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[Volus Warlord]

Pacifien wrote...


Well, I did point out Grunt's comment about turians and Garrus and how that indicates his use of the term is nationalistic versus racial, but I kinda figured that comment would get lost in the debate about Ashley.

Well, Ashley is hotter so her voice takes priority, haha.

[Pacifien]

Dionkey wrote...
Well sure because she is given direct orders. I am not saying she would disobey her surperiors, I just don't think her racism is safe if she were the one giving orders.

Well, actually, since you believe she's racist, and I don't, that's going to put a kink on debating it.

[Azint]

Pacifien wrote...

Well, I did point out Grunt's comment about turians and Garrus and how that indicates his use of the term is nationalistic versus racial, but I kinda figured that comment would get lost in the debate about Ashley.

The distrust is not centered on them being alien, it's that their loyalties would typically follow their own people. Krogan feature this pretty well with their clan system, as do quarians for being so tight-nit.

Among other races, it does divert to a much larger range of xenophobia.

[Dean_the_Young]

Dionkey wrote...

Well sure because she is given direct orders. I am not saying she would disobey her surperiors, I just don't think her racism is safe if she were the one giving orders.

She will volunteer for it. She is not some reluctant person doing it for duty and duty alone because she has to.

What orders do you think she will give as a racist and not as a professional? Will she try and kill the aliens under her command? Go out of her way to attack the Council? 

[Pacifien]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

The Big Nothing wrote...
Regardless of whether or not Ashley is romanced, she is quoted as saying, "Human or alien, we're all just animals."

So...

Ashley accepts it, why can't you?

Funny thing is, I don't think that's ever said in ME1.

And what 'it' are we talking about here? That we're all just animals?

It's a quote on the news in Mass Effect 2, likely making reference to Ashley's comment "I can't tell the animals from the aliens" in Mass Effect 1. She was apparently only supposed to make that comment around a keeper, but I guess she can say it at any point while walking through the Citadel.

I've seen people take some exception to the Rachni Queen because she looks like their worst bug nightmare, though. I'm not sure if they stop to think about how racist such a reaction is.

Modifié par Pacifien, 10 janvier 2011 - 03:00 .

[SandTrout]

In Mass Effect, Race and Nation are pretty much inseparable within council space, and this is a logical progression simply because once a species is introduced to the galactic community, all internal threats become minuscule in the face of the external ones. Internal conflicts arise or continue, but no sane member of a species would risk causing a collapse of the current order while alien fleets were potentially waiting at their doorstep with a big can of Extinction.

A key difference in Xeno-nationalism and our classic idea of racism is that the aliens will always be aliens to us, and us to them, and there is no real way to bridge that cultural gap and integrate into each others' society. By their very nature, we cannot interbreed and their capabilities, physical and mental, are inherently different than ours. It is not racism to state that dogs cannot read and write because they lack the physical and mental capabilities, it is simply a statement of their limitations as a species.

Russian can marry an American and produce children that can be more closely defined by where and how they were raised than their ethnicity. Culture, rather than race defines Nations within a species. On the galactic scale, each species that was the apex on their world, is now competing against other species for the scarce resources of the galaxy. Culturally, they must realize that they are one of many competing species in an enviroment rather than competing populations of the same species.

The closest that two alien species could ever come to an integrated culture would be a caste system, and one would inevitably be dominant over the other. Any other arrangement would inevitably result in the weaker species being pushed out or otherwise marginalized by the stronger, weather by economic or physical means. A major population unbalance between the two would cause civil unrest as the minority group felt threatened by this potential outcome, and fighting would continue until one group was dominant.

Ashley is not a racist, and I would go to say she has a clearer idea of historical precedents than most of those claiming that she is, and even my Paragon Shepard doesn't attempt to change her views on the subject. Even though we should cooperate with the Council when it serves us, or we cannot reasonably act in opposition to it, we should recognize that aliens will never be humans any more than humans will be Turian, Asari, Quarian, Volus, Salarian, Krogan, or Batarian. As integration is impossible, we must settle for survival through Coexistence or Displacement. If we choose Coexistence, we will be either dominant or dominated, and I for one would prefer to be dominant.

