128 réponses à ce sujet

[bcooper56]

On my one playthrough i was mage and killed the dragon and a new mage tower was built but issue is apraently the one guy retired and the new templar had it even more harsh on mages that when you were there.

Any one else get this ending?

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Did you invoke annulment on the Circle? That's how you get that ending. In which case, dunno why you'd be bothered by a bad ending for the mages, seeing how you wiped them out in the first place.



Mage endings are not very happy, regardless. If you saved the mages, and had Anora/Alistair grant freedom to the circle, Cullen the templar flips out and kills apprentices before running off like a cackling mad man.

[bcooper56]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Did you invoke annulment on the Circle? That's how you get that ending. In which case, dunno why you'd be bothered by a bad ending for the mages, seeing how you wiped them out in the first place.

Mage endings are not very happy, regardless. If you saved the mages, and had Anora/Alistair grant freedom to the circle, Cullen the templar flips out and kills apprentices before running off like a cackling mad man.

Umm im not sure how i falled it. I went in and said i would free mages told one trap templar i would not kill them all and all  i did was go and fill bosses up in finale area of the tower.

[IanPolaris]

In DAO/DAA there is no good ending for mages. IMHO one reason they cut the PC==Bloodmage confrontation is that DG would be forced with a situation where a bloodmage stood up to the circle and the chantry and made it STICK.



Even if you do ask Alistair (or Anora) to free the circle (which they say they will), the Chantry says "no" and that's that....at least until DA2.



-Polaris

[Addai]

No good ending for mages IMO. Best you can do is be a mage Warden and show everyone what a mage can do when freed from the Chantry's restrictions.

[mousestalker]

I asked for riches and wound up becoming Teyrn of Gwaren. That's pretty much the best result for one mage.



Srs Ansr: What Addai67 said.

[CalJones]

On my first few mages I asked for freedom for the Circle, which seemed like a good ending, right up until DG came out and said, oops, Chantry says no.

I tend to make my mages Chancellor now. That works for me.

[IanPolaris]

CalJones wrote...

On my first few mages I asked for freedom for the Circle, which seemed like a good ending, right up until DG came out and said, oops, Chantry says no.
I tend to make my mages Chancellor now. That works for me.

This is one reason I am awaiting DA2 with baited breath because DG also said (or at least strongly hinted) that there would be rather important (severe?) consequences (presumably for the Chantry) if you did ask for this boon and the Chantry deep-sixed it.

I also think (as I've said before) that the Bloodmage scene in the tower was deliberately disabled not (just) because the devs ran out of time and money [which I don't believe because you can restore it completely as originally intended with a simple mod and two console commands] but because this scene essentially has a PC Bloodmage stand up to the Circle and Chantry insist that mages under Grey Warden Aegis are not under their jurisidiction (not even bloodmages) and then makes it stick in the most brutally effective and obvious way possible.

I don't think that DG was prepared to have that Mage Grey Warden make that sort of impact in the world, IMHO.

-Polaris

[Sabariel]

I think they saved the big "mage freedom fight" and the happy mage endings for DA2, so no... no happy endings for the mages in DAO or DAA.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

When it comes to blood magic and the Chantry, I wonder if the real reason the Chantry opposes it is not because it believes blood magic to be evil, but that it is fueled by a readily available source of power that the Chantry does not, nor cannot, control.



The Chantry controls the lyrium trade totally, and for normal mages, lyrium is the only way they can perform large amounts of, or very powerful, acts of magic. With blood magic, the source, being life force/blood, is not something they have a monopoly on. They can't control blood, they can't control life. Only the flow of lyrium.



Blood magic provides a route for mages to circumvent their control of lyrium and use an alternative source of power. If the Circle were freed, the Chantry might try to reign them back in with its lyrium monopoly. Which might push the mages into resorting to blood magic.



Who knows.

[ReplicantZero]

The establishment of a new circle in Orzammar outside of Chantry control (an indirect result of helping Dagna) seems to offer some hope for future mages imo.

Modifié par ReplicantZero, 10 janvier 2011 - 02:01 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

ReplicantZero wrote...

The establishment of a new circle in Orzammar outside of Chantry control (an indirect result of helping Dagna) seems to offer some hope for future mages imo.

This.

