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KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
The Lucrosians are pretty much a neutral, small, and non-committed group within the circle that does not seem to have much say or concern over circle policy, only that it should make more money.

For political influence and they have it right. If the mages want to have real influence, they should try to make magic look beneficial and profitable to everyone involved and not only scary. Them being used in war on rare occasions is not enough to pressure for change. They need a permanent active role to be integrated into society and that's via economic activity. 

The Libertarians are rising everywhere else, I know. But I don't care much about the others, my concern is the Tower in Ferelden and how it can be integrated into the political system as much as possible. I'd much rather support the Lucrosians in that regard.

You could have the right approach.  The Libertarians are too likely to scare people into supporting a Chantry backlash.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

LobselVith8 wrote...



I remember seeing an interview with DG a few months ago (about DA2) and I believe he said that it was a form of blood magic. I even commented about it at the time (at the DA2 forum).

really? maybe it's changed, though it would't surprise me. if that's the case, talk about epic doublethink.

But how would that have been any different than Amaranthine being handed over to the Grey Wardens, regardless of their origin? It's tied into Fergus handing it over to the Wardens in the Cousland story, but it's made a part of all the stories. Similarly, I felt it would have made sense if asking for the Magi boon played a role in the meeting if the Warden was from the Circle of Magi. All it would've taken is one line of dialogue, no different than the King or Queen acknowledging her Cousland husband at Vigil's Keep.

I agree it would have been more sensible to make this a possible reason and line of dialogue. However, like many other things in Awakenings that should have been carried over...

As it stands, to cover all origins, since the meeting takes place, I think the meeting, regardless of what you did in Origins, is a reflection of general discontent amongst Magi.

In origins, only the Circle of ferelden is directly affected by the warden's actions. The meeting in Cumberland suggests that the Circles of many countries are involved. Who more than likely were not freed by anyone.

I can understand where you're coming from. The lack of continuity in Awakening and the DLCs bothered me, too, especially when I returned to the Circle in WH and nobody mentioned that little boon I asked for. It wouldn't have taken much effort to have one line of dialogue from the dwarves acknowledging a Paragon (in Awakening), or a line about how an elf, a mage, or both (in my case) was taking on the reigns of Arl of Amaranthine.

i actually got more comment/aggro from people playing an orlesian than i did a mage (even a psychotic blood mage of ferelden got no comment, but being an orlesian of any class did. meh..)

it was annoying the terrible lack of aknowledgement. Its one of the reasons I stopped bothering to ask for the Free Circle boon, because it seemed pointless, really.

I'd hope so. Actions should have consequences.

They should, definitely. Wait and see, in DA2. But in origins, it didn't seem to merit a mention, even though this is a major social/political change.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


For political influence and they have it right. If the mages want to have real influence, they should try to make magic look beneficial and profitable to everyone involved and not only scary. Them being used in war on rare occasions is not enough to pressure for change. They need a permanent active role to be integrated into society and that's via economic activity. 

The Libertarians are rising everywhere else, I know. But I don't care much about the others, my concern is the Tower in Ferelden and how it can be integrated into the political system as much as possible. I'd much rather support the Lucrosians in that regard.

The Circle does already have stores from which they sell things to the general public to make money (like wonders of thedas). And they do seem to lend out mages for hire to the service of nobles or the wealthy. 

But like anything, all proceeds go to the Circle/Chantry coffers. The Chantry is not going to allow even extended commerce by the mages unless it has signifigant control over it. And it will unlikely do so, unless it directly benefits them.

With the mages, your problem will always be the Chantry. The Chantry trumps the crown in matters related to mages. If they can tell the king to f- off when he asks for mages to fight the Blight, they can certainly prevent mages from pursuing enteprenuerial goals. So long as the Chantry continues to exert total dominion over the mages, then there really is no way for even slow independance to work.

And in this, all Circles are the same, regardless of country. they are all controlled by the Chantry. Until this control is signifigantly weakened, there is little chance of anything else working. And in reality, it is not political or social influence mages seek. the majority of them simply want to be free to conduct their lives and business without heavily armed drug addicts or sactimonious spinsters breathing down their necks.

[DragonOfWhiteThunder]

IanPolaris wrote...

CalJones wrote...

On my first few mages I asked for freedom for the Circle, which seemed like a good ending, right up until DG came out and said, oops, Chantry says no.
I tend to make my mages Chancellor now. That works for me.