[Azint]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

She will volunteer for it. She is not some reluctant person doing it for duty and duty alone because she has to.

What orders do you think she will give as a racist and not as a professional? Will she try and kill the aliens under her command? Go out of her way to attack the Council? 

Again, it's because she is concerned for the well-being of the Alliance/humanity. Ashley clearly is not hostile or else she would have joined Cerberus. She even speaks out against Terra Firma, calling them out on their racism.

Modifié par Azint, 10 janvier 2011 - 03:02 .

[Dionkey]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Dionkey wrote...

Well sure because she is given direct orders. I am not saying she would disobey her surperiors, I just don't think her racism is safe if she were the one giving orders.

She will volunteer for it. She is not some reluctant person doing it for duty and duty alone because she has to.

What orders do you think she will give as a racist and not as a professional? Will she try and kill the aliens under her command? Go out of her way to attack the Council? 

No, if it were up to her she would weigh a humans life over 3 aliens for the fact that he/she is human. Thats all.
Also volunteering represents nothing if she is trying to impress her CO. I am not saying she would have a beat down in a back alley on an alien because he/she is alien, I am saying she has a massive human bias.

[Dean_the_Young]

Aye, I'm aware of it, but the funny-ness of possibly never actually being said. I've harbored speculation it might as well have been a propoganda invention, or a 'creative' mis-hearing of something else.





In so much that the Rachni Queen was my worst bug nightmare, it was because the Rachni WERE my worst bug nightmare: I got SO sick of freaking out as a Rachni would jump out from under a grate and lunge at me right as I turned around... and I got worried that the entire Benezia arena would be the next fight, with the Rachni Queen running around under the catwalks, tentacle-claw-things shooting acid and striking from above.

[Dean_the_Young]

Azint wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

She will volunteer for it. She is not some reluctant person doing it for duty and duty alone because she has to.

What orders do you think she will give as a racist and not as a professional? Will she try and kill the aliens under her command? Go out of her way to attack the Council? 

Again, it's because she is concerned for the well-being of the Alliance/humanity. Ashley clearly is not hostile or else she would have joined Cerberus. She even speaks out against Terra Firma, calling them out on their racism.

So how is this racist or bad or evidence of any unwillingness of cooperation.

[Azint]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

So how is this racist or bad or evidence of any unwillingness of cooperation.

Well, it is bad that she mistrusts others, but so many people mistake the intent and believe it to be simple racism when really it's a fear that humanity would be abandoned. Nationalism is not really good, but the basis for it is wildly different from racism.

[Dean_the_Young]

[quote]Dionkey wrote...

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

No, if it were up to her she would weigh a humans life over 3 aliens for the fact that he/she is human. Thats all.[/quote]Where, ever, in her character does she suggest or advocate that as a matter of policy?

She'll happily kill bad humans. She's great with helping good aliens.

[quote]
Also volunteering represents nothing if she is trying to impress her CO. [/quote]And are you saying that the reason she volunteered was that she was trying to impress Shepard?
[quote]
I am not saying she would have a beat down in a back alley on an alien because he/she is alien, I am saying she has a massive human bias.[/quote]What actions in the game has she done or pushed for strictly on the grounds of racial bias?

[Pacifien]

Dionkey wrote...
No, if it were up to her she would weigh a humans life over 3 aliens for the fact that he/she is human.

Where do you get the impression she would do this?

[Dean_the_Young]

Azint wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

So how is this racist or bad or evidence of any unwillingness of cooperation.

Well, it is bad that she mistrusts others, but so many people mistake the intent and believe it to be simple racism when really it's a fear that humanity would be abandoned. Nationalism is not really good, but the basis for it is wildly different from racism.

