186 réponses à ce sujet

[Ortaya Alevli]

Pardon me for being the Captain Obvious here, but I just woke up and am still kind of groggy, waiting for the tea to get ready on the stove. Judging from Maria Caliban's previous posts that I've come across so far in other threads, I'm guessing this thread is rather tongue-in-cheek in nature and she's on to something. I've just read the first page, mind you.

Not sure about the exact mechanics of a desire demon-mortal relationship, as we're yet to have a chance to see how it ends, but so far it sounds like a Matrix situation where the mortal lives a happy illusion while fueling the demon and is bound to be consumed and thrown aside in the end. As long as it is not forced upon the mortal in question, I see no reason to object. I also have no problem with desire demons setting aside all this possession business and crossing the Veil en masse, settling somewhere, going about their lives and whatnot. Goodwill is the keyword here. I also doubt if, in the current state of affairs, desire demons are *aware* that they're committing a crime by mortal standards by invading people's minds. Maybe they could listen to reason, who knows? Beside writers, I mean.

Anyways, tea is ready. I'll see if Maria is actually serious or just making fun of trolls or something after shaking it off. Carry on.

[Silver Direwolf]

Best thread ever!



While I'll admit that my Warden was totally for killing any demon he saw, after reading this, Hawke'll probably be far more tolerant and even a pioneer in the Desire Spirit Liberation movement

[ziloe]

[quote]ziloe wrote...

[quote]TJPags wrote...

[quote]Eclipse_9990 wrote...

*snip since we're very long winded*

1. Your right about that. But I simply wanted to clear the air first.

2. But you cant really call it "Chantry Morality" its generally a bad thing when a demon wants to possess your body and or kill you. Wynne is an exception she is possessed by a spirit(I believe it was a spirit of hope/kindness whatever). But the difference with Wynnes possession is that she still retains her mind. She's enslaved to no one(except maybe her beliefs). [/quote]

It's explained that there are good spirits too and that's exactly what is possessing Wynne. It's not a desire demon which only has its self in mind and doesn't care what happens to the host, as can be shown in the Warden's Keep DLC. 

As for Connor's example, that was more along the lines of in exchange for his soul and look what was happening there, an entire village was being decimated. 
[/quote]

[lostspline]

I think Maria's right. 

"Demon" is just a label given to the malicious or envious spirits.  So, there are spirits of Justice, Valor, Sloth, Desire, Rage, etc...

They are all just spirits, with their own personal goals, but the Chantry opposes the spirits that prey on human vices and so calls them "Demons".

I assume that virtuous spirits use the term "demon" because they learned it from humans.  As Justice says:

So much of the Fade is created by spirits desperate to emulate your kind.

[Trintrin86]

Ortaya Alevli wrote...

Pardon me for being the Captain Obvious here, but I just woke up and am still kind of groggy, waiting for the tea to get ready on the stove. Judging from Maria Caliban's previous posts that I've come across so far in other threads, I'm guessing this thread is rather tongue-in-cheek in nature and she's on to something. I've just read the first page, mind you.
Not sure about the exact mechanics of a desire demon-mortal relationship, as we're yet to have a chance to see how it ends, but so far it sounds like a Matrix situation where the mortal lives a happy illusion while fueling the demon and is bound to be consumed and thrown aside in the end. As long as it is not forced upon the mortal in question, I see no reason to object. I also have no problem with desire demons setting aside all this possession business and crossing the Veil en masse, settling somewhere, going about their lives and whatnot. Goodwill is the keyword here. I also doubt if, in the current state of affairs, desire demons are *aware* that they're committing a crime by mortal standards by invading people's minds. Maybe they could listen to reason, who knows? Beside writers, I mean.
Anyways, tea is ready. I'll see if Maria is actually serious or just making fun of trolls or something after shaking it off. Carry on.

I gotta go with this.

Assuming this a serious discussion...