This is one reason I am awaiting DA2 with baited breath because DG also said (or at least strongly hinted) that there would be rather important (severe?) consequences (presumably for the Chantry) if you did ask for this boon and the Chantry deep-sixed it.

I also think (as I've said before) that the Bloodmage scene in the tower was deliberately disabled not (just) because the devs ran out of time and money [which I don't believe because you can restore it completely as originally intended with a simple mod and two console commands] but because this scene essentially has a PC Bloodmage stand up to the Circle and Chantry insist that mages under Grey Warden Aegis are not under their jurisidiction (not even bloodmages) and then makes it stick in the most brutally effective and obvious way possible.

I don't think that DG was prepared to have that Mage Grey Warden make that sort of impact in the world, IMHO.

-Polaris

Can someone point me to this scene? This is the first I've heard of it.

[LobselVith8]

DragonOfWhiteThunder wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

CalJones wrote...

On my first few mages I asked for freedom for the Circle, which seemed like a good ending, right up until DG came out and said, oops, Chantry says no.
I tend to make my mages Chancellor now. That works for me.

This is one reason I am awaiting DA2 with baited breath because DG also said (or at least strongly hinted) that there would be rather important (severe?) consequences (presumably for the Chantry) if you did ask for this boon and the Chantry deep-sixed it.

I also think (as I've said before) that the Bloodmage scene in the tower was deliberately disabled not (just) because the devs ran out of time and money [which I don't believe because you can restore it completely as originally intended with a simple mod and two console commands] but because this scene essentially has a PC Bloodmage stand up to the Circle and Chantry insist that mages under Grey Warden Aegis are not under their jurisidiction (not even bloodmages) and then makes it stick in the most brutally effective and obvious way possible.

I don't think that DG was prepared to have that Mage Grey Warden make that sort of impact in the world, IMHO.

-Polaris

Can someone point me to this scene? This is the first I've heard of it.

It's a scene that was cut from the game but restored with a mod, where Wynne accuses the Warden of using magic unlike anything she's seen done by the Circle (it happens if the Warden is a blood mage). If you have a high persuasion, you can lie and say it's Grey Warden magic, which Irving is more than happy to readily accept, probably to get Wynne to stop talking about it.

You can see the video of it here.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 11 janvier 2011 - 12:44 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
The Circle does already have stores from which they sell things to the general public to make money (like wonders of thedas). And they do seem to lend out mages for hire to the service of nobles or the wealthy. 

But like anything, all proceeds go to the Circle/Chantry coffers. The Chantry is not going to allow even extended commerce by the mages unless it has signifigant control over it. And it will unlikely do so, unless it directly benefits them.

And compromising with the Chantry will have to be necessary unless they start collapsing. IF they do, great, I pick the lucrosians. If they don't, fine, I'll still pick the Lucrosians.

And their services are not enough. They serve only the nobility but they don't intermingle with the common folk. The Wonders of Thedas has very limited stock. I mean...what would the average joe want to buy from there?

I was thinking more services that emphasizes the potential constructive use of magic.
Like firefighters. Yea, Denerim needs firefighters. Or public hospitals with mage healers. Or maybe mages that can increase the fertility of lands.

The possibilities are almost limitless. And if the Ferelden crown can support the Lucrosians and use some of its authority to mediate with the Chantry, I can see it happening in Ferelden. Sure, the Chantry will have to collect a percentage of the profits.

If they dont' accept, then they don't, too bad for them they miss out the opportunity to collect a lot of money. Money they are going to need to face off whatever it is that is going to bring it down.

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
 And in reality, it is not political or social influence mages seek. the majority of them simply want to be free to conduct their lives and business without heavily armed drug addicts or sactimonious spinsters breathing down their necks.

Ah, but freedom is almost never given without responsabilities and leverage. It's in their interest to have social and political influence, or do they really expect their freedom to be given to them on a silver platter?

Their freedom is removed not only because of the Chantry, but because of fear (partially due to the Chantry but not solely, believe it or not, people can be hateful without religion or dogma). Alleviating that fear, by providing benefits is the good way to go.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 11 janvier 2011 - 12:50 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


And compromising with the Chantry will have to be necessary unless they start collapsing. IF they do, great, I pick the lucrosians. If they don't, fine, I'll still pick the Lucrosians.