If there's any hope for mages in the immediate near future, it is in Orzammar with the dwarves (provided Bhelen is running the show, since Harrowmont blocks off ties with the surface). My canon mage plans on goingto Orzammar and setting up a Warden base there or in the Deep Roads.

The dwarves are less paranoid and fearful of magic, so mages would probably have a better chance at self determination there.

[CalJones]

It was my understanding that the blood mage confrontation in the Circle quest was removed because it could potentially result in a fight that would kill off both mage and templar allies, thus breaking the main quest.

Having said that, the possible fall of the Chantry is a theme in DA2, as far as I can gather, so that makes it rather an interesting prospect.

[ReplicantZero]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
If there's any hope for mages in the immediate near future, it is in Orzammar with the dwarves (provided Bhelen is running the show, since Harrowmont blocks off ties with the surface). My canon mage plans on goingto Orzammar and setting up a Warden base there or in the Deep Roads.

Still got the foundation of the new Orzammar circle after backing Harrowmont (can't ever bring myself to back Bhelen knowing what a treacherous, murderous scumbag he is). However one thing I believe would scupper it would be to help the priest establish a chantry in Orzammar.

Modifié par ReplicantZero, 10 janvier 2011 - 06:32 .

[LobselVith8]

bcooper56 wrote...

On my one playthrough i was mage and killed the dragon and a new mage tower was built but issue is apraently the one guy retired and the new templar had it even more harsh on mages that when you were there.

Any one else get this ending?

Cullen is mentally unstable, and becomes the new Knight-Commander if you culled the Circle during "A Broken Circle" (or if you allowed Irving to perish, forcing Greagoir to eliminate the rest of the mages in the Circle Tower). Helping save Irving and supporting the mages to be spared prevents Cullen from taking over the Circle Tower, since Greagoir doesn't participate in the attack against the darkspawn and doesn't die as a result.

In terms of what would be the best outcome for the mages in Ferelden, that's early up for debate. Asking the ruler of Ferelden for the mages to be given their independence, and helping Dagna in Orzammar gain entry into the Circle (without helping the dwarven Chantry to be open) are the best options for the mages IHMO. Despite Gaider admitting that the Chantry says no to the Magi boon that the Hero of Ferelden asks for, it sends a clear message throughout Thedas that the Hero of Ferelden and the ruler of a nation both support the idea that mages have earned the right to govern themselves, and Dagna's research helps establish an independent Circle of Magi in Orzammar free from the oppressive grip of the Chantry.

[mousestalker]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

ReplicantZero wrote...

The establishment of a new circle in Orzammar outside of Chantry control (an indirect result of helping Dagna) seems to offer some hope for future mages imo.

This.

If there's any hope for mages in the immediate near future, it is in Orzammar with the dwarves (provided Bhelen is running the show, since Harrowmont blocks off ties with the surface). My canon mage plans on goingto Orzammar and setting up a Warden base there or in the Deep Roads.

The dwarves are less paranoid and fearful of magic, so mages would probably have a better chance at self determination there.

My canon mage has done this. It's at the fanfic link.

[LobselVith8]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

ReplicantZero wrote...

The establishment of a new circle in Orzammar outside of Chantry control (an indirect result of helping Dagna) seems to offer some hope for future mages imo.

This.

If there's any hope for mages in the immediate near future, it is in Orzammar with the dwarves (provided Bhelen is running the show, since Harrowmont blocks off ties with the surface). My canon mage plans on going to Orzammar and setting up a Warden base there or in the Deep Roads.

The dwarves are less paranoid and fearful of magic, so mages would probably have a better chance at self determination there.

I agree completely. Given the need to reclaim the lost thaigs, I see the existance of an independent Circle of Magi in Orzammar as a significant boon to the King. The Circle can be housed in the building where the Chantry would have otherwise been, and the healers can be benefical to the casteless. Mages can end up playing a prominent role in Orzammar's future. The very reason Duncan admits (in the Magi Origin) to wanting more support from the Circle at Ostagar is because mages are so effective against large groups of darkspawn.

