186 réponses à ce sujet

[Kritanakom]

We really need a sarcasm font, because I get the feeling one or more people here are actually joking. Nonetheless I think this is an interesting topic so I'll bite:

CitizenThom wrote...

Eveangaline wrote...

Most importantly...will Woman Hawke see a half naked sexy man when she looks at a desire demon? I need to know. For...research.

Bioware has been in the habit of making their games experiencable in so many ways... it would be interesting if desire demons came in a variety of forms, not just forms appealing to male lust and female lust, but also forms that appeal to mortal's lust for power, mortal's lust for renown and the like.

That would mean that if someone's greatest desire was to be renowned by all as an honorable knight, the "desire entity" would appear to them in the same way spirits of valor appear: as a stereotypical Knight in Shining Armor!

So there's no way to tell the difference between a spirit of valor and a desire entity until one of them betrays you... IF it betrays you... Why, they might as well be the same type of creature!

[Eclipse_9990]

TJPags wrote...

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

1. I'm not even going to touch this.. 

2. And that offsets the intended genocide of the Redcliff villagers, and enslavement of Connors uncle how? Oh and yeah she/it was keeping Arl Eamon alive but in a perpetual limbo with no hope of escape.. 

3. Sigh.. So what if he was "happy" she stole his mind, made him a vegetable, and is feeding on him like the parasite she is.. I wonder what your views are on the Uroboros parasite from Resident evil 4.. Sure it makes you stronger, if you don't mind a giant insect/worm growing inside you and taking over your mind.. 

4. Um there is a difference Wynne has her free will, and isn't murdering random people for the "lulz".

5. Jeez your that decided huh? If your so sure about this go ahead and believe what you want.. I'm not going to teaching someone who clearly doesn't want to be taught.. 

1. Then don't.    Do children not have free will either?

2.  Again, that was limited by Connor's mind.  The one possessing the Templar wasn't murdering wholesale, was it?  An adult with greater freedom, and more control, could easily have had a different result.  The demon even mentions this.

3.  If I want to give up lifespan - which I'm not sure is a guarantee, but I'll assume it is - for happiness and power for a short period, why is that wrong, exactly?  Because it offends your morality?  Then don't do it.

4.  Well, let's see, other than the one possessing Connor, none of the desire demons we saw killed people "for the lulz".  They fought to defend themselves.   So, yea, don't get it.

4.  Teaching me?  Teaching me what , exactly?  Your code of morality, or how to live life?  Sorry, I have my own.  So you're right, I have no desire to be "taught" anything by you.  Take your classroom, and your superiority complex, elsewhere.

Oh ho! Looks like someones getting a bit sensitive over here.. I don't know where you got "code of morality" from but  I don't know you dude. I don't care about your morals. You could be a serial killer and I wouldn't give a flying f***.
 Calm down its just a friendly debate okay? Its about give and take and not getting an aneurism over minor remarks. Maybe you should cool down and take a nice cold shower or something and come back when your ready okay buddy? Are you ready? Are you done? Good. Because me and my superiority complex want to continue this debate because its fun. 

(1)Yet you choose not to discuss any point except my response to your rather snarky line.  So what is there to discuss? 

(2)Frankly, this debate is, in fact, all about morality.  Chantry morality says demons are evil.  I'm not even so sure they make exceptions for other spirits - in fact, I'm inclined to think they don't.  Wynne is, after all, an abomination in the eyes of the Chantry, is she not, even though she is possessed by an apparently "benevolent" spirit?  After all, spirits live in the Fade, where mages can go at will - those evil mages.  They are the ones most often exposed to these beings, and can gain additional power through it.  And we don't want mages with more power, do we?

(3)Yet when we actually have interaction with these demons, they don't seem so bad to me.  They seek to explore and learn - that's not so bad.  They offer us power in exchange.  That's not so bad.

(4)The fact that some people are weak willed, and can't exert any control to balance the demons, well, that's a bad result.  Not enough to damn every fade spirit, IMO.

