114 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

HopHazzard wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

That's where she lost me. She was perfectly justified in suggesting that any non-alliance personnel, human or otherwise (it just so happened that there were no human non-alliance personnel at the time), should not have full access to the brand new advanced prototype warship. It was the alien/dog thing that got me. Though in fairness to Ashely, she seems more xenophobic than racist in the broader scheme, and she can be brought around. I still find her abrasive and off-putting though.

The dog in the analogy was Humanity.  The Owner was the Council. She never equated aliens to animals.

I got the impression that she believed that was their attitude because she had the same attitude toward them. Though admittedly, I don't like her.

Replace 'her' with 'Alliance,' and sure. It's a general recognition that the Council species are alpha-species not only of their worlds, but of the entire galaxy, and no organization or species rises and maintains it's position as Alpha without being capable and willing to be ruthless. No enduring Alpha government (such as the Council races) is firmly or even mostly altruistic, nor will it sacrifice itself itself for some one else. Governments and people who do such kinds of actions don't rise and maintain power in the first place.

It's a cynical view of the world, but in no way a racist (or even erroneous) one.

[Dionkey]

Pacifien wrote...
Ashley wouldn't be alone in not caring about the quarians seeing as the Council kicked the quarians out of the Citadel. Perhaps that is one reason why Ashley sees how easily the Council would do the same to humans.

Very true, although they created the geth I still can't see exiling their people as justifiable. All I am saying is that she sees no interest to help anyone else against a common evil then she has nothing to complain about.

James2912 wrote...


I am glad you care when every
country or people gets screwed over, you have a big heart like Kelly,
however most people and probably species only care about themselves and
 their group, its just how the world works. For example there is a
genocide on Earth every 20 years however most people and countries
 almost never do anything about it. Dharfur for example. That is the
norm and reality so I would say Ashley is no more racist/speciest then
the average person/group. 

True and it saddens me to see people are unaware of what goes on in the world past facebook most of the time. However, just because the majority of our planet thinks like Ashley does not mean the mentality is correct, especially for the future where information and travel is easily obtained.

[The Big Nothing]

Pacifien wrote...

Dionkey wrote...
I agree with the idea that the council would sell humans out if the
time came to choose earth or the citadel, but what about humans? What if
the council sold out quarians? Would Ashley really care? No because she
is extatic with patriotnism.

Ashley wouldn't be alone in not caring about the quarians seeing as the Council kicked the quarians out of the Citadel. Perhaps that is one reason why Ashley sees how easily the Council would do the same to humans.

The reality is that nobody can really care about others until the same problems affect their own lives. We can't really all care about 9/11, or Haiti, or Mayan sacrifices, or abused animals--it's goddamn ludicrous.

Name for me one man or woman who ever championed a cause that did not affect him or her and I will eat my hat. 

Get real people. We're all selfish. 

Ashley accepts it, why can't you?

Modifié par The Big Nothing, 10 janvier 2011 - 02:07 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Dionkey wrote...
All I am saying is that she sees no interest to help anyone else against a common evil then she has nothing to complain about.

When has she ever taken such a position?

Ash's position is that the Alliance shouldn't let itself become incapable of standing alone should it need to, and an extention of that is not compromising top-secret Alliance technology. She's never said or taken a position that there should be no cooperating with other races against a common threat, or even no cooperating at all.

[Dean_the_Young]

The Big Nothing wrote...

Pacifien wrote...

Dionkey wrote...
I agree with the idea that the council would sell humans out if the
time came to choose earth or the citadel, but what about humans? What if
the council sold out quarians? Would Ashley really care? No because she
is extatic with patriotnism.

Ashley wouldn't be alone in not caring about the quarians seeing as the Council kicked the quarians out of the Citadel. Perhaps that is one reason why Ashley sees how easily the Council would do the same to humans.

The reality is that nobody can really care about others until the same problems affect their own lives.

Since the knowledge of something is an affect on a person, this is an utterly meaningless statement that is functionally identical to 'people can't care about things they don't even know exist.'

[Dionkey]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Dionkey wrote...
All I am saying is that she sees no interest to help anyone else against a common evil then she has nothing to complain about.

When has she ever taken such a position?

Ash's position is that the Alliance shouldn't let itself become incapable of standing alone should it need to, and an extention of that is not compromising top-secret Alliance technology. She's never said or taken a position that there should be no cooperating with other races against a common threat, or even no cooperating at all.

The Normandy isn't top secret across the alliance, it was built with a joint turian-alliance team. If Ashley can't integrate Alien crew members into her society without double checking her shoulders every 10 seconds then she has some pre conceived idea behind it. There is no reason for dominance in the galaxy in anyway. The alliance can hold its own just like any other empire. I am not giving immunity to aliens so they can gain some kind of huge advantage over us.