Indeed it isn't.  Nationalsim is as bad as what it drives you to do, and in Ashley's case that has been... not much. Skepticism and distrust, as well as being healthy and cautious, are in no way dependent on either previous -ism.

[Dionkey]

Pacifien wrote...

Dionkey wrote...
No, if it were up to her she would weigh a humans life over 3 aliens for the fact that he/she is human.

Where do you get the impression she would do this?

Her blatant mistrust of other Aliens maybe? You can't tell me with a straight face that if a squad of 10 turians was under fire and Kaiden (for arguments sake lets say he's still alive) was under fire and she could only choose one that she would sacrifice Kaiden for a squad of turians. Sure you could argue 1 biotic is more powerful than a fireteam of turians, but that is a really hard argument to push.

[Dean_the_Young]

Dionkey wrote...

Pacifien wrote...

Dionkey wrote...
No, if it were up to her she would weigh a humans life over 3 aliens for the fact that he/she is human.

Where do you get the impression she would do this?

Her blatant mistrust of other Aliens maybe? You can't tell me with a straight face that if a squad of 10 turians was under fire and Kaiden (for arguments sake lets say he's still alive) was under fire and she could only choose one that she would sacrifice Kaiden for a squad of turians. Sure you could argue 1 biotic is more powerful than a fireteam of turians, but that is a really hard argument to push.

And why wouldn't she, when her mistrust is based on race-blind security concerns? 

This is the same sort of concern that real-earth militaries have about 'foreign nationals' wandering in restricted areas, yet those militaries easily and often share solidarity with those same foreign allies, putting themselves at risk to help and support. Not wanting foreign allies in places they shouldn't be doesn't mean you'd leave them out to dry, nor does being willing to rescue a group at cost to your own mean that you'd be fine with the group you rescued walking around anywhere.

[didymos1120]

Dionkey wrote...
Well sure because she is given direct orders.

Incorrect:



And she doesn't volunteer to "impress". She volunteers because she thinks Shep needs Kaidan for the nuke.

Modifié par didymos1120, 10 janvier 2011 - 03:31 .

[James2912]

I think its just the nature of groups, I don't think the Council would sacrifice much of their people to help humans it will be interesting to see what the Council does when earth is invaded in ME3 I would not be surprised at all if there natural inclination would be to go for the every man for themselves route until Shepard convinces them otherwise. Just like the Geth are ignored mostly until they become a threat to the Council I think Ashley is a realist. There are very few martyrs out there. I mean most beings are not Ghandi for kheelahs sake!!!

[Dionkey]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
And why wouldn't she, when her mistrust is based on race-blind security concerns? 

This is the same sort of concern that real-earth militaries have about 'foreign nationals' wandering in restricted areas, yet those militaries easily and often share solidarity with those same foreign allies, putting themselves at risk to help and support. Not wanting foreign allies in places they shouldn't be doesn't mean you'd leave them out to dry, nor does being willing to rescue a group at cost to your own mean that you'd be fine with the group you rescued walking around anywhere.

I am not trying to shut down the man or something while giving foreigns all power, but she talks like she wants them under watchful eyes all the time. As Jacob said "We aren't going to get far if the Commander is expecting a shot in the back". Her concerns are unwarranted. The council saved the humans from the turians when they virtually knew nothing about them, thats got to stand for something. Maybe Ashley should become more accepting of other races before judging them off her family history.

[Sajuro]

 Hate to say thisPacifen, but you lost me at the whole Russian part since I think that is still similiar to being racist (since you can't change where you were born). But it is more of a race thing in my opinion since saying all the aliens are like their race is like saying all of the humans are the same which someone in ME2 points out.

[Pacifien]

Dionkey wrote...
Maybe Ashley should become more accepting of other races before judging them off her family history.