1. Your right about that. But I simply wanted to clear the air first.

2. But you cant really call it "Chantry Morality" its generally a bad thing when a demon wants to possess your body and or kill you. Wynne is an exception she is possessed by a spirit(I believe it was a spirit of hope/kindness whatever). But the difference with Wynnes possession is that she still retains her mind. She's enslaved to no one(except maybe her beliefs). 

3. What about rage demons? Or even pride demons they are clearly evil (atleast the rage demons anyway) What makes a desire demon so different from Hunger, Rage, Sloth, or Pride. What makes them so good compared to their demon bretheren? 

4. Its the fade spirits fault when the demon comes into your dreams and whispers promises in your ears with the full intent to screw you over. I believe its like the case with the monkeys paw.. You may get what you wish for but you will end up regretting it. 

Modifié par Eclipse_9990, 10 janvier 2011 - 01:32 .

[Maria Caliban]

I see spirits as an area where the lore is more simplistic than the reality.

The lore is a product of fear. The Chantry doesn't want mages joining with demons and becoming abominations. What happens at the Circle Tower is an excellent example of why this can be a bad thing.

Therefore, they've created a set of rules that aren't necessarily true. They might be generally true but they're definitely erring on the side of safety because the Chantry doesn't understand spirits that well.

1. Demons are interested in the mortal world while spirits are not. We see in the game that some spirits are interested in the mortal realm (Wynne and the Guardian) while there are 'demons' who aren't interested (the sloth demon in the Mage origin just wants to be left alone).

2. If you join with a spirit, you will become an abomination. Again, not necessarily true. Yes, some demons tear out the person's mind and run amuck. Others attempt to work with the human they're with. Others are beneficial.

3. Some spirits are always good while others are always bad. This is problematic. Why would a spirit of desire always be malicious? Desire isn't just lust but encompasses a wide range of wants. Yes, rage I can understand always being dangerous. A pride demon might always see itself as being above others.

I think desire spirits are 'demonic' because a large number of them are interested in the mortal world and they're probably fairly successful at convincing mortals to join with them. That, and I bet a large number of mages desire freedom or power.

They're a type of spirit that a Templar is going to butt heads with more often than say, a spirit of hope, and so they're labeled demons.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 10 janvier 2011 - 01:34 .

[crimzontearz]

someone here would love the NWoD spirit setting.......

[Maria Caliban]

Also, the Divine in Orlais thinks the futanari thing is hella creepy. That's the real reason desire spirits are persecuted.

[Eclipse_9990]

Maria Caliban wrote...
 

Some spirits are always good while others are always bad. This is problematic. Why would a spirit of desire always be malicious? Desire isn't just lust but encompasses a wide range of wants. Yes, rage I can understand always being dangerous. A pride demon might always see itself as being above others.

I think desire spirits are 'demonic' because a large number of them are interested in the mortal world and they're probably fairly successful at convincing mortals to join with them. That, and I bet a large number of mages desire freedom or power.

What if the demons are simply Benevolant spirits turned evil? It could be that desire demons are simply spirits that went down a darker path. They say spirits arent interested in the mortal realm.. But opinions can change. What if one day a particular spirit decides that he/she wants to see what the mortal world looks like, and eventually that curiousity sits and festers and turns into something malevolent. Maybe your right in that spirits and demons are one in the same.  But that each of them are devoted permanently or temporarily to their own paths.. 

[Gavinthelocust]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Also, the Divine in Orlais thinks the futanari thing is hella creepy. That's the real reason desire spirits are persecuted.

[wulfsturm]

*Walks into thread and reads the last few comments*



What's going on in here-



OH GOD!



*Runs back out*

[Maria Caliban]

A spirit is defined by the conceptual aspect it feeds from. A spirit of Valor defines itself and draws power from mortal valor. If a spirit of Valor started 'feeding' from desire, why would it become evil/darker? Valor is no more moral than desire.

[Eclipse_9990]

Maria Caliban wrote...

A spirit is defined by the conceptual aspect it feeds from. A spirit of Valor defines itself and draws power from mortal valor. If a spirit of Valor started 'feeding' from desire, why would it become evil/darker? Valor is no more moral than desire.

