114 réponses à ce sujet

[Pacifien]

How many times must people discuss whether Ashley is a racist? I suppose one more time. And for matters of simplicity, race = species. I purposely stick with racism because "racism" conjures up a stronger emotional response to the character than "speciesism."

I've seen people drive home their opinion that Ashley is racist by taking her own words against aliens and replacing it with something inherently racist like "black people." Her words become "I distrust black people" or "Black people should not have free run of the ship." This, of course, sounds bad.

However, try replacing aliens with something inherently nationalistic such as "russians." Her words become "I distrust russians" or "Russians should not have free run of the ship." Does the intent change in your eyes?

One could even make her opinion both racist and nationalistic, replacing aliens with something like "palestinian." Now her words become "I distrust palestinians" and "Palestinians should not have free run of the ship."

The problem as I see it is that aliens ared used both as a racial description and a nationalistic one. The asari, turians, salarians, and every race of the Citadel present themselves as one people. While there may be rival asari nations on their homeworld, for all purposes, they are one and the same when viewed by outsiders. Each nation does not get their own personal embassy, but the asari as a race do. So if you were to distrust the asari, are you distrusting them as a race or as a nation?

Take Grunt's claim to hate turians. If you warn him to lay off Garrus, he points out that he does not specifically hate Garrus. When he says he hates turians, he apparently does not hate them as a race or else he'd still take exception to Garrus for being turian. In this context, it would appear that Grunt hates turians as a nation.

I suppose the argument could be extended to include what exact Cerberus's goal with humanity is. I suspect in the Illusive Man's case, he seeks to advance humanity as both a race and a nation. Various people within Cerberus have been depicted as racist against anyone not human (Kai Leng) to being protective of humanity's role as a nation (Kelly). Because a species's name is used interchangeably, people with opposing viewpoints seem to find themselves working together because they care about their species as a race, as a nation, or as both.

[James2912]

Pacifien wrote...

How many times must people discuss whether Ashley is a racist? I suppose one more time. And for matters of simplicity, race = species. I purposely stick with racism because "racism" conjures up a stronger emotional response to the character than "speciesism."

I've seen people drive home their opinion that Ashley is racist by taking her own words against aliens and replacing it with something inherently racist like "black people." Her words become "I distrust black people" or "Black people should not have free run of the ship." This, of course, sounds bad.

However, try replacing aliens with something inherently nationalistic such as "russians." Her words become "I distrust russians" or "Russians should not have free run of the ship." Does the intent change in your eyes?

One could even make her opinion both racist and nationalistic, replacing aliens with something like "palestinian." Now her words become "I distrust palestinians" and "Palestinians should not have free run of the ship."

The problem as I see it is that aliens ared used both as a racial description and a nationalistic one. The asari, turians, salarians, and every race of the Citadel present themselves as one people. While there may be rival asari nations on their homeworld, for all purposes, they are one and the same when viewed by outsiders. Each nation does not get their own personal embassy, but the asari as a race do. So if you were to distrust the asari, are you distrusting them as a race or as a nation?

Take Grunt's claim to hate turians. If you warn him to lay off Garrus, he points out that he does not specifically hate Garrus. When he says he hates turians, he apparently does not hate them as a race or else he'd still take exception to Garrus for being turian. In this context, it would appear that Grunt hates turians as a nation.

I suppose the argument could be extended to include what exact Cerberus's goal with humanity is. I suspect in the Illusive Man's case, he seeks to advance humanity as both a race and a nation. Various people within Cerberus have been depicted as racist against anyone not human (Kai Leng) to being protective of humanity's role as a nation (Kelly). Because a species's name is used interchangeably, people with opposing viewpoints seem to find themselves working together because they care about their species as a race, as a nation, or as both.

I 100% agree with this post!

[xlavaina]

Interesting. I'll have to reflect on this. But to start, I think comparing an space sci-fi game and its galactic community to different "races" of the same species isn't exactly the same as Earth's "races". Since the different "races" in ME are also different "species", its not exactly comparing apples and apples.

As said I'll need to ponder this further because it is a very interesting and well thought out point.

Modifié par xlavaina, 10 janvier 2011 - 01:09 .

[Vaenier]

Redacted.

ME is about races. Quarians are looked down apon as a race. The council is built out of races, not nations. The embassies are for races, not nations or planets. Everything is split, there is barely any mixing. there are no independent nations of multiple races. The closest thing you get to a mixed nation is the terminous, and they are a lawless zone of anti governments and criminals.