And their services are not enough. They serve only the nobility but they don't intermingle with the common folk. The Wonders of Thedas has very limited stock. I mean...what would the average joe want to buy from there?

I was thinking more services that emphasizes the potential constructive use of magic.
Like firefighters. Yea, Denerim needs firefighters. Or public hospitals with mage healers. Or maybe mages that can increase the fertility of lands.

The possibilities are almost limitless. And if the Ferelden crown can support the Lucrosians and use some of its authority to mediate with the Chantry, I can see it happening in Ferelden. Sure, the Chantry will have to collect a percentage of the profits.

If they dont' accept, then they don't, too bad for them they miss out the opportunity to collect a lot of money. Money they are going to need to face off whatever it is that is going to bring it down.

 

that's assuming you could reach a comprimise with the Chantry. Which i highly doubt.

remeber the Ostagar scene, where that Chantry Mother (think it was the Grand Cleric, or someone of high standing) says to Uldred about not trusting lives to his spells? Do you really think these same people are going to allow mages to fight fires in cities, provide healing services to the general population, or assit farmers in growing more food?

My point is not that your idea is a bad one. But it's highly unlikely so long as the Chantry remains strong, and continues to assert absolute control over the circles. from everything I've seen of the Lore, magic and mages are the one thing the Chantry is unlikely to make any consessions on. Especially as said consessions do not provide the same benefit as its continued policy of the mages.

magic, is, after all, perhaps the Chantry's most powerful bit of leverage, and gives them signifigant power. Allowing mages to engage in public entpreneurial activities, no matter how beneficial to the public, don't benefit the Chantry as much. And keeping people fearful/paranoid of mages is far more valuable to the Chantry, since it keeps support and justification for its control over magic, and as a side effect, justifies their continued monopoly over the lyrium trade, a far more lucrative activity than allowing mages to sell their services.

before anything productive can be done with the circle, the Chantry has to be knocked down a peg or two

Ah, but freedom is almost never given without responsabilities and leverage. It's in their interest to have social and political influence, or do they really expect their freedom to be given to them on a silver platter?

Their freedom is removed not only because of the Chantry, but because of fear (partially due to the Chantry but not solely, believe it or not, people can be hateful without religion or dogma). Alleviating that fear, by providing benefits is the good way to go.

As I said, this fear benefits the Chantry more than understanding/acceptance of mages would. In fact, I think the Chantry promotes the fear and misunderstanding of mages. If people were less fearful of them, people would be less willing to voluntarily give up their mage kids to be cloistered in prisons, or would be more likely to turn to mages for help and guidance, as opposed to the Chantry.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
remeber the Ostagar scene, where that Chantry Mother (think it was the Grand Cleric, or someone of high standing) says to Uldred about not trusting lives to his spells? Do you really think these same people are going to allow mages to fight fires in cities, provide healing services to the general population, or assit farmers in growing more food?

She opposed a military application of magic. Here, it's not the same thing.  They might be irrrational, but they are not that stupid. If they are promised with a large percentage of the profits, where magic does indeed serve man, they would have incentives to accept, especially if they start facing a political crisis.

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
And keeping people fearful/paranoid of mages is far more valuable to the Chantry, since it keeps support and justification for its control over magic, and as a side effect, justifies their continued monopoly over the lyrium trade, a far more lucrative activity than allowing mages to sell their services.

They can do both. No one is telling them to change rethoric. Now at least.
If the Libertarian threat is increased, the Chantry might come to its senses. Or it might do the exact oipposite. I am not really betting on this, I don't care that much at the moment.

I am not concerned with the rest of the Circle, only Ferelden's. If the Crown gives a good deal to the Chantry, which itself might become pressured from other events like the rise of Libertarians, I can see them accepting.

If not, then oh well. I would still financially support the Lucrosians in order to get enchantements for my ships.
That's the real priority for me.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


She opposed a military application of magic. Here, it's not the same thing.  They might be irrrational, but they are not that stupid. If they are promised with a large percentage of the profits, where magic does indeed serve man, they would have incentives to accept, especially if they start facing a political crisis.

i dount it was for the military application of magic, seeing how the whole purpose of the mages there was military assaults. They weren't there to conjure rainbows to entertain the darkspawn (though maybe that was part of Cailan's "strategy"). It was clear to be she did not like the idea of mages casting spells that were not approved and supervised/sanctioned by the Chantry.

