Magnus_The_Red wrote...
The Chantry has made alot of people small-minded fools.
Demons are beings beyond the comprehension of those who do not seek understanding. We mere mortals should not dare judge them.
crimzontearz wrote...
dude...this thread is all kinda awesome and sexy
Magnus_The_Red wrote...
There is so much we could learn from Demons. Beings who have existed long before us mortals.
Modifié par Gavinthelocust, 10 janvier 2011 - 02:44 .
Maria Caliban wrote...
Indeed. If we see spirits as aspects of the psyche then it's good to note that the human psyche is all over the place. There's little that's always good or always bad.
I suspect the desire spirit in that instance was rotten. What I find interesting is that it didn't just take over. It kept its word and then occasionally.. possessed him? Gave him what he wanted in a bizarre way?
TJPags wrote...
a. Air cleared. I'm also going to renumber the remaining points.
1. But the demon doesn't, in fact, want to kill you. That may be - and I'm not sure it definitely is - a side effect of the possession. What the demon wants is to exprience the world through you- it can't do that if your dead. Sure, it can move to another host, but that entails another bargain. The demon actually has an incentive to keep a willing host alive. In fact, we see Wynne's spirit/demon doing just that - keeping her alive. We see the demon which possessed Connor keeping Eamon alive. They clearly have the power to aid their hosts/others. Why wouldn't they use it to keep a willing and useful host alive?
2. Rage is not always evil. Pride is not always evil - haven't you ever felt pride at an accomplishment? Was that evil? However, desire I'll say seems to be a more . . nuanced? - aspect than the others. Desire demons also seem to be more intelligent - they, along with the Sloth, are the only ones which seem to bargain with you. Rage and Hunger demons attack on sight. Sloth is willing to let you stay and still not fight you. I'd venture that this is a more dangerous demon (and I think it's considered such, in the Chantry hierarchy) because you are, essentially, stagnant while it feeds. Thus, your body decays. With a desire demon, you need to be active, to a degree, for it to experience something.
3. Sure, the demon needs to - except with a mage, probably - take the first step. But I doubt they find just any old person - they find someone who is seeking something. Have you ever thought "I'd sell my soul to..."? That's what they home in on. And if they deliver it, and you're willing to go through with the exchange, well, so be it. Free will, right? We don't know the demon seeks to screw you over - sure, they may try to get the best deal they can, but that's not evil, it's good bargaining.
Modifié par Eclipse_9990, 10 janvier 2011 - 03:41 .
But why does a spirit in the Fade (Not a demon) refer to them explicity as demons and not other spirits?Maria Caliban wrote...
I think desire spirits are 'demonic' because a large number of them are interested in the mortal world and they're probably fairly successful at convincing mortals to join with them. That, and I bet a large number of mages desire freedom or power.
Eclipse_9990 wrote...
TJPags wrote...
a. Air cleared. I'm also going to renumber the remaining points.
1. But the demon doesn't, in fact, want to kill you. That may be - and I'm not sure it definitely is - a side effect of the possession. What the demon wants is to exprience the world through you- it can't do that if your dead. Sure, it can move to another host, but that entails another bargain. The demon actually has an incentive to keep a willing host alive. In fact, we see Wynne's spirit/demon doing just that - keeping her alive. We see the demon which possessed Connor keeping Eamon alive. They clearly have the power to aid their hosts/others. Why wouldn't they use it to keep a willing and useful host alive?
2. Rage is not always evil. Pride is not always evil - haven't you ever felt pride at an accomplishment? Was that evil? However, desire I'll say seems to be a more . . nuanced? - aspect than the others. Desire demons also seem to be more intelligent - they, along with the Sloth, are the only ones which seem to bargain with you. Rage and Hunger demons attack on sight. Sloth is willing to let you stay and still not fight you. I'd venture that this is a more dangerous demon (and I think it's considered such, in the Chantry hierarchy) because you are, essentially, stagnant while it feeds. Thus, your body decays. With a desire demon, you need to be active, to a degree, for it to experience something.
3. Sure, the demon needs to - except with a mage, probably - take the first step. But I doubt they find just any old person - they find someone who is seeking something. Have you ever thought "I'd sell my soul to..."? That's what they home in on. And if they deliver it, and you're willing to go through with the exchange, well, so be it. Free will, right? We don't know the demon seeks to screw you over - sure, they may try to get the best deal they can, but that's not evil, it's good bargaining.
1. So the demon is simply a parasite? It leeches off of you and slowly debilitates you until your useless, then it moves on to another mortal? In a way parasites aren't as bad as demons. Actual parasites leech off of animals bodies because its a necessity and they need to survive.. Demons don't possess people because they need to survive they only do it to fulfill their own desires..
Is losing your life or will really worth satisfying a demons curiosity?