Where was it stated that spirits of valor draws power off of mortal valor? I dont remember anything about Valor spirits feeding off of anything or anyone. Was there a codex page or Justice conversation I missed? 

Modifié par Eclipse_9990, 10 janvier 2011 - 01:53 .

[Maria Caliban]

David and Mary have talked about why some spirits are very powerful and intelligent (Pride, desire, justice) while others are simple (sloth.) It has to do with the nature of the concept they define themselves around.

I'm not saying 'Valor hovers around a battlefield and afterward doubles his strength attribute.'

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 10 janvier 2011 - 02:05 .

[Eclipse_9990]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

A spirit is defined by the conceptual aspect it feeds from. A spirit of Valor defines itself and draws power from mortal valor. If a spirit of Valor started 'feeding' from desire, why would it become evil/darker? Valor is no more moral than desire.

Where was it stated that spirits of valor draws power off of mortal valor? I dont remember anything about Valor spirits feeding off of anything or anyone. Was there a codex page or Justice conversation I missed? 

David and Mary have talked about why some spirits are very powerful and intelligent (Pride, desire, justice) while others are simple (sloth.) It has to do with the nature of the concept they define themselves around.

I'm not saying 'Valor hovers around a battlefield and afterward doubles his strength attribute.'

I see.. Then I can see your logic here.. Guess my theory is shot. But I'm honestly curious here.. When you compare the "demons" or "spirits" or whatever you prefer to call them. What makes the desire demon specifically so different from Pride demon, or Rage Demon, or even sloth.. They are all out for your body/soul one way or another..

Modifié par Eclipse_9990, 10 janvier 2011 - 02:06 .

[Maria Caliban]

Gavinthelocust wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Also, the Divine in Orlais thinks the futanari thing is hella creepy. That's the real reason desire spirits are persecuted.

She stumbled across a rule 34rd Andreste/desire spirit image while surfing and went 'What is this? I don't even... HERESY!'

That said, desire spirits do pick obviously sexual forms and I see no reason for them to stick to purely female attributes. I always assumed the giant horns were meant to hint at other 'masculine features.' Just a theory.

[Talon_Wu]

Maria Caliban wrote...

A spirit is defined by the conceptual aspect it feeds from. A spirit of Valor defines itself and draws power from mortal valor. If a spirit of Valor started 'feeding' from desire, why would it become evil/darker? Valor is no more moral than desire.

One could argue that valor is an inherently less selfish aspect of the psyche than desire, I suppose. However, I agree that valor can be shown while executing some truly heinous actions, while desire for others' well-being can be the most noble feeling of all. The desires that the demons facilitate seem to be extremely corruptible, though. Connor wanted to save his father, maybe have a little more freedom from parental care, and ended up slaughtering a town. Is the corruption in the host, or the possessor?

.

[Gavinthelocust]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Gavinthelocust wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Also, the Divine in Orlais thinks the futanari thing is hella creepy. That's the real reason desire spirits are persecuted.

-unamused-

She stumbled across a rule 34rd Andreste/desire spirit image while surfing and went 'What is this? I don't even... HERESY!'

That said, desire spirits do pick obviously sexual forms and I see no reason for them to stick to purely female attributes. I always assumed the giant horns were meant to hint at other 'masculine features.' Just a theory.

ಠ_ಠ

Modifié par Gavinthelocust, 10 janvier 2011 - 02:11 .

[Maria Caliban]

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

I see.. Then I can see your logic here.. Guess my theory is shot. But I'm honestly curious here.. When you compare the "demons" or "spirits" or whatever you prefer to call them. What makes the desire demon specifically so different from Pride demon, or Rage Demon, or even sloth.. They are all out for your body/soul one way or another..

I think rage spirits aren't intelligent enough to function on anything but a violent level. They are nothing but a gut level desire to do damage. I don't know enough about pride demons to guess. All I know are the Baroness, Uldred, and the one during the Mage origin. I think their nature would lead them to always seek out a position of control and dominance.