I don't think profits would be enough to convince the Chantry, since they make plenty of those by continuing to exert control over Circles and Lyrium. certainly not enough to allow more integrated magery with society. Like I said, control of magic gives them power, even power over soverigns and monarchs.

If not, then oh well. I would still financially support the Lucrosians in order to get enchantements for my ships.
That's the real priority for me.

provided the Chantry let them in the first place.

it has been one of my arguements for freeing up the mage Circles. having a foreign entity like the Chantry in charge of your most powerful single military/general resource is something any sensible nation would do well to remedy.

having the Chantry continue to hold absolute authority over the Circle is like allowing the UN to have control and authority over your nation's stockpile of unconvention super weapons or scientific research facilities. Not a great idea, for certain.

Supposedly, in DA2, there is a possible chance of breaking the Chantry's power and ruining them. Whatever it is, we shall see. But if it turns out to be something feasible and universally applicable, then there's your answer to getting your Lucrosian dream started.

I just hope that the only other option to breaking the Chantry isn't something inherently stupid or pointless like siding with the qunari.<_<

[KnightofPhoenix]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...
i dount it was for the military application of magic, seeing how the whole purpose of the mages there was military assaults. They weren't there to conjure rainbows to entertain the darkspawn (though maybe that was part of Cailan's "strategy"). It was clear to be she did not like the idea of mages casting spells that were not approved and supervised/sanctioned by the Chantry.

Because she was afraid he would do some ultra inferno or something.

Healing is not unsanctionned, so I don't see why they would oppose a public hospital except for refusing to see that their leash on the mages is going to get reduced one way or the other.

provided the Chantry let them in the first place.

They don't have to. As we see in the game, some Templars and mages make shady deals (involving lyrium mostly). Same can be done with enchantements.

I wil be damned if I like an idiotic institution jeapordize my super navy.

And if the Chantry weakens in all of Thedas, I would bring it down and found a new one. Problem is Ferelden can't do this on its own and it has to wait for the perfect moment.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...


They don't have to. As we see in the game, some Templars and mages make shady deals (involving lyrium mostly). Same can be done with enchantements.

I wil be damned if I like an idiotic institution jeapordize my super navy.

And if the Chantry weakens in all of Thedas, I would bring it down and found a new one. Problem is Ferelden can't do this on its own and it has to wait for the perfect moment.

No it, definitely can't. But it doesn't need to. there are other routes through which this can be done. Not to mention major forces/winds of change beyond Ferelden which can get the ball rolling.

depending on what DA2 shows or adds, your super navy could be a hop-skip-and a jump away. Well, provided it isn;t implemtented with something idiotic.

If the Chantry weakens in all of Thedas, like a sort of reformation Thedas style, I'm willing to guess that quite a few countries might jump at the resulting power vacuum and make the msot of it by supporting the formation of their new and improved (and more localized, loyal to the crown) Chantries in its place.

Which, depending on who is forming what, would probably be a very good thing for mages in general.

Which would make me happy and further my own plans.

[LobselVith8]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...



For political influence and they have it right. If the mages want to have real influence, they should try to make magic look beneficial and profitable to everyone involved and not only scary. Them being used in war on rare occasions is not enough to pressure for change. They need a permanent active role to be integrated into society and that's via economic activity.

Wouldn't this be more feasible to do for the independent Circle in Orzammar? The people in Dust Town could benefit from the healers, as could the nobles, and the lost thaigs can be reclaimed. People in Ferelden, and likely across the Andrastian nations of Thedas, are taught to hate and fear mages, with the Chantry blaming them for the Blights.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...



The Libertarians are rising everywhere else, I know. But I don't care much about the others, my concern is the Tower in Ferelden and how it can be integrated into the political system as much as possible. I'd much rather support the Lucrosians in that regard.

Except the mages are under the thumb of the Chantry, and they have absolute control over mages. Mages can't inherit a title, can't raise their children, and some can't marry. It's only because Alistair and Anora share a desire to improve the lot of mages that Wynne is even offered a position at the royal court. The Chantry has final say when it comes to mages (and the only exception are the ones who become Grey Wardens). They're not in any position to gain any measure of power for themselves unless they take it by force.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...



And compromising with the Chantry will have to be necessary unless they start collapsing. IF they do, great, I pick the lucrosians. If they don't, fine, I'll still pick the Lucrosians.