[James2912]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Dionkey wrote...
All I am saying is that she sees no interest to help anyone else against a common evil then she has nothing to complain about.

When has she ever taken such a position?

Ash's position is that the Alliance shouldn't let itself become incapable of standing alone should it need to, and an extention of that is not compromising top-secret Alliance technology. She's never said or taken a position that there should be no cooperating with other races against a common threat, or even no cooperating at all.

True and on top of that she is on a mission to save the entire galaxy from a galactic holocaust! so I cut her and a lot of the other people/aliens whatever on the mission a little slack. 
However I do agree we should be a little more caring for each other. However realistically lets say humanity complained about the Quarrians being outcasts it would be political suicide and a sign of weakness we would have probably not gotten on the council. I personally support the Quarians however I do not to see the human race permanently sidelined because of it. Life isn't fair it sucks, but we all have to deal with it every day!


The Council to me is an  unjust organization it committs genocide twice and also smacks the quarrains when they are down, which is the sign of a judgemental bully and a character flaw.  I would support the overthrow of the Council and a new Galactic Republic where every race gets a say! 

Modifié par James2912, 10 janvier 2011 - 02:19 .

[The Big Nothing]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The Big Nothing wrote...

Pacifien wrote...

Dionkey wrote...
I agree with the idea that the council would sell humans out if the
time came to choose earth or the citadel, but what about humans? What if
the council sold out quarians? Would Ashley really care? No because she
is extatic with patriotnism.

Ashley wouldn't be alone in not caring about the quarians seeing as the Council kicked the quarians out of the Citadel. Perhaps that is one reason why Ashley sees how easily the Council would do the same to humans.

The reality is that nobody can really care about others until the same problems affect their own lives.

Since the knowledge of something is an affect on a person, this is an utterly meaningless statement that is functionally identical to 'people can't care about things they don't even know exist.'

Let's over-analyze everything, shall we?

"Well, if we know about something, then it affects our lives." I know my friend has diarrhea--does that affect my life? 

C'mon, use the big-boy parts of your brain, please.

[Pacifien]

The Big Nothing wrote...
Ashley accepts it, why can't you?

Ashley does not accept it or else the player who romances Ashley wouldn't have the opportunity to change her mind through conversation.

I view Ashley as simply ignorant of the wider universe. She has lived among humans all her life, her knowledge of aliens is based on what alien interaction has done for her family and what others may have told her about how aliens are. She's not had to work with aliens until she was assigned to the Normandy SR-1. And even then, what does she know about them? That a turian has led a devastating attack against humans and that the Council is unwilling to investigate without proof outside of human testimony. That a krogan, a species considered overly violent by most every other species, shot a human after he'd already surrendered. (Whether or not you felt Fist had it coming is beside the point, the krogan still shot him... well, if Wrex was with you.)

Everything someone learns about another culture without actually interacting with that culture is going to paint a stereotype. And you'd be surprised how racist someone sounds thanks to simple ignorance.

[Pacifien]

The Big Nothing: leave your perceived intellectual superiority over other posters out of your arguments and stick to discussing the topic at hand. Reacquaint yourself with the Site Rules of Conduct.

[Volus Warlord]

Ashley does not accept it or else the player who romances Ashley wouldn't have the opportunity to change her mind through conversation.

I view Ashley as simply ignorant of the wider universe. She has lived among humans all her life, her knowledge of aliens is based on what alien interaction has done for her family and what others may have told her about how aliens are. She's not had to work with aliens until she was assigned to the Normandy SR-1. And even then, what does she know about them? That a turian has led a devastating attack against humans and that the Council is unwilling to investigate without proof outside of human testimony. That a krogan, a species considered overly violent by most every other species, shot a human after he'd already surrendered. (Whether or not you felt Fist had it coming is beside the point, the krogan still shot him... well, if Wrex was with you.)

Everything someone learns about another culture without actually interacting with that culture is going to paint a stereotype. And you'd be surprised how racist someone sounds thanks to simple ignorance.

So your argument is that she is not knowing rather than prematurely judgemental. That's a fair argument.

As a counter-argument, she does not, at least off the bat, show any desire to learn about those nonhumans around her, to quell her own ignorance. So, she is not knowing, and she refuses to learn on top of that. Is that ignorance or is that prejudice?

Modifié par Volus Warlord, 10 janvier 2011 - 02:31 .

[James2912]

Pacifien wrote...

The Big Nothing wrote...
Ashley accepts it, why can't you?

Ashley does not accept it or else the player who romances Ashley wouldn't have the opportunity to change her mind through conversation.