Besides its not like when you make a deal with them it only affects you.. It affects everyone around you. example.. Connor(hate to bring that up again but its the best example)
Also a demon can experience the world through your dead body..
Examples:
a. The demon in Commander Dryden, Dryden is clearly dead but the demon still seems to be up and running..
b. Pretty much every undead you fight in the game..
c. Justice in that dead dude...(Though he's not a demon, but the same rules still apply).
2. Heh.. I wasn't talking about the specific emotions, I was talking about the demons themselves. Nice try though..
I do get what you mean though those emotions can have good consequences I don't think the emotions that those demons represent are inherently evil. But I believe the demons themselves are.
3. But the thing is with these deals you make is you don't really get what you want.. Like I said in a earlier post its like the monkeys paw scenario.. When the old mother wished her son back to life she got her wish.. But the thing is her son died in a thresher or factory accident or whatever.. So his body was pretty messed up... So yeah she got her son back, but in pretty much the worst way possible ever..
Those undead are mainly hunger demons, if I remember right. Perhaps they are simply a lower form of spirit, less intelligent? While demons can possess a dead body - or a tree, see the wild Sylvans - I'd think they prefer a living one - more possibilities.
I don't think the demons - at least, the desire demons, our subject here - are evil. They are curious, and perhaps naive. But when we actually interact with them, they do not seem malevolent to me.
Soul Cool wrote...
But why does a spirit in the Fade (Not a demon) refer to them explicity as demons and not other spirits?Maria Caliban wrote...
I think desire spirits are 'demonic' because a large number of them are interested in the mortal world and they're probably fairly successful at convincing mortals to join with them. That, and I bet a large number of mages desire freedom or power.
He also says that demons, specifically, prey upon humans.
Here's the quote:
"I am no demon, preying upon helpless mortals to steal their essence."
Where is this indicated?TJPags wrote...
Spirits learn from the people they observe, no?
Yes, and?TJPags wrote...
And we call them demons.
Soul Cool wrote...
Where is this indicated?TJPags wrote...
Spirits learn from the people they observe, no?Yes, and?TJPags wrote...
And we call them demons.
Soul Cool wrote...
Where is this indicated?TJPags wrote...
Spirits learn from the people they observe, no?Yes, and?TJPags wrote...
And we call them demons.
Guest_----9-----_*
Modifié par ----9-----, 10 janvier 2011 - 03:20 .
Why would they use our term? (How, in fact, do you even know humans invented it and that we didn't take it from spirits themselves?) Why would the accomodate us in any way?TJPags wrote...
And . . .if true, then they would use our term, wouldn't they?
Living in different planes of existence would make it somewhat hard to be aware of the existence of something else in the other plane.crimzontearz wrote...
justice specifies he knew nothin of humankind until he observed them
Modifié par DragonOfWhiteThunder, 10 janvier 2011 - 03:24 .
Soul Cool wrote...
Why would they use our term? (How, in fact, do you even know humans invented it and that we didn't take it from spirits themselves?) Why would the accomodate us in any way?TJPags wrote...
And . . .if true, then they would use our term, wouldn't they?
Many, many assumptions there.Living in different planes of existence would make it somewhat hard to be aware of the existence of something else in the other plane.crimzontearz wrote...
justice specifies he knew nothin of humankind until he observed them
Soul Cool wrote...
Why would they use our term? (How, in fact, do you even know humans invented it and that we didn't take it from spirits themselves?) Why would the accomodate us in any way?TJPags wrote...
And . . .if true, then they would use our term, wouldn't they?
Many, many assumptions there.Living in different planes of existence would make it somewhat hard to be aware of the existence of something else in the other plane.crimzontearz wrote...
justice specifies he knew nothin of humankind until he observed them
Guest_distinguetraces_*
Soul Cool wrote...
But why does a spirit in the Fade (Not a demon) refer to them explicity as demons and not other spirits?
He also says that demons, specifically, prey upon humans.
Here's the quote:
"I am no demon, preying upon helpless mortals to steal their essence."
TJPags wrote...
1. Do we know for sure it leeches off you, and causes death? Or is this just a Chantry-ism? I think this is an important point. As I said, Wynne's spirit keeps her alive. Connors demon keeps Eamon alive. Sure, as in your monkey paw example, it doesn't heal him per se, but that may be because Connor didn't ask for that - "don't let daddy die", for example, rather than "make daddy better". A child's mistake, perhaps.