And their services are not enough. They serve only the nobility but they don't intermingle with the common folk. The Wonders of Thedas has very limited stock. I mean...what would the average joe want to buy from there?



I was thinking more services that emphasizes the potential constructive use of magic.

Like firefighters. Yea, Denerim needs firefighters. Or public hospitals with mage healers. Or maybe mages that can increase the fertility of lands.

The common folk don't even tolerate elves moving out of the alienage, going as far as to burn down their homes, so I can see a real problem with trying to integrate mages into the daily lives of people who have been raised to fear and hate mages because of Chantry propaganda. Perhaps the actions of a Magi Warden stopping the Blight might help the people of Ferelden move past their prejudices against mages, but considering that the heroic actions of the elven Garahel were forgetten about after the last Blight, then I don't really see any long-lasting change for the mages unless they revolt against the Chantry and claim their freedom.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...



The possibilities are almost limitless. And if the Ferelden crown can support the Lucrosians and use some of its authority to mediate with the Chantry, I can see it happening in Ferelden. Sure, the Chantry will have to collect a percentage of the profits.



If they dont' accept, then they don't, too bad for them they miss out the opportunity to collect a lot of money. Money they are going to need to face off whatever it is that is going to bring it down.

Except the Chantry has no reason to relinquish their control over the mages, especially since they've retained this control for hundreds of years. Mages have absolutely no rights, and all of them are under Chantry control. The alternative for mages would be to head to Orzammar and establish their own independent Circle, following the suggestions that you have given to establish a place among the dwarven people. Otherwise, the Chantry will demand their compliance, or their death.

KnightofPhoenix wrote...



Ah, but freedom is almost never given without responsabilities and leverage. It's in their interest to have social and political influence, or do they really expect their freedom to be given to them on a silver platter?



Their freedom is removed not only because of the Chantry, but because of fear (partially due to the Chantry but not solely, believe it or not, people can be hateful without religion or dogma). Alleviating that fear, by providing benefits is the good way to go.

True, freedom is never given. But why expect the Chantry to change its behavior with the mages when even their invaluable assistance in the New Exalted Marches (acting as one of the main reasons that they won the war against the invading Qunari armies, according to Genitivi) then I don't expect anything else to motivate them, especially since the royal boon of a Magi Hero of Ferelden won't convince them to relinquish their control of the Circle of Ferelden.



If helping save the Andrastian nations from the Qunari (along with their assistance during the Blights) isn't going to change their behavior, then I don't expect anything else will. The mages are virtually slaves to the Chantry, and that isn't going to change unless they revolt against the people holding their leash. Maybe the mages need a Toussaint L'Ouverture in their midst to revolt against the Chantry and claim their freedom.

[IanPolaris]

LobselVith8 wrote...

It's a scene that was cut from the game but restored with a mod, where Wynne accuses the Warden of using magic unlike anything she's seen done by the Circle (it happens if the Warden is a blood mage). If you have a high persuasion, you can lie and say it's Grey Warden magic, which Irving is more than happy to readily accept, probably to get Wynne to stop talking about it.

You can see the video of it here.

You are almost right.  The scene was not cut.  The triggers for that scene were disabled.  The party-line excuse for this was the scene broke the Landsmeet quest, but I don't buy that (at least not completely) since you can fix this with two console commands.  I believe the real reason is DG intervened at the last moment because he didn't want a PC Bloodmage to insist on Grey Warden magical independance and have it stick in the most brutally effective way possible.

As for the persuade check, it's not  a hard persuade check.  I believe the target number for the check is '10' which means the only way you can fail it is not to try (because Irving does take the opportunity to cover for you).

-Polaris

[White_Buffalo94]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Did you invoke annulment on the Circle? That's how you get that ending. In which case, dunno why you'd be bothered by a bad ending for the mages, seeing how you wiped them out in the first place.

Mage endings are not very happy, regardless. If you saved the mages, and had Anora/Alistair grant freedom to the circle, Cullen the templar flips out and kills apprentices before running off like a cackling mad man.

I freed the tower and survived the death of the AD. That didn't happen to me

[White_Buffalo94]

in fact, nothing bad happened to my mage warden other than the fact he lost Morrigan, but he finds her in Witch Hunt!

[LobselVith8]

White_Buffalo94 wrote...