I view Ashley as simply ignorant of the wider universe. She has lived among humans all her life, her knowledge of aliens is based on what alien interaction has done for her family and what others may have told her about how aliens are. She's not had to work with aliens until she was assigned to the Normandy SR-1. And even then, what does she know about them? That a turian has led a devastating attack against humans and that the Council is unwilling to investigate without proof outside of human testimony. That a krogan, a species considered overly violent by most every other species, shot a human after he'd already surrendered. (Whether or not you felt Fist had it coming is beside the point, the krogan still shot him... well, if Wrex was with you.)

Everything someone learns about another culture without actually interacting with that culture is going to paint a stereotype. And you'd be surprised how racist someone sounds thanks to simple ignorance.

Another very reasonable explanation, its a lot better then saying racist, because its a very loaded word that does not exactly describe Ashley. I mean seriously its been what 30 years, why would you trust strange aliens in a galaxy that likes to indulge in genocidal germ warfare, wars of extinction and a complete disregard for charity as in helping Quarrian refugees. She has a very reasonable point of view, even if it is wrong.

[Dean_the_Young]

Edit: Done away with so as to not get in the way of the thread.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 10 janvier 2011 - 02:38 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Dionkey wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Dionkey wrote...
All I am saying is that she sees no interest to help anyone else against a common evil then she has nothing to complain about.

When has she ever taken such a position?

Ash's position is that the Alliance shouldn't let itself become incapable of standing alone should it need to, and an extention of that is not compromising top-secret Alliance technology. She's never said or taken a position that there should be no cooperating with other races against a common threat, or even no cooperating at all.

The Normandy isn't top secret across the alliance, it was built with a joint turian-alliance team.

Parts of it are shared. Not necessarily all of it, nor would even Garrus necessarily be qualified to know even if the Turian Heirarchy did no. Wrex, Liara, and Tali have even less basis for clearance.

If Ashley can't integrate Alien crew members into her society without double checking her shoulders every 10 seconds then she has some pre conceived idea behind it.

Since she can and does, isn't this a pointless question?

[Pacifien]

Volus Warlord wrote...
As a counter-argument, she does not, at least off the bat, show any desire to learn about those nonhumans around her, to quell her own ignorance. So, she may not be knowing, and she refuses to learn on top of that. Is that ignorance or is that prejudice?

She's still on a human vessel, so the opportunity to learn about alien cultures is limited. In any case, there's no indication one way or the other that she wouldn't communicate with the other aliens on the ship, just that she felt it was a security risk to give them access to parts of the ship she felt were of importance. In any case, she reaches a point where she can work with a salarian STG fluidly without any consideration to their species.

In my experience, the withering of one's prejudices tends to be a passive event. Not many people want to think of themselves as ignorant, so actively looking to combat one's ignorance to other cultures is uncommon, I suspect.

Modifié par Pacifien, 10 janvier 2011 - 02:38 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Volus Warlord wrote...

So your argument is that she is not knowing rather than prematurely judgemental. That's a fair argument.

As a counter-argument, she does not, at least off the bat, show any desire to learn about those nonhumans around her, to quell her own ignorance. So, she is not knowing, and she refuses to learn on top of that. Is that ignorance or is that prejudice?

Where do you get a refusal to learn? She doesn't breathlessly go 'At last! An Alien!', but she's perfectly willing to talk to Wrex, Tali, Garrus, or even Liara in the elevators, nor is there any sign she refuses to interact with them.

[Dionkey]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Parts of it are shared. Not necessarily all of it, nor would even Garrus necessarily be qualified to know even if the Turian Heirarchy did no. Wrex, Liara, and Tali have even less basis for clearance.

The Normandy's system's that Garrus has viewed are hardly ground breaking, its not like he is snooping through internal ship documents.
Wrex is a bounty hunter and Tuchunka/Anyone else has literally no use for any of the information he can provide.
Liara, again is a scientist and has no access to classifed information.
Tali is a possible threat due to her being in the engine room but I don't see the Quarians using this to start war with the Alliance. Its all just baseless arguments saying that every Alien crew member could be a spy working for a government/organization looking to steal declassified information.

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Since she can and does, isn't this a pointless question?

I have not seen her once integrate well. If she had to take charge of a situation if need be she would put her baseless racist, and patriotic views ahead of Aliens in a heartbeat.

Modifié par Dionkey, 10 janvier 2011 - 02:43 .

[Pacifien]

Dionkey wrote...
I have not seen her once integrate well. If she had to take charge of a situation if need be she would put her baseless racist, and patriotic views ahead of Aliens in a heartbeat.

I'm curious to know what is said in the game that gives you this impression. (If it's the dog/bear analogy, I suggest reading the first page of this thread.)

