186 réponses à ce sujet

[AngelicMachinery]

I love this thread.

[TJPags]

Soul Cool wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...
nope, he specifies he knew about humans..or better he hints at it (also humans travel the fade while dreaming and may see spirits there) but only once in contact with them and observing them he was able to understand them

Well, he's accomplished something I've never managed to do (understand humans), but I'm not sure why this would indicate that spirits as a whole have taken to using human terms for what we speak of. Do we even speak any specific language in the Fade?

TJPags wrote...
Taking point 2, they are aware of us.  How? 
Well, because we appear in the Fade.  They have the ability to observe
us, and they do.  We know this to be true.

Right.

TJPags wrote...
Now
point one - why wouldn't they use our term?  Justice himself basically
says he personifies the trait we call Justice - and so that's the name
he uses.  So why wouldn't all such spirits use our terms for such
things?

As to why they are our terms - chicken and egg,
perhaps.  Or, perhaps, since see point one - Justice refers to is as the
trait we call Justice.  Indicating it's our term.

Yes, an assumption, but it seems a logical one, from what we know.

I think I can see where you're coming from with that, but I'm still don't buy the 'They accomodate us because X' unless it's 'To make the game less complex'.

Well, now I never said the explanation was a good one.    Or perhaps I'm not wording it right.

But that seems to be how it works, based on what we know, IMO.  The spirits are somewhat formless entities, until they run into us, and latch onto some aspect they like.

Then again, that last sentence may have been lifted from some book I've read recently - it seems very familiar, as if I heard it somewhere . . .

In any event, I'm willing to accept a different explanation, if we can find one that makes sense.

[crimzontearz]

Soul Cool wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...
nope, he specifies he knew about humans..or better he hints at it (also humans travel the fade while dreaming and may see spirits there) but only once in contact with them and observing them he was able to understand them

Well, he's accomplished something I've never managed to do (understand humans), but I'm not sure why this would indicate that spirits as a whole have taken to using human terms for what we speak of. Do we even speak any specific language in the Fade?

the Disciple's speech patterns do not change in the fade for instance so I'd say yes, we speak a specific language in  the fade. 

in any event I'm merely saying that if spirits and demons decide they want to learn about humans they have to observe them. Thenh again I'd go out on a limb and say that they are nearly all knowing when it comes to their nature so a Desire spirit would know the way humans desire something and how to manipulate them through it without having to observe humans to learn such.

[Ploppy]

It's "Desire Demon"

[Face of Evil]

Oh, this thread is too rich.



I'll just stick to slaughtering demons, thank you.

[Xerxes52]

Sure, but if we have the options to free Desire "spirits", we should also have the choice to enslave one (and maybe make it a party member) and use its powers.

[DragonOfWhiteThunder]

Face of Evil wrote...

Oh, this thread is too rich.

I'll just stick to slaughtering demons, thank you.

I am amused by the name/post combination here.

[Maria Caliban]

I thought it was quite apt...

If we ever see a 'spirit of evil,' I'll have no problem calling it a demon.

[Atakuma]

Why must we put labels on our otherworldly creatures? Just let them be themselves.

[Demx]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I thought it was quite apt...

If we ever see a 'spirit of evil,' I'll have no problem calling it a demon.

What is consider evil, depends on the society that the person was raised in. In other words not everyone will completely agree that said beings are evil. Calling it a spirit can also be subjective.

[Maria Caliban]

Atakuma wrote...

Why must we put labels on our otherworldly creatures? Just let them be themselves.

To some extent, we can't let them be themselves as our very existence alters them.

That said, they're spirits because they lack native corporeality and they seem to pick what concept they reflect. A spirit of desire defines itself as a spirit of desire.

Siradix wrote...

What is consider evil, depends on the society that the person was raised in. In other words not everyone will completely agree that said beings are evil. Calling it a spirit can also be subjective.

Not everyone has to agree with what's evil. The mere concept of evil is as much a force as gravity when you're talking about a creature of the Fade.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 10 janvier 2011 - 05:01 .

[In Exile]

Maria Caliban wrote...

In Rivain, wise women enter into mutually beneficial spirit hosting arrangements (MBSHA) on a frequent basis without a problem.

The issue is the lack of a regulatory body. Perhaps some kind of proper contractual agreement, outlining the terms of conditions for soul exchange.

Can't just have people bartering souls left and right.

[Maria Caliban]

If we could find a spirit of law...

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 10 janvier 2011 - 05:04 .

[In Exile]

Maria Caliban wrote...

If we could find a spirit of law...

I had hoped justice would be such a spirit. But yet, instead of jurisprudence or Antivan real estate law, we had him persecute an unfortunate woman merely deciding to relocate her fiefdom somehwere incorporeal.

[bsbcaer]

Im sure that you could probably find something in the case law...maybe something in Faust v. Mephistopheles?

[Atakuma]

Desire is too vague a name, they might as well be genies.

[Maria Caliban]

Atakuma wrote...

Desire is too vague a name, they might as well be genies.

It is very broad compared to hunger, sloth, rage, and pride.

