case, though I'm STILL not sure you're not being fascetious, Maria, you definitely have made me think about the Desire Spirit/Demon encounters in DA:O. So good on you, there. I wouldn't call the girl in Honnleath's symboisis mutually beneficial, though, she seems very soul-dead, and her own self seems completely domninated by the Desire "spirit" who took her.

#67
Saibh

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I'm honestly very, very astonished people are taking Maria seriously here and scolding her on terms like spirit and demon.

Really now.

Modifié par Saibh, 10 janvier 2011 - 12:45 .


#68
crimzontearz

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ah Maria....I'd love the possibility of engaging a desire spirit in such a way to make her my lover...my slave...my mistress. After all she gives me her unconditonal love and pleasure beyond words in exchange for a chance to see the world through me....who is enslaved to whom then?



sighs dreamily



wait



what was I saying again?

#69
chunkyman

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Maria Taliban wrote...
 
I'm not saying all spirits of desire are good. I'm saying that some are good while others are bad, but they all deserve a chance.


Give them a chance? That's code word for surrender, and the Chantry has defended us from enemy combatants in this realm and the next. If you don't support the Chantry, the terrori.....er, demons win!

Tolerance = CUT-AND-RUN 

:P

#70
Saibh

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Modifié par Saibh, 10 janvier 2011 - 01:23 .


#71
Talon_Wu

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Saibh wrote...

I'm honestly very, very astonished people are taking Maria seriously here and scolding her on terms like spirit and demon.

Really now.


Check out her avatar. It's clear we're debating with one already ensorcelled.

And I never take Maria seriously. Seriously.

#72
Eclipse_9990

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TJPags wrote...

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

1. I'm not even going to touch this.. 

2. And that offsets the intended genocide of the Redcliff villagers, and enslavement of Connors uncle how? Oh and yeah she/it was keeping Arl Eamon alive but in a perpetual limbo with no hope of escape.. 

3. Sigh.. So what if he was "happy" she stole his mind, made him a vegetable, and is feeding on him like the parasite she is.. I wonder what your views are on the Uroboros parasite from Resident evil 4.. Sure it makes you stronger, if you don't mind a giant insect/worm growing inside you and taking over your mind.. 

4. Um there is a difference Wynne has her free will, and isn't murdering random people for the "lulz".

5. Jeez your that decided huh? If your so sure about this go ahead and believe what you want.. I'm not going to teaching someone who clearly doesn't want to be taught.. 


1. Then don't.  Posted Image  Do children not have free will either?

2.  Again, that was limited by Connor's mind.  The one possessing the Templar wasn't murdering wholesale, was it?  An adult with greater freedom, and more control, could easily have had a different result.  The demon even mentions this.

3.  If I want to give up lifespan - which I'm not sure is a guarantee, but I'll assume it is - for happiness and power for a short period, why is that wrong, exactly?  Because it offends your morality?  Then don't do it.

4.  Well, let's see, other than the one possessing Connor, none of the desire demons we saw killed people "for the lulz".  They fought to defend themselves.   So, yea, don't get it.

4.  Teaching me?  Teaching me what , exactly?  Your code of morality, or how to live life?  Sorry, I have my own.  So you're right, I have no desire to be "taught" anything by you.  Take your classroom, and your superiority complex, elsewhere.


Oh ho! Looks like someones getting a bit sensitive over here.. I don't know where you got "code of morality" from but  I don't know you dude. I don't care about your morals. You could be a serial killer and I wouldn't give a flying f***.
 Calm down its just a friendly debate okay? Its about give and take and not getting an aneurism over minor remarks. Maybe you should cool down and take a nice cold shower or something and come back when your ready okay buddy? Are you ready? Are you done? Good. Because me and my superiority complex want to continue this debate because its fun. 

#73
TJPags

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Eclipse_9990 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

1. I'm not even going to touch this.. 

2. And that offsets the intended genocide of the Redcliff villagers, and enslavement of Connors uncle how? Oh and yeah she/it was keeping Arl Eamon alive but in a perpetual limbo with no hope of escape.. 