From the evidence presented in DA:O, the Desire relationship *is* forced upon the mortal in question, robbing them of their free will. The Templar may desire a family, but even if at some point he was forced into the life a Templar, he could *choose* to do differently, he would just have to deal with the fallout. The little girl in Honneleth flips out when she realizes "Kitty" wants to get inside her head. Sophia Dryden is a decaying husk, hollowed out by her desire to rule. Conner got his desire when the entity kept the Arl alive, but then immediate went on the rampage with little provecation (it could have easily hidden inside Conner indefinately). The only seemingly beneficial relationship we have seen is the Wade/Herren relationship, and that's only if we a) assume the Darkspawn Chronicles DLC to be accurate and assume the Herren is a willing host.

Personally, I like the idea of Desire "demons." Dealing with them in DA:O can be rather Faustian and I hope that continues to be the case. To make them more benevolent spirits such as Justice  or  the Faith spirit that inhabits Wynne deminishes their impact. Working with them *should* be an evil choice, your character's justification for it that makes the choice interesting.

[Drizzt ORierdan]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Note: In this thread, I would prefer people use the term Sprit of Desire or Desire Spirit instead of the inflammatory and judgmental Desire "demon."

I was wondering if in Dragon Age 2, my PC could continue to liberate spirits of Desire though…

1. Freeing them from the Fade or any entrapment by mages
2. Reducing or eliminating the Chantry's religious persecution of spirits of Desire
3. Helping spirits of Desire engage in mutually-beneficial spirit hosting arrangements with mortals.

I understand that many players desire to 'role-play' militant, fundamentalist Chantry believers who assault spirits of Desire, and I am not suggesting this choice not be available to them, but would hope that BioWare also gives those of us who desire to role-play more tolerant and open-minded individuals a chance to interact with spirits of Desire in a positive manner.

Previously, I've been pleased with BioWare's policy of allowing diplomatic relations with spirits of Desire. For example, in Honnleath, a PC could betray their word and brutally murder a Desire spirit after learning it had been imprisoned for over a century, or they could free it and help it begin a mutually-beneficial spirit hosting relationship with a young girl. I would like to see opportunities like this in Dragon Age 2.

I agree with Trintrin86 here.
Leaving all the ethic discussion aside, wouldn't your goal ultimately strip the desire demons from everything that is appealing about them? I mean, a misterious, dark, strange being, involved in forbidden practices...  I wouldnt want to enter a common town and see the local desire demon, just beside the blacksmith and the Groceries Store...

I see your intent as sort of wanting to sanitaze them, turn them respectable, as a modern witch (wicka) who now is selling medicinal herbs in a shopping mall...

Modifié par Drizzt ORierdan, 10 janvier 2011 - 04:35 .

[Arcadionn]

I do hope Hawke has a chance to do some dealing with them; they usually have fun offers and act much more civil than other demons/spirits. They live in a shade of blackening gray but my Warden is a blood mage whom hates the chantry for their control/persecution. I would also support potential quest chains where you have to chose between helping them against x group (say the chantry) or help said group with their "removal" of the desire demons/spirits.

[FreezaSama]

Maria Caliban wrote...

You're saying that because you personally view desire as evil, a spirit of desire is no different than a spirit of evil? And because you view it as evil, I should have 'no qualms' with calling it a desire demon?

You know, at least other people attempted to make a coherent argument.

One could even argue that desire is a lesser evil, if we're going to consider it evil at all. It can be a great motivator. Better to take action because of desire than fall victim to sloth. Desire Demons just... help people along is all.

[ObserverStatus]

I don't see why everyone thinks desire demons are evil because the one who possessed Connor raised an army of zombies and massacred the people of Redcliffe. She's just one desire demon, you can't judge them all by her. If the only human you ever met was Ted Bundy, would you think that all humans are evil?

[marshalleck]

This thread is awesome.

[SteveGarbage]

Are Desire Demons spirits or demons? That, I suppose, depends on your own personal opinion I suppose. And I will say, BioWare did an excellent job with some of the Desire Demons you run across - most notably the one in the Circle Tower that has bewitched a templar.

Other demons are easier to label as demons because they just kind of go brute force forward at it. It's pretty easy to tell a Rage Demon means you harm - he's all fiery and yelling and whatnot. Desire demons, however, are manipulators. They're smarter - they're going to make you a good offer to let them loose on the world.

But, in the end, a Desire Demon - as you can note in the Circle Tower - is stripping a person of their free will. The host is as enslaved to the demon as the demon is to the host. We see this firsthand.