Could there be neutral, useful, or even benevolent pride spirits? Indeed.

I don't think they're all out for your body/soul. I think each type of spirit has a broad set of tendencies and the Chantry sees some spirits as being more troublesome than others.

[TJPags]

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

*snip since we're very long winded*

1. Your right about that. But I simply wanted to clear the air first.

2. But you cant really call it "Chantry Morality" its generally a bad thing when a demon wants to possess your body and or kill you. Wynne is an exception she is possessed by a spirit(I believe it was a spirit of hope/kindness whatever). But the difference with Wynnes possession is that she still retains her mind. She's enslaved to no one(except maybe her beliefs). 

3. What about rage demons? Or even pride demons they are clearly evil (atleast the rage demons anyway) What makes a desire demon so different from Hunger, Rage, Sloth, or Pride. What makes them so good compared to their demon bretheren? 

4. Its the fade spirits fault when the demon comes into your dreams and whispers promises in your ears with the full intent to screw you over. I believe its like the case with the monkeys paw.. You may get what you wish for but you will end up regretting it. 

a.  Air cleared.  I'm also going to renumber the remaining points.

1.  But the demon doesn't, in fact, want to kill you.  That may be - and I'm not sure it definitely is - a side effect of the possession.  What the demon wants is to exprience the world through you- it can't do that if your dead.  Sure, it can move to another host, but that entails another bargain.  The demon actually has an incentive to keep a willing host alive.  In fact, we see Wynne's spirit/demon doing just that - keeping her alive.  We see the demon which possessed Connor keeping Eamon alive.  They clearly have the power to aid their hosts/others.  Why wouldn't they use it to keep a willing and useful host alive?

2.  Rage is not always evil.  Pride is not always evil - haven't you ever felt pride at an accomplishment?  Was that evil?  However, desire I'll say seems to be a more . . nuanced? - aspect than the others.  Desire demons also seem to be more intelligent - they, along with the Sloth, are the only ones which seem to bargain with you.  Rage and Hunger demons attack on sight.  Sloth is willing to let you stay and still not fight you.  I'd venture that this is a more dangerous demon (and I think it's considered such, in the Chantry hierarchy) because you are, essentially, stagnant while it feeds.  Thus, your body decays.  With a desire demon, you need to be active, to a degree, for it to experience something.

3.  Sure, the demon needs to - except with a mage, probably - take the first step.  But I doubt they find just any old person - they find someone who is seeking something.  Have you ever thought "I'd sell my soul to..."?  That's what they home in on.  And if they deliver it, and you're willing to go through with the exchange, well, so be it.  Free will, right?  We don't know the demon seeks to screw you over - sure, they may try to get the best deal they can, but that's not evil, it's good bargaining.

[crimzontearz]

dude...this thread is all kinda awesome and sexy

[Eclipse_9990]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

I see.. Then I can see your logic here.. Guess my theory is shot. But I'm honestly curious here.. When you compare the "demons" or "spirits" or whatever you prefer to call them. What makes the desire demon specifically so different from Pride demon, or Rage Demon, or even sloth.. They are all out for your body/soul one way or another..

I think rage spirits aren't intelligent enough to function on anything but a violent level. They are nothing but a gut level desire to do damage. I don't know enough about pride demons to guess. All I know are the Baroness, Uldred, and the one during the Mage origin. I think their nature would lead them to always seek out a position of control and dominance.

Could there be neutral, useful, or even benevolent pride spirits? Indeed.

I don't think they're all out for your body/soul. I think each type of spirit has a broad set of tendencies and the Chantry sees some spirits as being more troublesome than others.

....God damnit.. I may just be tired but I think your starting to sway me on this.. But wait.. When in dragon age at all have you seen a desire demon do anything actually good? When have they made a bargain that didn't end up screwing someone over in someway? Desire demons may seem gentle, and kind when compared with the other demons, but there goes a saying..
"You catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar" so what has a desire demon done that would make them even be considered good?

[ziloe]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Note: In this thread, I would prefer people use the term Sprit of Desire or Desire Spirit instead of the inflammatory and judgmental Desire "demon."