3. Sigh.. So what if he was "happy" she stole his mind, made him a vegetable, and is feeding on him like the parasite she is.. I wonder what your views are on the Uroboros parasite from Resident evil 4.. Sure it makes you stronger, if you don't mind a giant insect/worm growing inside you and taking over your mind.. 

4. Um there is a difference Wynne has her free will, and isn't murdering random people for the "lulz".

5. Jeez your that decided huh? If your so sure about this go ahead and believe what you want.. I'm not going to teaching someone who clearly doesn't want to be taught.. 


1. Then don't.  Posted Image  Do children not have free will either?

2.  Again, that was limited by Connor's mind.  The one possessing the Templar wasn't murdering wholesale, was it?  An adult with greater freedom, and more control, could easily have had a different result.  The demon even mentions this.

3.  If I want to give up lifespan - which I'm not sure is a guarantee, but I'll assume it is - for happiness and power for a short period, why is that wrong, exactly?  Because it offends your morality?  Then don't do it.

4.  Well, let's see, other than the one possessing Connor, none of the desire demons we saw killed people "for the lulz".  They fought to defend themselves.   So, yea, don't get it.

4.  Teaching me?  Teaching me what , exactly?  Your code of morality, or how to live life?  Sorry, I have my own.  So you're right, I have no desire to be "taught" anything by you.  Take your classroom, and your superiority complex, elsewhere.


Oh ho! Looks like someones getting a bit sensitive over here.. I don't know where you got "code of morality" from but  I don't know you dude. I don't care about your morals. You could be a serial killer and I wouldn't give a flying f***.
 Calm down its just a friendly debate okay? Its about give and take and not getting an aneurism over minor remarks. Maybe you should cool down and take a nice cold shower or something and come back when your ready okay buddy? Are you ready? Are you done? Good. Because me and my superiority complex want to continue this debate because its fun. 


Yet you choose not to discuss any point except my response to your rather snarky line.  So what is there to discuss?  Posted Image

Frankly, this debate is, in fact, all about morality.  Chantry morality says demons are evil.  I'm not even so sure they make exceptions for other spirits - in fact, I'm inclined to think they don't.  Wynne is, after all, an abomination in the eyes of the Chantry, is she not, even though she is possessed by an apparently "benevolent" spirit?  After all, spirits live in the Fade, where mages can go at will - those evil mages.  They are the ones most often exposed to these beings, and can gain additional power through it.  And we don't want mages with more power, do we?

Yet when we actually have interaction with these demons, they don't seem so bad to me.  They seek to explore and learn - that's not so bad.  They offer us power in exchange.  That's not so bad.

The fact that some people are weak willed, and can't exert any control to balance the demons, well, that's a bad result.  Not enough to damn every fade spirit, IMO.

#74
CitizenThom

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Eveangaline wrote...

Most importantly...will Woman Hawke see a half naked sexy man when she looks at a desire demon? I need to know. For...research.


Bioware has been in the habit of making their games experiencable in so many ways... it would be interesting if desire demons came in a variety of forms, not just forms appealing to male lust and female lust, but also forms that appeal to mortal's lust for power, mortal's lust for renown and the like.

It does require more 3d modelling of course, but it'd fit the conception of a weakened veil during a blight... there'd be all sorts of things trying to find their way into the mortal world, right?

#75
Dasher1010

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Maria Caliban wrote...

Dasher1010 wrote...

Desire demons are by their nature evil. Good demons are always seen wearing armor and talking like stereotypical knights in shining armor. If a desire demon became good, it would probably look like Justice did in The Fade.


Since when does looking like an attractive woman mean one is evil?


Imagine a hot chick in golden glowing platemail speaking in a booming touch accent and tell me that that isn't also stimulating. That's a desire demon turned good, and it's damn sexy.