I assume that originally they were lust demons but their role got expanded when they needed to figure out what demon would possess Connor.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 10 janvier 2011 - 05:14 .

[Talon_Wu]

"Temper tantrum demon" didn't have the right ring.

[Demx]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Siradix wrote...

What is consider evil, depends on the society that the person was raised in. In other words not everyone will completely agree that said beings are evil. Calling it a spirit can also be subjective.

Not everyone has to agree with what's evil. The mere concept of evil is as much a force as gravity when you're talking about a creature of the Fade.

Since not everyone has to agree with what is evil. Then you should have no qualms with the being's former title: desire demon. Or the way one religious power views creatures from the Fade.

[Atakuma]

Modifié par Atakuma, 10 janvier 2011 - 05:18 .

[elfdwarf]

let remember what Connor desire spirit/demon planing, conquering world!

let remember what uldred pride spirit/demon planning conquering world !

is it any different from archdemon, no it's same plan

like any know you have to kill archdemon to end blight

dislike demon sorry about that demon/wicked spirit lover but i would kill demon then let join as companion.

[Maria Caliban]

Siradix wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Siradix wrote...

What is consider evil, depends on the society that the person was raised in. In other words not everyone will completely agree that said beings are evil. Calling it a spirit can also be subjective.

Not everyone has to agree with what's evil. The mere concept of evil is as much a force as gravity when you're talking about a creature of the Fade.

Since not everyone has to agree with what is evil. Then you should have no qualms with the being's former title: desire demon.

You're saying that because you personally view desire as evil, a spirit of desire is no different than a spirit of evil? And because you view it as evil, I should have 'no qualms' with calling it a desire demon?

You know, at least other people attempted to make a coherent argument.

[Altima Darkspells]

If we can kill it, and it gives experience and/or loot, it's going to be killed.



It has nothing to do with race or...planar relationships. We're equal opportunist omnicidal maniacs!

[Dellingr]

Many of the fade entities we've come across have been evil, but I'd agree that they're all essentially the same kind of entity and that the labels "demon" and "spirit" are arbitrarily applied based on their behaviour by the chantry

If an adult mortal in full possession of their faculties wishes to enter relationships with fade entities, which I might add don't seem to be limited to possession-or-nothing, then that is their business. Though should they/their fade-originating partner then attempt to harm others, my warden or Hawke would act to prevent such actions.

There's an issue of defining "possession"-I define it by control while sharing the host's body
Connor was clearly possessed
Kitty wanted to possess Amalia
The templar wasn't possessed, I don't think, the entity just had him ensorcelled
Justice is possessing Kristoff's body but aside from the fact that there's a dead body walking around, there's no cause for anyone to be worried or alarmed, Justice isn't overriding Kristoff's will, there's nothing there anymore to override. Distressing as the situation may be for the widow, Justice is engaging in possession but certainly isn't a demon IMO
Wynne's a grey area, the entity's clearly benevolent and isn't controlling her, but it is sharing her body, I don't believe Wynne's possessed by it because she's in control of her own actions


I'd be interested to see if there are relationships where the entity possesses the host  but the two share control for mutual benefit (like the tok'ra from stargate), that'd be the ultimate example of what Maria's talking about as far as I can tell. As well as being awesome

Maria Caliban wrote...

I see spirits as an area where the lore is more simplistic than the reality.

The
lore is a product of fear. The Chantry doesn't want mages joining with
demons and becoming abominations. What happens at the Circle Tower is an
excellent example of why this can be a bad thing.

Therefore,
they've created a set of rules that aren't necessarily true. They might
be generally true but they're definitely erring on the side of safety
because the Chantry doesn't understand spirits that well...

[smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/ninja.png[/smilie]'d with expressing these things

Kritanakom wrote...

So there's no way to tell the
difference between a spirit of valor and a desire entity until one of
them betrays you... IF it betrays you... Why, they might as well be the
same type of creature!

'tis a good point

Talon_Wu wrote...

....
The epilogue stated that
Justice's fate is unknown, he may have returned to the fade or just
dissipated. Personally, I wonder how he got stuck in Kristoff's body, as
demons seem to have no trouble jumping from body to body, or body to
fade. Connor was being controlled from the fade, but the Tower templar
was being influenced from close range.

I would
imagine the getting stuck thing has something to do with it being the
baroness who dragged everything in sight back to the physical world,
rather than Justice choosing to enter Kristoff's body. It didn't get into the body by its own device, so it's not sure how to get out? dunno actually

[The Elder King]

Siradix wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

I thought it was quite apt...

If we ever see a 'spirit of evil,' I'll have no problem calling it a demon.

What is consider evil, depends on the society that the person was raised in. In other words not everyone will completely agree that said beings are evil. Calling it a spirit can also be subjective.

It's not subjective, because it is what they are.The Fade is populated by spirits. We call "demon" the ones who are interested in mortals and enter in contact with them (the most one the ones who enter in contact with them, we know some benign spirits thant enter in mortal affais). They're not "evil" in their nature. most of the "demons" we encounter in DAO are probably acting evil, but I don't think all the "demons" are evil. And If we will encounter other begnin spirits, I'll probably find them too intransigent, as I find Justice.