I was wondering if in Dragon Age 2, my PC could continue to liberate spirits of Desire though…

1. Freeing them from the Fade or any entrapment by mages
2. Reducing or eliminating the Chantry's religious persecution of spirits of Desire
3. Helping spirits of Desire engage in mutually-beneficial spirit hosting arrangements with mortals.

I understand that many players desire to 'role-play' militant, fundamentalist Chantry believers who assault spirits of Desire, and I am not suggesting this choice not be available to them, but would hope that BioWare also gives those of us who desire to role-play more tolerant and open-minded individuals a chance to interact with spirits of Desire in a positive manner.

Previously, I've been pleased with BioWare's policy of allowing diplomatic relations with spirits of Desire. For example, in Honnleath, a PC could betray their word and brutally murder a Desire spirit after learning it had been imprisoned for over a century, or they could free it and help it begin a mutually-beneficial spirit hosting relationship with a young girl. I would like to see opportunities like this in Dragon Age 2.

It has nothing to do with being a Chantry follower. Like when you meet the one in the Mage's tower. The guy isn't free, he's being taken advantage of. His life is being consumed for the others desire. It's selfish and by all rights good, until they do things without taking advantage of innocence, I will gladly destroy them.

[Maria Caliban]

Talon_Wu wrote...

One could argue that valor is an inherently less selfish aspect of the psyche than desire, I suppose. However, I agree that valor can be shown while executing some truly heinous actions, while desire for others' well-being can be the most noble feeling of all. The desires that the demons facilitate seem to be extremely corruptible, though. Connor wanted to save his father, maybe have a little more freedom from parental care, and ended up slaughtering a town. Is the corruption in the host, or the possessor?

Indeed. If we see spirits as aspects of the psyche then it's good to note that the human psyche is all over the place. There's little that's always good or always bad.

I suspect the desire spirit in that instance was rotten. What I find interesting is that it didn't just take over. It kept its word and then occasionally.. possessed him? Gave him what he wanted in a bizarre way?

[Ymladdych]

Maria Caliban wrote...

A spirit is defined by the conceptual aspect it feeds from. A spirit of Valor defines itself and draws power from mortal valor. If a spirit of Valor started 'feeding' from desire, why would it become evil/darker? Valor is no more moral than desire.

Unchecked desire can become an obsession, and even a reasonable or mild desire has the power to override a person's sense of morality.

Valor, on the other hand, is basically just bravery; heroic courage (per dictionary.com).  Mild or moderate valor doesn't usually have darker side effects, and excessive valor will probably result in somebody getting themselves killed while trying something stupid, but I don't think it has the power to make someone, say...spawn a demonic child with a witch who gives no indication of her plans.  A witch with a more powerful, pre-cog mother who seems to have *wanted* said demon-child born...

Anyway, that's why I think "desire" is a tool of the demons rather than the spirits.

[Magnus_The_Red]

The Chantry has made alot of people small-minded fools.

Demons are beings beyond the comprehension of those who do not seek understanding. We mere mortals should not dare judge them.

[johannes1212]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Also, the Divine in Orlais thinks the futanari thing is hella creepy. That's the real reason desire spirits are persecuted.

Great...Now I have a chubby, anyone gonna help me out here?

[ziloe]

[quote]TJPags wrote...

[quote]Eclipse_9990 wrote...

*snip since we're very long winded*

1. Your right about that. But I simply wanted to clear the air first.

2. But you cant really call it "Chantry Morality" its generally a bad thing when a demon wants to possess your body and or kill you. Wynne is an exception she is possessed by a spirit(I believe it was a spirit of hope/kindness whatever). But the difference with Wynnes possession is that she still retains her mind. She's enslaved to no one(except maybe her beliefs). [/quote]

It's explained that there are good spirits too and that's exactly what is possessing Wynne. It's not a desire demon which only has its self in mind and doesn't care what happens to the host, as can be shown in the Warden's Keep DLC. 

As for Connor's example, that was more along the lines of in exchange for his soul and look what was happening there, an entire village was being decimated.