114 réponses à ce sujet

[Pacifien]

Sajuro wrote...
But it is more of a race thing in my opinion since saying all the aliens are like their race is like saying all of the humans are the same which someone in ME2 points out.

"I have to say, you're not what I expected."
"Right. Because you humans have a wide range of cultures and attitudes, but krogan all think and act exactly the same."

Incidentally, that was Kaidan putting his foot in his mouth that time, not Ashley.

[samurai crusade]

SandTrout wrote...

The closest that two alien species could ever come to an integrated culture would be a caste system, and one would inevitably be dominant over the other. Any other arrangement would inevitably result in the weaker species being pushed out or otherwise marginalized by the stronger, weather by economic or physical means. A major population unbalance between the two would cause civil unrest as the minority group felt threatened by this potential outcome, and fighting would continue until one group was dominant.

I disagree with you here.      To saw that two alien species could never culturally integrate is absurd.  It's no different than saying two races can't coexist.    Your caste system would only exist in rural areas... but in an urban environment cultures and races would coexist.     Sure their may be said "china town" or "vorcha ville"    but for the most part there is no reason why cultures can't meld together like any other city in the world.

[In Exile]

I always saw the issue as exclusive nationalism. The other species are, in every sense of the word, other nations on the political and social scene BUT they are exclusive re: citizenship. You cannot become an asari, turian or krogan. That's the closest parallel we can have, IMO.

I do not think race works as a parallel because in our world, race isn't the kind of exclusive thing we have with aliens. Our "races" can intermarry and become one people under one government. Aliens can't do this, with the exception of the asari sort of doing this but just making more asari, so you only have the psychological connection to the children.

[In Exile]

samurai crusade wrote...

I disagree with you here.      To saw that two alien species could never culturally integrate is absurd.  It's no different than saying two races can't coexist.    Your caste system would only exist in rural areas... but in an urban environment cultures and races would coexist.     Sure their may be said "china town" or "vorcha ville"    but for the most part there is no reason why cultures can't meld together like any other city in the world.

The problem is that if a young upstand man from "china town" heads over to "little italy" and finds true wuv <3 ™ then we can get a marital union. Although you can have interspecies sexual relations, you can't have familial relations in the same way, even through, for example, interspecies adoption.

[Pacifien]

In Exile wrote...
The problem is that if a young upstand man from "china town" heads over to "little italy" and finds true wuv <3 ™ then we can get a marital union. Although you can have interspecies sexual relations, you can't have familial relations in the same way, even through, for example, interspecies adoption.

Sure you can. Why not?

[In Exile]

Pacifien wrote...

Sure you can. Why not?

Because you can't have interspecies blending. So even a human and asari marry and "have" children, all the children would be asari. If we match up every Canadian with an opposite-sex parter in Japan and they each have two children, in a generation, we would have the same number of humans. If we match up every human with an asari and they each have two children, in a generation there will be no living human.

What this does is prevent the "divider" between groups to go away. A cultural identity is incredibly strong. But it can weaken. Speaking as a minority that has survived in part due to the strenght of our cultural identity, intermarriage is a concern for us re: maintaining our culture. But for the asari, or krogan... they can only be born asari or krogan. It's  basic fact of their biology.

Basicaly, the problem is "us or them". To the key to intergration is changing "them" to "us". But with different species every possible marker (except some cultural markers) are just never going to change to "us" from "them".

Modifié par In Exile, 10 janvier 2011 - 04:26 .

[Pacifien]

Yes, but the inability to have hybrid children does not mean that they can't marry. Nor does it mean that the parent of an adopted child would love them less. Nor is sex even necessary in the ME universe to create offspring. Think that's opening up a whole other issue for a different thread, though.

[Dionkey]

In Exile wrote...

Pacifien wrote...

Sure you can. Why not?

Because you can't have interspecies blending. So even a human and asari marry and "have" children, all the children would be asari. If we match up every Canadian with an opposite-sex parter in Japan and they each have two children, in a generation, we would have the same number of humans. If we match up every human with an asari and they each have two children, in a generation there will be no living human.