Although I'm perfectly fine with the option being very much a part of the game - it offers interesting choices for the player to make - I'd also enjoy seeing the consequences. Whether the demon lives in the mortal world pretty peaceably and happily or whether it goes rogue and starts all kinds of mayhem - either is good.

[FreezaSama]

SteveGarbage wrote...

But, in the end, a Desire Demon - as you can note in the Circle Tower - is stripping a person of their free will. The host is as enslaved to the demon as the demon is to the host. We see this firsthand.

Look at it this way. The man you're talking about had a pretty crappy life as it was. The Desire Demon on the other hand, needed sustenance. So in exchange for that, she offered him happiness he wouldn't otherwise have. Even if it isn't "real" in the strictest sense of the word, it's what he perceived. And is perception not reality? It looked to me like a mutually beneficial relationship. Therefore symbiotic, and not parasitic as some people are alluding to.

[The Night Haunter]

bobobo878 wrote...

I don't see why everyone thinks desire demons are evil because the one who possessed Connor raised an army of zombies and massacred the people of Redcliffe. She's just one desire demon, you can't judge them all by her. If the only human you ever met was Ted Bundy, would you think that all humans are evil?

See the difference between humans and spirits is free will. (It says that in a codex somewhere). So unlike humans, All desire demons will act the exact same way given the exact same conditions. So... They are all evil/parasitic given the chance.

Note: the free will thing was in some codex but it said the fade and its spirits where the Makers first creation, and humans the second. The difference between the two was free will and the ability to adapt/evolve (socially).

[Reaverwind]

Free Desire Spirits? They're called demons for a very good reason: their horrible fashion sense. Freeing them would result in the destruction of civilization as we know it, as Desire Demons influence the evolution of pink hairdos, pasties and other truly tasteless garb.

Modifié par Reaverwind, 19 janvier 2011 - 10:05 .

[ObserverStatus]

ghostmessiah202 wrote...

bobobo878 wrote...

I don't see why everyone thinks desire demons are evil because the one who possessed Connor raised an army of zombies and massacred the people of Redcliffe. She's just one desire demon, you can't judge them all by her. If the only human you ever met was Ted Bundy, would you think that all humans are evil?

See the difference between humans and spirits is free will. (It says that in a codex somewhere). So unlike humans, All desire demons will act the exact same way given the exact same conditions. So... They are all evil/parasitic given the chance.

Note: the free will thing was in some codex but it said the fade and its spirits where the Makers first creation, and humans the second. The difference between the two was free will and the ability to adapt/evolve (socially).

I'm guessing that you're referring to "The Maker's First Children, By Bader, Senior Enchanter of Ostwick, 8:12 Blessed" but, you can't believe everything you read.

[The Bard From Hell]

I want to set them free in the world, and them bashing their ugly faces in the floor. I would love the option to trick an Desire Demon into a trap and then kill/make a deal without any risk of losing my soul/making it my b****. Like in Supernatural, with the Devil's Trap (tough it is getting overused these seasons).

And like I said in some other tread, I want a demon-possessed wickerman fight.

Another idea I found interesting about Desire Demons is have tricking Hawke in the form of say, a cute innocent little girl, like those elven ghosts from the Brecilian Ruins and the Orphanage in Origins, but giving us quests. And if they betray us, we can kill them, or try to make a pact. I would this option.

[Eclipse_9990]

I really hate getting back into this thread but.. I have to ask this.

What has a Desire Demon actually done to make people think they're "misunderstood".. I mean besides being hot.

[Trintrin86]

FreezaSama wrote...

SteveGarbage wrote...

But, in the end, a Desire Demon - as you can note in the Circle Tower - is stripping a person of their free will. The host is as enslaved to the demon as the demon is to the host. We see this firsthand.

Look at it this way. The man you're talking about had a pretty crappy life as it was. The Desire Demon on the other hand, needed sustenance. So in exchange for that, she offered him happiness he wouldn't otherwise have. Even if it isn't "real" in the strictest sense of the word, it's what he perceived. And is perception not reality? It looked to me like a mutually beneficial relationship. Therefore symbiotic, and not parasitic as some people are alluding to.