Also, she integrates perfectly well with the salarian STG.

Also, do you even listen to her dialogue with Garrus, Wrex, Tali, or Liara when they're in the elevators?

Modifié par Pacifien, 10 janvier 2011 - 02:46 .

[The Big Nothing]

James2912 wrote...

Pacifien wrote...

The Big Nothing wrote...
Ashley accepts it, why can't you?

Ashley does not accept it or else the player who romances Ashley wouldn't have the opportunity to change her mind through conversation.

I view Ashley as simply ignorant of the wider universe. She has lived among humans all her life, her knowledge of aliens is based on what alien interaction has done for her family and what others may have told her about how aliens are. She's not had to work with aliens until she was assigned to the Normandy SR-1. And even then, what does she know about them? That a turian has led a devastating attack against humans and that the Council is unwilling to investigate without proof outside of human testimony. That a krogan, a species considered overly violent by most every other species, shot a human after he'd already surrendered. (Whether or not you felt Fist had it coming is beside the point, the krogan still shot him... well, if Wrex was with you.)

Everything someone learns about another culture without actually interacting with that culture is going to paint a stereotype. And you'd be surprised how racist someone sounds thanks to simple ignorance.

Another very reasonable explanation, its a lot better then saying racist, because its a very loaded word that does not exactly describe Ashley. I mean seriously its been what 30 years, why would you trust strange aliens in a galaxy that likes to indulge in genocidal germ warfare, wars of extinction and a complete disregard for charity as in helping Quarrian refugees. She has a very reasonable point of view, even if it is wrong.

Regardless of whether or not Ashley is romanced, she is quoted as saying, "Human or alien, we're all just animals."

So...

Ashley accepts it, why can't you?

[BTG_01]

In my mind, Ashley isn't a racist, she's just cynical. She doesn't attribute any devious characteristics to aliens, she just believes that every species will look after their own interests first and that humanity should do the same. Since species and nationality seem to be one in the same in Mass Effect, that seems like an opinion on politics, not biology.

[Azint]

It does come to light that the racism of some characters really is not racism.

Nationalism would be a much more accurate term for the distrust among many aliens to one another; if it's based on a political standpoint and such.

Modifié par Azint, 10 janvier 2011 - 02:52 .

[Dionkey]

Pacifien wrote...

Dionkey wrote...
I have not seen her once integrate well. If she had to take charge of a situation if need be she would put her baseless racist, and patriotic views ahead of Aliens in a heartbeat.

I'm curious to know what is said in the game that gives you this impression. (If it's the dog/bear analogy, I suggest reading the first page of this thread.)

Also, she integrates perfectly well with the salarian STG.

Also, do you even listen to her dialogue with Garrus, Wrex, Tali, or Liara when they're in the elevators?

Well sure because she is given direct orders. I am not saying she would disobey her surperiors, I just don't think her racism is safe if she were the one giving orders.

[Dean_the_Young]

Dionkey wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Parts of it are shared. Not necessarily all of it, nor would even Garrus necessarily be qualified to know even if the Turian Heirarchy did no. Wrex, Liara, and Tali have even less basis for clearance.

The Normandy's system's that Garrus has viewed are hardly ground breaking, its not like he is snooping through internal ship documents.

In the sense that he's standing in front of the mako in gameplay? Sure. In the sense that the Aliens apparently have free roam of the ship (despite never moving except to turn around and shift)? No. You can't assume that the place you find them in-game is the only place they ever are, or can be.

This applies to the other aliens as well as well.

I have not seen her once integrate well. If she had to take charge of a situation if need be she would put her baseless racist, and patriotic views ahead of Aliens in a heartbeat.

She brings up a valid security concern in private to her Commander. She accepts Shepard's ruling and never brings it up again, nor does she cause problems for any of the alien crew members. She doesn't mind fighting with them, and volunteers to be put under the command of an alien. That's pretty darn professional action by any standards, and certainly belies claims or racially (as opposed to nationally) motivated thinking.

[Pacifien]

Azint wrote...
It does come to light that the racism of some characters really is not racism.

Nationalism would be amuch more accurate term for the distrust among many aliens to one another; if it's based on a political standpoint and such.

Well, I did point out Grunt's comment about turians and Garrus and how that indicates his use of the term is nationalistic versus racial, but I kinda figured that comment would get lost in the debate about Ashley.

[Dean_the_Young]

The Big Nothing wrote...

Regardless of whether or not Ashley is romanced, she is quoted as saying, "Human or alien, we're all just animals."

So...

Ashley accepts it, why can't you?

Funny thing is, I don't think that's ever said in ME1.

And what 'it' are we talking about here? That we're all just animals?