What this does is prevent the "divider" between groups to go away. A cultural identity is incredibly strong. But it can weaken. Speaking as a minority that has survived in part due to the strenght of our cultural identity, intermarriage is a concern for us re: maintaining our culture. But for the asari, or krogan... they can only be born asari or krogan. It's  basic fact of their biology.

Basicaly, the problem is "us or them". To the key to intergration is changing "them" to "us". But with different species every possible marker (except some cultural markers) are just never going to change to "us" from "them".

Wait so I am little confused here. Are you saying that you can't marry or the children won't like them because they aren't the same species?

[In Exile]

Pacifien wrote...

Yes, but the inability to have hybrid children does not mean that they can't marry. Nor does it mean that the parent of an adopted child would love them less. Nor is sex even necessary in the ME universe to create offspring. Think that's opening up a whole other issue for a different thread, though.

At the individual level? You're absolutely right. But we're talking about whether we should think about alien species more along our race analogies or our national analogies.

And I think a national identity is better, but it has to be the unchanging kind, because the major thing is that even over generations, there will always be this degree of biological separation that just no human metaphor can encompass because we are all one species.

[In Exile]

Dionkey wrote...
Wait so I am little confused here. Are you saying that you can't marry or the children won't like them because they aren't the same species?

All I'm saying is that if they marry and adopt, the children will either be one species or another. Integration is all about having a joint identity. But there's always going to be this degree of separation with aliens that doesn't exist with people. Over generations, humans could blend into a general 'human race'. Or we could invent new regional distinctions (like "American" and "French" instead of "Latin" and "Assyrian").

Whereas with alien species, these things are fixed by biology.

[James2912]

Going back to the original post I think the example of not wanting Russians running all over a United States Nuclear submarine would be a good example. 

[J4N3_M3]

I find it interesting though, that this whole racism thing is not only a typical humanity thing. All races throughout the game make one comment or the other towards another species. The quarians are looked down on, krogans and turians don't have much love for each other... I wonder why Ashley's comments are such a big deal compared to the other comments because personally I don't see any difference. After all, she IS learning. Even Navigator Pressly is.

[didymos1120]

J4N3_M3 wrote...
Even Navigator Pressly is.

Well, not anymore...

[BlackwindTheCommander]

Pacifien wrote...

Yes, but the inability to have hybrid children does not mean that they can't marry. Nor does it mean that the parent of an adopted child would love them less. Nor is sex even necessary in the ME universe to create offspring. Think that's opening up a whole other issue for a different thread, though.

I agree with this point completely Pacifien, and I have proof from within the Mass Effect canon to prove it further.

Lets talk about Matriarch Aethyta, better known as the bartender on Illium. She is the offspring of an Asari/Krogan coupling. They both loved her and each other despite being different species on her father's side. Sure the two ended up killing each other, but they made sure beforehand that they're daughter would still love who ever came out on top, as I'm sure they still loved each other even during they're battle.

Also a more obscure, but in my opinion even more valid example, is the Salarian and his Asari stepdaughter that stand at the Illium gift shop. The dialogue clearly portays a loving father-daugther realationship, despite the Asari not even being his offspring. She obviously cares for him, and is as supportive as any daughter would be. He love her, and he loves her mother.

Sorry if this post was alittle off the original topic, I just felt it was a valid one and some facts could help back it up.

Feel free to correct me if any of what i posted was wrong.

[marshalleck]

SandTrout wrote...