Getting back to the OP and what would benefit mages overall, I don't see being Chancellor or Teyrn of Gwaren as possibilities to improve the lot of mages IMHO. You're either limited by what you can do because of the other nobles, or the possible reprecussions that can transpire because of the overwhelming reach of the Andrastian Chantry. It's still my opinion that asking for the Magi boon carries a load message for anyone interested in helping mages across Thedas, regardless of how the Chantry responds to it. As for what DG said about the Magi boon:

David Gaider wrote...

It does come up, actually.

Keep in mind, however, that the kingdom doesn't control the Circle of Magi. That conversation no doubt went a little like this:

King/Queen: "We would like mages in Ferelden to be free."
Chantry: "No."

That said, the conversation doesn't necessarily stop there-- as you'll see. We can indeed pick up the boons the Origins player was granted and do intend to use them in the future.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

mousestalker wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

ReplicantZero wrote...

The establishment of a new circle in Orzammar outside of Chantry control (an indirect result of helping Dagna) seems to offer some hope for future mages imo.

This.

If there's any hope for mages in the immediate near future, it is in Orzammar with the dwarves (provided Bhelen is running the show, since Harrowmont blocks off ties with the surface). My canon mage plans on goingto Orzammar and setting up a Warden base there or in the Deep Roads.

The dwarves are less paranoid and fearful of magic, so mages would probably have a better chance at self determination there.

My canon mage has done this. It's at the fanfic link.

It seems generally the msot logical course for mages who hate the Chantry and the Circle, but really aren't inetrested in starting a grand revolution, or find such an undertaking potentially futile.

Plus, my mage was pretty much sick and tired of her fellow humans and their religous idiocy, and found the company of the dwarves far more pleasant. The surface rabble gladly keep the mages locked up or persecuted, so she'd rather offer her services and talents to a race of people who she believes actually have a chance of evolving.

I think it would only be possible under Bhelen, though, because Harrowmont epilogues indicate he shuts off all ties to the surface, and expells or blocks surfacers from coming into Orzammar, so I don't think a Circle of Magi would develop much if he were in charge. He prevents human troops from coming in to offer aid against the darkspawn, so i don't think he'd let mages in.

[LobselVith8]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

When it comes to blood magic and the Chantry, I wonder if the real reason the Chantry opposes it is not because it believes blood magic to be evil, but that it is fueled by a readily available source of power that the Chantry does not, nor cannot, control.

Technically, the templars method of using a mage's phylactery to locate them (if they turned apostate) is a form of blood magic.

IanPolaris wrote...

CalJones wrote...

On my first few mages I asked for freedom for the Circle, which seemed like a good ending, right up until DG came out and said, oops, Chantry says no.
I tend to make my mages Chancellor now. That works for me.

This is one reason I am awaiting DA2 with baited breath because DG also said (or at least strongly hinted) that there would be rather important (severe?) consequences (presumably for the Chantry) if you did ask for this boon and the Chantry deep-sixed it.

It's one of the things that bothered me about it's absense in the DA:O expansion and DLC. I don't see how the Hero of Ferelden, having united the various factions of Ferelden and stopping the Blight, and openly asking for the mages of Ferelden to be given their freedom, wouldn't be mentioned. I'm surprised the meeting in Cumberland wasn't happening as a direct result of the Hero of Ferelden asking for this boon from the ruler of Ferelden, who also fully supports this royal boon.

It'd be ridiculous to make a sequel that's going to deal with templars and mages, and not address the one boon that asks for mages in Ferelden to be emancipated, and would have ramifications across Thedas, regardless of how the Chantry responds. Let's not forget that the (Magi) Warden-Command is a mage who is the highest ranking member of the Grey Wardens in Ferelden and can become the new Arl of Amaranthine, despite the laws against mages inheriting a title and the Chantry's creed regarding how "magic must serve man and not rule over him."
 

IanPolaris wrote...

I also think (as I've said before) that the Bloodmage scene in the tower was deliberately disabled not (just) because the devs ran out of time and money [which I don't believe because you can restore it completely as originally intended with a simple mod and two console commands] but because this scene essentially has a PC Bloodmage stand up to the Circle and Chantry insist that mages under Grey Warden Aegis are not under their jurisidiction (not even bloodmages) and then makes it stick in the most brutally effective and obvious way possible.

I don't think that DG was prepared to have that Mage Grey Warden make that sort of impact in the world, IMHO.