And a person would let them possess them to achieve THEIR desires. Again, monkey paw - perhaps the Templar said "I want to experience having a wife, and a family" instead of "I want to HAVE a wife...". Bad deals are not neceesarily the demons fault. And while Connor's demon did horrible things, were they perhaps not in furtherance of some silly, childish thing he said, rather than from it's own "malice"?
a) And what did that demon want? To get out - to see, to know. This is what they want, to experience things. Given that the have the ability to either animate dead flesh (but they do seem to know it's limitations) or keep people alive, why would they willingly kill early a willing host? Seems silly.
c) Justice possesses and animates the dead body of Kristoff - and continues to do so, even though it horrifies Kristoff's wife. Justice run amok, maybe?
2) Can't blame me for trying.
3) If you choose your request poorly, you get a poor result. I offer to buy you something - you ask for a cadilac. I give you a 20 year old, rusting machine with a 300,000 miles on the engine, bald tires, bad brakes, etc. Is that my fault, or yours?
Sloth demons, and Rage demons possess dead bodies all the time, and sloths are pretty high up on the food chain yet they are perfectly fine with necro possession..
Well, he's accomplished something I've never managed to do (understand humans), but I'm not sure why this would indicate that spirits as a whole have taken to using human terms for what we speak of. Do we even speak any specific language in the Fade?crimzontearz wrote...
nope, he specifies he knew about humans..or better he hints at it (also humans travel the fade while dreaming and may see spirits there) but only once in contact with them and observing them he was able to understand them
TJPags wrote...
Taking point 2, they are aware of us. How?
Well, because we appear in the Fade. They have the ability to observe
us, and they do. We know this to be true.
I think I can see where you're coming from with that, but I'm still don't buy the 'They accomodate us because X' unless it's 'To make the game less complex'.TJPags wrote...
Now
point one - why wouldn't they use our term? Justice himself basically
says he personifies the trait we call Justice - and so that's the name
he uses. So why wouldn't all such spirits use our terms for such
things?
As to why they are our terms - chicken and egg,
perhaps. Or, perhaps, since see point one - Justice refers to is as the
trait we call Justice. Indicating it's our term.
Yes, an assumption, but it seems a logical one, from what we know.
Eclipse_9990 wrote...
TJPags wrote...
1. Do we know for sure it leeches off you, and causes death? Or is this just a Chantry-ism? I think this is an important point. As I said, Wynne's spirit keeps her alive. Connors demon keeps Eamon alive. Sure, as in your monkey paw example, it doesn't heal him per se, but that may be because Connor didn't ask for that - "don't let daddy die", for example, rather than "make daddy better". A child's mistake, perhaps.
And a person would let them possess them to achieve THEIR desires. Again, monkey paw - perhaps the Templar said "I want to experience having a wife, and a family" instead of "I want to HAVE a wife...". Bad deals are not neceesarily the demons fault. And while Connor's demon did horrible things, were they perhaps not in furtherance of some silly, childish thing he said, rather than from it's own "malice"?
a) And what did that demon want? To get out - to see, to know. This is what they want, to experience things. Given that the have the ability to either animate dead flesh (but they do seem to know it's limitations) or keep people alive, why would they willingly kill early a willing host? Seems silly.
c) Justice possesses and animates the dead body of Kristoff - and continues to do so, even though it horrifies Kristoff's wife. Justice run amok, maybe?
2) Can't blame me for trying.
3) If you choose your request poorly, you get a poor result. I offer to buy you something - you ask for a cadilac. I give you a 20 year old, rusting machine with a 300,000 miles on the engine, bald tires, bad brakes, etc. Is that my fault, or yours?
1. About the Conner thing I get where your coming from and you do have a point there the way Eamon was set up could have easily been prevented with a reworded request.. But if the demon just wants the experience the world why terrorize Isold? Why call other demons to possess the other people in the castle? Why turn the Arl's brother(damn it I keep forgetting his name) into her personal jester? And finally why try to kill everyone in Red Cliff?
(a) "And what did the demon want? To get out - to see, to know." And you forgot to feed, as "this one" so elegantly said.
(
2. I can see the logic in this.. Its like they do evil but they don't really understand nor care about the consequences of their actions. Its how H.P Lovecraft described the elder gods as uncaring, and ignorant entities that exist for their own purpose and are pretty much ignorant of all the suffering they cause.. But even though they don't realize the trouble their causing does not mean we have to put up with them..
3. I see no fault in this argument so I'm not even going to argue.
Well this is last comment for a while, I'm going to bed.. Have a good one...
sloth demons are powerful, but fully formed and as intelligent as desire demons? Sloth is basically laziness - which doesn't take a lot of depth. Desire comes in all forms. So, perhaps sloth demons are the big dumb brutes of the demon world? But yes, ignorant or naive evil, if you will. And we may not need to put up with it, but we may choose to, no?
DragonOfWhiteThunder wrote...
I don't know the whole story behind Justice since I haven't played Awakening yet, but I'd say it's a safe bet that he's dying while trying to sustain Kristoff's body.
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