I get the impression you're as close-minded about Ashley as you say she is about aliens. My reason for starting this thread was thinking of how Ashley's perceptions were fueled by racism, nationalism, or simple ignorance. In any case, perceptions are not concrete, they can be influenced and changed. A romanced Ashley's views on aliens can be more actively altered, but even in spite of that, she shows willingness to cooperate with aliens and distaste for the human agenda as exhibited by Terra Firma. Her willingness to interact with aliens demonstrates to me a willingness to accept new perceptions.

[Volus Warlord]

Pacifien wrote...


I get the impression you're as close-minded about Ashley as you say she is about aliens. My reason for starting this thread was thinking of how Ashley's perceptions were fueled by racism, nationalism, or simple ignorance. In any case, perceptions are not concrete, they can be influenced and changed. A romanced Ashley's views on aliens can be more actively altered, but even in spite of that, she shows willingness to cooperate with aliens and distaste for the human agenda as exhibited by Terra Firma. Her willingness to interact with aliens demonstrates to me a willingness to accept new perceptions.

Sometimes people do change their perceptions... but it is far more likely that they will rationalize their old ones.

Assuming they will change is naive at best..

Points for idealism?

[Dionkey]

Pacifien wrote...

Dionkey wrote...
Maybe Ashley should become more accepting of other races before judging them off her family history.

I get the impression you're as close-minded about Ashley as you say she is about aliens. My reason for starting this thread was thinking of how Ashley's perceptions were fueled by racism, nationalism, or simple ignorance. In any case, perceptions are not concrete, they can be influenced and changed. A romanced Ashley's views on aliens can be more actively altered, but even in spite of that, she shows willingness to cooperate with aliens and distaste for the human agenda as exhibited by Terra Firma. Her willingness to interact with aliens demonstrates to me a willingness to accept new perceptions.

She has expressed her distaste for  Cerberus's agenda too and I would call them much more extreme than her. The fact still remains she has a distrust of aliens if you don't romance her. Not saying she isn't open to the idea but she is certainly biased. I suppose you could call me biased as well and I can accept that. As soon as she represents other species on a positive note (maybe in ME3) Ill be 100% there with her. For right now though her opinion a few extreme human organizations won't sway me from the fact she has massive paranoia of aliens.

[Pacifien]

Volus Warlord wrote...
Sometimes people do change their perceptions... but it is far more likely that they will rationalize their old ones.

Assuming they will change is naive at best..

Points for idealism?

Possibly naive if I didn't have personal experiences with it. But everyone brings their own experiences to how they interpret aspects of the game. That's likely what fuels discussion on these forums, no?

[James2912]

Dionkey wrote...

Pacifien wrote...

Dionkey wrote...
Maybe Ashley should become more accepting of other races before judging them off her family history.

I get the impression you're as close-minded about Ashley as you say she is about aliens. My reason for starting this thread was thinking of how Ashley's perceptions were fueled by racism, nationalism, or simple ignorance. In any case, perceptions are not concrete, they can be influenced and changed. A romanced Ashley's views on aliens can be more actively altered, but even in spite of that, she shows willingness to cooperate with aliens and distaste for the human agenda as exhibited by Terra Firma. Her willingness to interact with aliens demonstrates to me a willingness to accept new perceptions.

She has expressed her distaste for  Cerberus's agenda too and I would call them much more extreme than her. The fact still remains she has a distrust of aliens if you don't romance her. Not saying she isn't open to the idea but she is certainly biased. I suppose you could call me biased as well and I can accept that. As soon as she represents other species on a positive note (maybe in ME3) Ill be 100% there with her. For right now though her opinion a few extreme human organizations won't sway me from the fact she has massive paranoia of aliens.

Trust is something you earn its no different with aliens I would hope our government would have Ashleys headset rather than, blindly trusting aliens whose species have committed genocide in the past. 


And yes its fair if the council feels the same way about humans my extended point here is to say by the end of ME 1 the squad has earned her trust if she is reasonable however if she truly is racist and not just a pragmatist she will be making the same comments in ME3

Modifié par James2912, 10 janvier 2011 - 04:03 .