-Polaris

It's a real shame, really, because I would have loved to stand up to the Chantry, up close and personal.

[IanPolaris]

CalJones wrote...

It was my understanding that the blood mage confrontation in the Circle quest was removed because it could potentially result in a fight that would kill off both mage and templar allies, thus breaking the main quest.
Having said that, the possible fall of the Chantry is a theme in DA2, as far as I can gather, so that makes it rather an interesting prospect.

Except this is untrue.  You can do two console commands after doing that bloodmage scene in the Tower, and the game finishes perfectly even without Templar OR Mage allies.  If I can fix it with two console commands, surely what you say can't be the whole reason since it would take less than a day of coding to fix the hole (really the only problem is the scene doesn't correctly kill off Gregoire, the mages, and end the quest like it's supposed to...and that's an trivially easy fix).

That tells me that there was more to it than that, and given what DG has said about the Mage's boon in DAO, I strongly suspect that DG intervened literally at the last moment because he wanted BloodHawke to be the savior of the mages and not PCWarden.  Just IMHO.

-Polaris

[KnightofPhoenix]

There is one positive thing about the Circle being annulled. It was dominated by Chantry Loyalists and the Aequitarians who more often then not accept Chantry policy. It being annulled might pave the way for other fraternities and specifically the Lucrosians.

If they can receive financial support from the crown, they might become a more dominating presence in the Circle and that's indeed what my Cousland is planing to do. Discussion on this matter, specifically with Ian Polaris, made me strongly believe that the Lucrosians can have a part to play for change in the future, where they benefit from services they provide.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

LobselVith8 wrote...


Technically, the templars method of using a mage's phylactery to locate them (if they turned apostate) is a form of blood magic.

I think DG said that it wasn't. the difference is, blood magic is magic that is powered/fueled directly by the blood/life force of a living creature. With the phylactery, the blood is a focus of the magic, but the magic itself is not powered by/fueled by blood/life force. It is instead, powered by normal mana/lyrium.

It's one of the things that bothered me about it's absense in the DA:O expansion and DLC. I don't see how the Hero of Ferelden, having united the various factions of Ferelden and stopping the Blight, and openly asking for the mages of Ferelden to be given their freedom, wouldn't be mentioned. I'm surprised the meeting in Cumberland wasn't happening as a direct result of the Hero of Ferelden asking for this boon from the ruler of Ferelden, who also fully supports this royal boon.

The meeting takes place regardlessof what your Warden is. Since you can only get the free-the-circle boon as a mage, its unlikely that this is the source of the meeting. Wynne does say, however, that the Circle is becoming more restless and demanding of its freedom from the Chantry, and she wanted Ines there to try and bring a bit of reason.

It'd be ridiculous to make a sequel that's going to deal with templars and mages, and not address the one boon that asks for mages in Ferelden to be emancipated, and would have ramifications across Thedas, regardless of how the Chantry responds. Let's not forget that the (Magi) Warden-Command is a mage who is the highest ranking member of the Grey Wardens in Ferelden and can become the new Arl of Amaranthine, despite the laws against mages inheriting a title and the Chantry's creed regarding how "magic must serve man and not rule over him."

The problem is, its only one origin that can have that effect, as opposed to 5 others with different motives/boons. Plus, Awakenings ignored plenty of other in game choices from origins. I'm not holding my breath on DA2 being much different in this regard.

However, the fact that the Circle went completely mad and out of control is a constant in all origins, perhaps those ramifications will carry on over.
 

It's a real shame, really, because I would have loved to stand up to the Chantry, up close and personal.

I wish that option had been there for non-blood mages. Just because one isn't a blood mage/maleficar doies not mean that they don't hate the Chantry any less, or want to see its control over mages and the lyrium trade crumble.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

There is one positive thing about the Circle being annulled. It was dominated by Chantry Loyalists and the Aequitarians who more often then not accept Chantry policy. It being annulled might pave the way for other fraternities and specifically the Lucrosians.
If they can receive financial support from the crown, they might become a more dominating presence in the Circle and that's indeed what my Cousland is planing to do. Discussion on this matter, specifically with Ian Polaris, made me strongly believe that the Lucrosians can have a part to play for change in the future, where they benefit from services they provide.