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Did you invoke annulment on the Circle? That's how you get that ending. In which case, dunno why you'd be bothered by a bad ending for the mages, seeing how you wiped them out in the first place.

Mage endings are not very happy, regardless. If you saved the mages, and had Anora/Alistair grant freedom to the circle, Cullen the templar flips out and kills apprentices before running off like a cackling mad man.

I freed the tower and survived the death of the AD. That didn't happen to me

I believe that only happens if you culled the Circle, or failed to save Irving. If that happens, and you don't ask for the Magi boon, then Cullen becomes the new Knight-Commander because Greagoir dies as a result of injuries he's sustained at the Battle of Denerim, and Cullen rules the Circle in fear. If you ask for the Circle to be granted it's independence as your royal boon, then Cullen doesn't become the new Knight-Commander, he instead murders a few mages and heads off to murder some more.

[White_Buffalo94]

charming

[LobselVith8]

IanPolaris wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It's a scene that was cut from the game but restored with a mod, where Wynne accuses the Warden of using magic unlike anything she's seen done by the Circle (it happens if the Warden is a blood mage). If you have a high persuasion, you can lie and say it's Grey Warden magic, which Irving is more than happy to readily accept, probably to get Wynne to stop talking about it.

You can see the video of it here.

You are almost right.  The scene was not cut.  The triggers for that scene were disabled.  The party-line excuse for this was the scene broke the Landsmeet quest, but I don't buy that (at least not completely) since you can fix this with two console commands.  I believe the real reason is DG intervened at the last moment because he didn't want a PC Bloodmage to insist on Grey Warden magical independance and have it stick in the most brutally effective way possible.

As for the persuade check, it's not  a hard persuade check.  I believe the target number for the check is '10' which means the only way you can fail it is not to try (because Irving does take the opportunity to cover for you).

-Polaris

Thanks. I agree, I don't see how it would break the Landsmeet quest, when neither the templars nor the mages factor into the Landsmeet argument. It's not like the corpses of Irving or Greagoir are going to rat you out as a blood mage or anything like that. You have support from the other races, after all. And Irving does come up with a rather hasty B.S. excuse for the Warden to keep Wynne quiet, if the persuasion argument is used about "Grey Warden magic."

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

That was Irving's best moment, in my opinion, when he diplomatically tells Wynne to STFU and mind her own business.



The situation with the mages, no matter how much one might want it, will not be resolved neatly or slowly. The very nature of the conflict between the two factions is really only going one way: confrontation. I think its one of those forces that you really can't control, you can only wait for the right moment and opportunity to take advantage of the situation once it has come to a head. I think this might be part of what happens in DA2.



The mages have been under the Chantry boot for so long, they are most likely tired of waiting for peaceful resolution, empty promises, or their perspective nations to actually do something about it, or even care about their welfare. They probably have come to the conclusion that if they want something done, they will have to do it themselves.



And unlike the elves, the mages actually have the means and power to possibly succeed. Not only do you have the combined might of several circles from several nations, as well as numerous apostates/maleficar at large, they do have one very big potential ally: Tevinter. Even the combined templar armies of Thedas' Chantries could not bring the mage nation down. It is possible some sort of arrangement could be reached.



But the situation is going to hit a critical point, like a sealed pot of boiling water. The top is going to blow, and its going to get incredibly messy. But given that it seems the Libertarians are incresing in numbers all over Thedas, it seems major conflict is going to be inevitable.



If one stays alert and keeps their eyes and ears open, they can take advantage of the situation. But I don't think it is going to be preventable. I think the mages in general have pretty much exhausted any supplies they had of patience and hope. And its going to get ugly.

[IanPolaris]

Skadi,



The mages have another potential (and possibly potent) ally. Orzammar. If the mages can get a foothold w.o. chantry oversight in Orzammar (and that seems to be canon under King Bhelen and First Enchanter Dagna), it could very well be the match that makes this all blow....because Circles in Orzammar would have an independant lyrium supply,and you can bet the Dwarves would not only allow but encourage all magic that is useful against the darkspawn....even bloodmagic.



Dwarves don't seem to be afraid of magic at all, and don't have a fear of bloodmagic.



-Polaris

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

IanPolaris wrote...

Skadi,

The mages have another potential (and possibly potent) ally. Orzammar. If the mages can get a foothold w.o. chantry oversight in Orzammar (and that seems to be canon under King Bhelen and First Enchanter Dagna), it could very well be the match that makes this all blow....because Circles in Orzammar would have an independant lyrium supply,and you can bet the Dwarves would not only allow but encourage all magic that is useful against the darkspawn....even bloodmagic.