Modifié par Vaenier, 10 janvier 2011 - 01:31 .

[HopHazzard]

Vaenier wrote...

Well, Ashley made it clear she was talking about race/species with her idea of sacrificing your dog to save yourself from a bear.

That's where she lost me. She was perfectly justified in suggesting that any non-alliance personnel, human or otherwise (it just so happened that there were no human non-alliance personnel at the time), should not have full access to the brand new advanced prototype warship. It was the alien/dog thing that got me. Though in fairness to Ashely, she seems more xenophobic than racist in the broader scheme, and she can be brought around. I still find her abrasive and off-putting though.

[lovgreno]

I like your arguments, this needs some pondering.

However I think Ashley should be compared to a nationalist who is sceptical against foreing customs she doesn't know much about if we are going to make real life comparasions. This in itself isn't enough to make her a racist in my eyes.

[Volus Warlord]

Idiotic post incoming:



It does not matter if Ashley is prejudiced in any way because her hotness conceals her character flaws.



On a more serious note, the two forms of discrimination are basically one and the same, as all turians and all asari are, for all practical purposes, one and the same. Unless they're Blue Suns or something, you see them strictly by their race. There are no major racial splinter groups that "justify" not seeing all turians or all batarians as one and the same.



Devil's advocate.

[Dionkey]

I still don't agree with Cerberus's outlook. You don't need to secure dominance of any kind, that's some BS. Its not like Council races are ganging up on humans. You might even not have a Alien council depending on how you played. The idea that Cerberus holds is that they are fighting for every last right and that is just a blatant lie. Aliens may not believe humanity as much as humans would like to but they aren't exiled or anything, the Quarians and Batarians have the most trouble out of all races. Humans are fine and Ashley's and Cerberus's distrust of aliens is a pathological lie.

[James2912]

Honestly that whole dog comment can be applied as a nationalistic comment for EXAMPLE the US and UK are allies and we like them however if it came down to it the US government would sell out the UK if it saved the US or brought about great benefit. Its just an example. any two countries can be inserted.

[General User]

HopHazzard wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

Well, Ashley made it clear she was talking about race/species with her idea of sacrificing your dog to save yourself from a bear.

That's where she lost me. She was perfectly justified in suggesting that any non-alliance personnel, human or otherwise (it just so happened that there were no human non-alliance personnel at the time), should not have full access to the brand new advanced prototype warship. It was the alien/dog thing that got me. Though in fairness to Ashely, she seems more xenophobic than racist in the broader scheme, and she can be brought around. I still find her abrasive and off-putting though.

Now there’s something interesting I hadn’t thought of before! 
 
Some Alliance planets, Elysium in particular, are mentioned as have large and growing non-human populations. It is very possible that we will see non-humans serving in the Alliance military soon. 

That will be most telling.  Very interesting to consider.

[Dean_the_Young]

Pacifien wrote...

How many times must people discuss whether Ashley is a racist? I suppose one more time. And for matters of simplicity, race = species. I purposely stick with racism because "racism" conjures up a stronger emotional response to the character than "speciesism."

I've seen people drive home their opinion that Ashley is racist by taking her own words against aliens and replacing it with something inherently racist like "black people." Her words become "I distrust black people" or "Black people should not have free run of the ship." This, of course, sounds bad.

However, try replacing aliens with something inherently nationalistic such as "russians." Her words become "I distrust russians" or "Russians should not have free run of the ship." Does the intent change in your eyes?

One could even make her opinion both racist and nationalistic, replacing aliens with something like "palestinian." Now her words become "I distrust palestinians" and "Palestinians should not have free run of the ship."

The problem as I see it is that aliens ared used both as a racial description and a nationalistic one. The asari, turians, salarians, and every race of the Citadel present themselves as one people. While there may be rival asari nations on their homeworld, for all purposes, they are one and the same when viewed by outsiders. Each nation does not get their own personal embassy, but the asari as a race do. So if you were to distrust the asari, are you distrusting them as a race or as a nation?

Take Grunt's claim to hate turians. If you warn him to lay off Garrus, he points out that he does not specifically hate Garrus. When he says he hates turians, he apparently does not hate them as a race or else he'd still take exception to Garrus for being turian. In this context, it would appear that Grunt hates turians as a nation.