1. A symbotic relationship can be a parasitic relationship, the terms are not mutually exclusive.

2. We don't know if the man was really unhappy in his life as a Templar. All we know is that part of him wished he could have a wife and family and the Desire entity was able to exploit that.

To put in perspective, let's use a hypothetical: At one point in your life you have a choice, you can study accounting ot you can study theater. You decide to go the "safe" route and study accounting. So you go on with your life, make good money, have a family, and you're genuinely happy in your life, but deep down you can't help but feel you would have been really great in theater.

Now you run into an entity who can sense this desire within you and has the ability to create a "wish fullfillment" scenario where you are the biggest star on b'way and forces it upon you. Yeah, in a way, you're getting something you always wanted, but it's not something you earned. And it's effectively negated every choice you've ever made in your life. It's effectivly made *you* not matter.

To me, the stripping of a person's free will is the *ultimate* evil, and I think of nothing more horrifying. Up until that moment in that Templar's life, he could have chosen to run away from the Order and tried to have a family, Yes, there would have been consequences, but it would have been *his* choice to make. He can no longer say "Yes I wish I could have a family, but I have responsibilities beyond my wants, and I *choose* to this life instead."

I said this before, I love Desire Demons. They (and pride demons) have a lot of potential to be an evil far more sophisticated than "GRWAARRR I SET YOU ON FIRES!" And the idea of a creature that can look inside you and tempt you, ask you to be wholly selfish and give into *want,* without further regard to the consequenses, is totally awesome. And I love the fact that you can make Faustian deals with them. But part of making a Faustian deal is knowing that what you're doing is morally questionable at best, downright evil at worst.

[Face of Evil]

Eclipse_9990 wrote...

What has a Desire Demon actually done to make people think they're "misunderstood".. I mean besides being hot.

That's pretty much it, plus a general bias against the Chantry. See Draco in Leather Pants.

I slew the desire demon in the Mage tower because I didn't want to be responsible for her future victims. Sure, that templar might have been happy, but what happens when he finally dies? She gets a little cottage in the countryside and lives out her days in peaceful seclusion? She would keep doing what she did to that templar, again and again and again ...

Modifié par Face of Evil, 19 janvier 2011 - 11:16 .

[Maria Caliban]

ghostmessiah202 wrote...

See the difference between humans and spirits is free will. (It says that in a codex somewhere). So unlike humans, All desire demons will act the exact same way given the exact same conditions. So... They are all evil/parasitic given the chance.

Note: the free will thing was in some codex but it said the fade and its spirits where the Makers first creation, and humans the second. The difference between the two was free will and the ability to adapt/evolve (socially).

That's incorrect. The codex doesn't mention anything about free will. The Maker's First Children were unable to create and lacked imagination.

[Thicos]

I only want Desire Demon playable, please

[ISpeakTheTruth]

And I'm sure that the want to liberate the Desire spirits is based off of some kind of deep belief that there is good in them... and has nothing at all to do with them being virtually naked right? lol

[ObserverStatus]

Maria Caliban wrote...

ghostmessiah202 wrote...

See the difference between humans and spirits is free will. (It says that in a codex somewhere). So unlike humans, All desire demons will act the exact same way given the exact same conditions. So... They are all evil/parasitic given the chance.

Note: the free will thing was in some codex but it said the fade and its spirits where the Makers first creation, and humans the second. The difference between the two was free will and the ability to adapt/evolve (socially).

That's incorrect. The codex doesn't mention anything about free will. The Maker's First Children were unable to create and lacked imagination.

Still, I don't agree with the mage who wrote this.  I think that the Shade's campsite trap in the forest disproves these assumptions.

[Maria Caliban]

bobobo878 wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

That's incorrect. The codex doesn't mention anything about free will. The Maker's First Children were unable to create and lacked imagination.

Still, I don't agree with the mage who wrote this.  I think that the Shade's campsite trap in the forest disproves these assumptions.

Howso?

[The Night Haunter]

Maria Caliban wrote...

bobobo878 wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

That's incorrect. The codex doesn't mention anything about free will. The Maker's First Children were unable to create and lacked imagination.

Still, I don't agree with the mage who wrote this.  I think that the Shade's campsite trap in the forest disproves these assumptions.

Howso?

It takes a pretty good imagination to think up a clever trap like that.