Dwarves don't seem to be afraid of magic at all, and don't have a fear of bloodmagic.

-Polaris

Its a possibility, but a distant one. They would need a very big incentive to get the dwarves on their side, and I'm not sure they have one. Having mages available at their beck and call certainly would be an incentive, but would it be a big enough incentive that the dwarves would be willing to risk all out war and trade blockades from the surface kingdoms?

The dwarves also show little desire to get involved in surface politics, and the surface trade is very important to them. They certainly wouldn't do it out of the kindness of their hearts. The mages would have to be able to offer alternative methods of wealth and trade, which I do not think they have.

I brought this up before, but in terms of Ferelden as a nation breaking away from the main Chantry. A nation, with proper planning and incentives, could pull it off, but the mages themselves? Highly unlikely. The dwarves are already on shaky ground, in terms of their survival and numbers, they would not be willing to risk that for the sake of the mages. Only if something was offered to them that had benefits far outweighing the risks.

Tevinter itself could theorhetically provide some form of incentive, but when you look at the geography, it would be pretty unfeasible, since they are so far apart, and would have to use the deep roads to trade over long distances, whoch would be dangerous and unprofitable.

The dwarves could end up playing a big part, however, once such a conflict were in full swing, but getting them to help out in the first place is highly unlikely, as such a conflict is unecessary and dangerous for them.

[IanPolaris]

Skadi,



Assuming a King Bhelen, I don't think that Dwarf wipes his behind unless it's in his (and Orzammar's best interest) and I certainly don't think he understands the concept of charity. However, Darkspawn have magic and Dwarven combat teams do not. That is a HUGE disadvantage the dwarves have to deal with on a daily basis.



I am virtually certain that magical circles in Orzammar would answer directly to the King of Orzammar and would be required to give military aid and direct support (esp battlemagic support and healing) to the fight in the deep roads. If King Bhelen can get more magical support to help Orzammar, I think at the very least he'd at least consider coming in on the side of mages especially since Circles in Orzammar have pretty much poisoned any relationship with the human Chantry (which Dwarves almost universally seem to hold in low regard anyway).



-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

[oops. double post]

Modifié par IanPolaris, 11 janvier 2011 - 03:41 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

The Chantry is the sole buyer of Lyrium, Orzammar's greatest resource. If having a circle in Orzammar pisses the Chantry off, why would Bhelen jeopardize his main source of income for mages?

But Bhelen is smart and I am sure he will realize the military value of mages. So I can see himtrying to play both sides. The question is, if the Chantry threatens Orzammar with an exalted March over this issue, or a blockade to block Orzammar from the surface. Would Bhelen stubbornly cling to the mages?

This is not only Orzammar's interests we are talking about, but Bhelen's own regime. His alliance with merchants is crucial and if that is compromised, one of the pillars of his regime crumbles.

That's why I believe that while Orzammar definately has a huge part to play in the future (mainly because of Lyrium), it is an imperfect and potentially temporary solution for mages. I do not think it will become a mage utopia without the Chantry noticing and doing something about it.

Now of course the advantage Bhelen has is something similar to MAD (mutually assured destruction). The Chantry blocking off Lyrium trade might destroy Orzammar, but they won't fare any better. An exalted march on the otherhand.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 11 janvier 2011 - 03:53 .

[IanPolaris]

KoP,

I don't see the Divine doing an exalted march on Orzammar...not over this and not unless King Bhelen cuts off Lyrium from the Chantry (which of course he won't do).  Orzammar is a very well defended city built into the mountains themselves, is a garrison state, has (at least potentially) an open military alliance with Fereldan (and Chantry relations with the new king/queen of Fereldan aren't the best), and lots of battleharded troops.

You may say that Orz needs those troops to fight the darkspawn and that's true, but that doesn't mean that Orz would fall quickly or easily to any exalted march NOR (more importantly) does it mean that the Chantry could easily get the political support for an exalted march especially if Ferelden balks at the idea.

Basically unless the Divine is willing to court a HUGE political and military risk, I just don't see them doing much about apostate circles in Orzammar (that's really meaningful anyway).  If they try, they open themselves up on other fronts.

-Polaris