I suppose the argument could be extended to include what exact Cerberus's goal with humanity is. I suspect in the Illusive Man's case, he seeks to advance humanity as both a race and a nation. Various people within Cerberus have been depicted as racist against anyone not human (Kai Leng) to being protective of humanity's role as a nation (Kelly). Because a species's name is used interchangeably, people with opposing viewpoints seem to find themselves working together because they care about their species as a race, as a nation, or as both.

I agree. I've pointed out more than once that Mass Effect is a xeno-nationalist setting in which species and nationality are effectively two sides of the same political unit. It's a system created, recognized, and maintained by the Council:  it's your species, not your faction, who is recognized, and the one who controls recognition as the species leader holds the power of claiming authority over the entire species. One race, one representative, which cripples the ability of any group to break off and gain relevance.

In theory, it was a an attempt to open questions of race and identity to the game. In practice, it's application in-game was that almost everyone was entirely motivated politically as opposed to on racist principals. Even the racist terrorist faction doesn't fit the label in tone or action.

In Mass Effect, if someone refers to the Turians, they're nearly always referring to the Turian Heirarchy, and if they talk about Humans they're referring to the Systems Alliance, and there's very real difference in application between anything in the Mass Effect universe and national-identification today, in which most/many nations are still indentified by an ethnic category ('The Chinese', 'the Russians,' 'the Germans,' 'the Japanese.'). Racism is nearly always Nationalism, simply in a galaxy of xeno-national units.

[James2912]

Nationalism does not equal racism people. Although nationalism can lead to racism. I can be proud of my country and want it to succeed even be the best but I don't have to hate other countries. Even if you are a patriotic citizen of your country you can still like and respect other cultures. For example I live in the US along the border with Mexico, I consider myself patriotic however I still love to travel to Mexico and experience its culture. Although sadly not lately but you get my meaning!

[Dean_the_Young]

That's where she lost me. She was perfectly justified in suggesting that any non-alliance personnel, human or otherwise (it just so happened that there were no human non-alliance personnel at the time), should not have full access to the brand new advanced prototype warship. It was the alien/dog thing that got me. Though in fairness to Ashely, she seems more xenophobic than racist in the broader scheme, and she can be brought around. I still find her abrasive and off-putting though.

The dog in the analogy was Humanity.  The Owner was the Council. She never equated aliens to animals.

[Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams]

Vaenier wrote...

Well, Ashley made it clear she was talking about race/species with her idea of sacrificing your dog to save yourself from a bear.

Yes, but you do realize that statement was about the Council races attitudes towards humans, correct?

[The Big Nothing]

The problem, Pacifien, is that the majority of people do not understand the most simple of concepts. They assume that because they play a dialogue-centric video game that they are capable of intelligent communication and understanding.

Racism is not a dislike for a specific race of people but rather judgment based on race. For example, if I say, "Black people have more rhythm than white people," it is racist. It isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it is drawing a perceived correlation based on my own experiences. Likewise, if Ashley says, "I don't trust aliens," it is also due to her own experiences, where she perceives a correlation between humanity's first contact with aliens and the blacklisting of the Williams name.
If anyone here has ever complained of asian driving skills or the frugality of the Jewish it is likely due to your own bad experiences with those people. Regardless, you are as racist as Ashley.
Racism does not imply hatred, only the perceived correlation of a race with something else, good or bad.

Suck it.

P.S. Keep in mind that the term "alien" is relative.

Modifié par The Big Nothing, 10 janvier 2011 - 01:35 .

[Vaenier]

Cerberus Operative Ashley Williams wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

Well, Ashley made it clear she was talking about race/species with her idea of sacrificing your dog to save yourself from a bear.

Yes, but you do realize that statement was about the Council races attitudes towards humans, correct?

That is new. Thank you for enlightening me. It has been a while wince i actually listened to it. Memories get so blurred with time.

I have fixed my post.

Modifié par Vaenier, 10 janvier 2011 - 01:32 .

[didymos1120]

Vaenier wrote...

Well, Ashley made it clear she was talking about race/species with her idea of sacrificing your dog to save yourself from a bear.

Yes, and in her analogy, humanity was the dog.

[Epic777]

This thread is not going to end well

[HopHazzard]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

That's where she lost me. She was perfectly justified in suggesting that any non-alliance personnel, human or otherwise (it just so happened that there were no human non-alliance personnel at the time), should not have full access to the brand new advanced prototype warship. It was the alien/dog thing that got me. Though in fairness to Ashely, she seems more xenophobic than racist in the broader scheme, and she can be brought around. I still find her abrasive and off-putting though.