The Libertarians are clearly the dominant force once the circle has been dealt with in Origins, regardless of what course you take.  Wynne says the Libertarians are the ones stirring up the conflict in Cumberland, and have the most influence/loudest voice. And in origins, the Aequetarians are siding more and more with the Libertarians, when you talk to the Enchanter.

The Lucrosians are pretty much a neutral, small, and non-committed group within the circle that does not seem to have much say or concern over circle policy, only that it should make more money.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
The Lucrosians are pretty much a neutral, small, and non-committed group within the circle that does not seem to have much say or concern over circle policy, only that it should make more money.

For political influence and they have it right. If the mages want to have real influence, they should try to make magic look beneficial and profitable to everyone involved and not only scary. Them being used in war on rare occasions is not enough to pressure for change. They need a permanent active role to be integrated into society and that's via economic activity. 

The Libertarians are rising everywhere else, I know. But I don't care much about the others, my concern is the Tower in Ferelden and how it can be integrated into the political system as much as possible. I'd much rather support the Lucrosians in that regard.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 10 janvier 2011 - 08:10 .

[LobselVith8]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Technically, the templars method of using a mage's phylactery to locate them (if they turned apostate) is a form of blood magic.

I think DG said that it wasn't. the difference is, blood magic is magic that is powered/fueled directly by the blood/life force of a living creature. With the phylactery, the blood is a focus of the magic, but the magic itself is not powered by/fueled by blood/life force. It is instead, powered by normal mana/lyrium.

I remember seeing an interview with DG a few months ago (about DA2) and I believe he said that it was a form of blood magic. I even commented about it at the time (at the DA2 forum).

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It's one of the things that bothered me about it's absense in the DA:O expansion and DLC. I don't see how the Hero of Ferelden, having united the various factions of Ferelden and stopping the Blight, and openly asking for the mages of Ferelden to be given their freedom, wouldn't be mentioned. I'm surprised the meeting in Cumberland wasn't happening as a direct result of the Hero of Ferelden asking for this boon from the ruler of Ferelden, who also fully supports this royal boon.

The meeting takes place regardless of what your Warden is. Since you can only get the free-the-circle boon as a mage, its unlikely that this is the source of the meeting. Wynne does say, however, that the Circle is becoming more restless and demanding of its freedom from the Chantry, and she wanted Ines there to try and bring a bit of reason.

But how would that have been any different than Amaranthine being handed over to the Grey Wardens, regardless of their origin? It's tied into Fergus handing it over to the Wardens in the Cousland story, but it's made a part of all the stories. Similarly, I felt it would have made sense if asking for the Magi boon played a role in the meeting if the Warden was from the Circle of Magi. All it would've taken is one line of dialogue, no different than the King or Queen acknowledging her Cousland husband at Vigil's Keep.

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It'd be ridiculous to make a sequel that's going to deal with templars and mages, and not address the one boon that asks for mages in Ferelden to be emancipated, and would have ramifications across Thedas, regardless of how the Chantry responds. Let's not forget that the (Magi) Warden-Command is a mage who is the highest ranking member of the Grey Wardens in Ferelden and can become the new Arl of Amaranthine, despite the laws against mages inheriting a title and the Chantry's creed regarding how "magic must serve man and not rule over him."

The problem is, its only one origin that can have that effect, as opposed to 5 others with different motives/boons. Plus, Awakenings ignored plenty of other in game choices from origins. I'm not holding my breath on DA2 being much different in this regard.

I can understand where you're coming from. The lack of continuity in Awakening and the DLCs bothered me, too, especially when I returned to the Circle in WH and nobody mentioned that little boon I asked for. It wouldn't have taken much effort to have one line of dialogue from the dwarves acknowledging a Paragon (in Awakening), or a line about how an elf, a mage, or both (in my case) was taking on the reigns of Arl of Amaranthine.

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

However, the fact that the Circle went completely mad and out of control is a constant in all origins, perhaps those ramifications will carry on over.

I'd hope so. Actions should have consequences.

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It's a real shame, really, because I would have loved to stand up to the Chantry, up close and personal.

I wish that option had been there for non-blood mages. Just because one isn't a blood mage/maleficar does not mean that they don't hate the Chantry any less, or want to see its control over mages and the lyrium trade crumble.

I couldn't agree more.