The dog in the analogy was Humanity.  The Owner was the Council. She never equated aliens to animals.

I got the impression that she believed that was their attitude because she had the same attitude toward them. Though admittedly, I don't like her.

[James2912]

HopHazzard wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

That's where she lost me. She was perfectly justified in suggesting that any non-alliance personnel, human or otherwise (it just so happened that there were no human non-alliance personnel at the time), should not have full access to the brand new advanced prototype warship. It was the alien/dog thing that got me. Though in fairness to Ashely, she seems more xenophobic than racist in the broader scheme, and she can be brought around. I still find her abrasive and off-putting though.

The dog in the analogy was Humanity.  The Owner was the Council. She never equated aliens to animals.

I got the impression that she believed that was their attitude because she had the same attitude toward them. Though admittedly, I don't like her.

Yeah she probably did believe that its only natural that different species sell each other out. She is right however, countries sell each other out all the time, its the Jungle baby! In real history you don't see a lot of examples of genuine altruism sorry to be the one who reminds people of our messed up reality. 

[Dionkey]

James2912 wrote...

HopHazzard wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

That's where she lost me. She was perfectly justified in suggesting that any non-alliance personnel, human or otherwise (it just so happened that there were no human non-alliance personnel at the time), should not have full access to the brand new advanced prototype warship. It was the alien/dog thing that got me. Though in fairness to Ashely, she seems more xenophobic than racist in the broader scheme, and she can be brought around. I still find her abrasive and off-putting though.

The dog in the analogy was Humanity.  The Owner was the Council. She never equated aliens to animals.

I got the impression that she believed that was their attitude because she had the same attitude toward them. Though admittedly, I don't like her.

Yeah she probably did believe that its only natural that different
species sell each other out. She is right however, countries sell each
other out all the time, its the Jungle baby! In real history you don't
see a lot of examples of genuine altruism sorry to be the one who
reminds people of our messed up reality.

I agree with the idea that the council would sell humans out if the
time came to choose earth or the citadel, but what about humans? What if
the council sold out quarians? Would Ashley really care? No because she
is extatic with patriotnism.

EDIT: I messed that post up, should be fixed now.

Modifié par Dionkey, 10 janvier 2011 - 01:45 .

[Pacifien]

Dionkey wrote...
I agree with the idea that the council would sell humans out if the
time came to choose earth or the citadel, but what about humans? What if
the council sold out quarians? Would Ashley really care? No because she
is extatic with patriotnism.

Ashley wouldn't be alone in not caring about the quarians seeing as the Council kicked the quarians out of the Citadel. Perhaps that is one reason why Ashley sees how easily the Council would do the same to humans.

[James2912]

Dionkey wrote...

James2912 wrote...

HopHazzard wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

That's where she lost me. She was perfectly justified in suggesting that any non-alliance personnel, human or otherwise (it just so happened that there were no human non-alliance personnel at the time), should not have full access to the brand new advanced prototype warship. It was the alien/dog thing that got me. Though in fairness to Ashely, she seems more xenophobic than racist in the broader scheme, and she can be brought around. I still find her abrasive and off-putting though.

The dog in the analogy was Humanity.  The Owner was the Council. She never equated aliens to animals.

I got the impression that she believed that was their attitude because she had the same attitude toward them. Though admittedly, I don't like her.

Yeah she probably did believe that its only natural that different
species sell each other out. She is right however, countries sell each
other out all the time, its the Jungle baby! In real history you don't
see a lot of examples of genuine altruism sorry to be the one who
reminds people of our messed up reality.

I agree with the idea that the council would sell humans out if the
time came to choose earth or the citadel, but what about humans? What if
the council sold out quarians? Would Ashley really care? No because she
is extatic with patriotnism.

EDIT: I messed that post up, should be fixed now.

I am glad you care when every country or people gets screwed over, you have a big heart like Kelly, however most people and probably species only care about themselves and  their group, its just how the world works. For example there is a genocide on Earth every 20 years however most people and countries  almost never do anything about it. Dharfur for example. That is the norm and reality so I would say Ashley is no more racist/speciest then the average person/group. 

[Pacifien]

I should point out that turning discussions from being about Mass Effect to being about real world sociopolitical issues gets threads locked, and I'd rather not lock my own thread. Thanks.