In Mass Effect, Race and Nation are pretty much inseparable within council space, and this is a logical progression simply because once a species is introduced to the galactic community, all internal threats become minuscule in the face of the external ones. Internal conflicts arise or continue, but no sane member of a species would risk causing a collapse of the current order while alien fleets were potentially waiting at their doorstep with a big can of Extinction.
A key difference in Xeno-nationalism and our classic idea of racism is that the aliens will always be aliens to us, and us to them, and there is no real way to bridge that cultural gap and integrate into each others' society. By their very nature, we cannot interbreed and their capabilities, physical and mental, are inherently different than ours. It is not racism to state that dogs cannot read and write because they lack the physical and mental capabilities, it is simply a statement of their limitations as a species.
Russian can marry an American and produce children that can be more closely defined by where and how they were raised than their ethnicity. Culture, rather than race defines Nations within a species. On the galactic scale, each species that was the apex on their world, is now competing against other species for the scarce resources of the galaxy. Culturally, they must realize that they are one of many competing species in an enviroment rather than competing populations of the same species.
The closest that two alien species could ever come to an integrated culture would be a caste system, and one would inevitably be dominant over the other. Any other arrangement would inevitably result in the weaker species being pushed out or otherwise marginalized by the stronger, weather by economic or physical means. A major population unbalance between the two would cause civil unrest as the minority group felt threatened by this potential outcome, and fighting would continue until one group was dominant.
Ashley is not a racist, and I would go to say she has a clearer idea of historical precedents than most of those claiming that she is, and even my Paragon Shepard doesn't attempt to change her views on the subject. Even though we should cooperate with the Council when it serves us, or we cannot reasonably act in opposition to it, we should recognize that aliens will never be humans any more than humans will be Turian, Asari, Quarian, Volus, Salarian, Krogan, or Batarian. As integration is impossible, we must settle for survival through Coexistence or Displacement. If we choose Coexistence, we will be either dominant or dominated, and I for one would prefer to be dominant.

Nice post. Brilliantly sums up the non-racist, pro-human perspective that I think Cerberus should have presented, rather than the mustache-twirling band of Dr. Evil miscreants they actually did.

In fact I would have loved to have a dialogue back and forth with TIM where he made precisely these arguments. Perhaps in ME3?

Modifié par marshalleck, 10 janvier 2011 - 09:04 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Dionkey wrote...

I am not trying to shut down the man or something while giving foreigns all power, but she talks like she wants them under watchful eyes all the time. As Jacob said "We aren't going to get far if the Commander is expecting a shot in the back". Her concerns are unwarranted.

Her concerns are warranted. Espionage is a very real and plausible threat. That the people involved (Shepard's team) wouldn't conduct espionage doesn't invalidate the plausibility that they could, and the judgement that they, as individuals, wouldn't is something that takes far more time to credibly build than the time Shepard meeting them and allowing them free reign on the ship on the ship.

Supervision when it restricted areas isn't a police state, nor is it hostile racism. It'd be just as appropriate if an un-cleared Alliance civie came aboarrd.

The council saved the humans from the turians when they virtually knew nothing about them, thats got to stand for something.

That they restrained the Turians for their own benefit, fearing the costs a galactic-scale war? 

The Council isn't malevolent, and Ash is the first to say that, but they weren't going to fall on the Turian sword for Humanity's benefit then if negotiations had broken down, and they won't do it now either. It's a point only reinforced in both games when Humanity, when it does seek help for being attacked, is completely refused by the Council.

[General User]

I think it remains to be seen just how dedicated to the whole “xeno-nationalism” thing humanity really is. I mean, racial division IS official Citadel Council policy, and dividing people by species is understandable (if far from complementary) on a very base and guttural level. 
 
In that vein, that humanity, the Systems Alliance, and her colonies would adopt xeno-nationalism at the outset of humanity’s entry onto the galactic stage is itself understandable. But honestly, I think the better angels of human nature will prevail over time.
 
I think the real test for humanity is going to be when aliens start joining human militaries, be it the Systems Alliance Navy/Marines or even local colonial militias. The only other military that has more than one race in it is the turians’, with their client race auxiliaries. But these are segregated units. I honestly don’t see humanity doing the same thing. If an asari, born and raised on Elysium wants to join the military I think she’ll be put in uniform right alongside her human neighbor.
 
So, relating back to Ashley, if it was not a random asari (or the daughter of Saren’s chief ally, I’m just sayin’…) but an Alliance officer who happened to be asari who had “free reign” of the ship, I don’t think Ash would have even the slightest problem with that. Sisters-in-arms so to speak.

[J4N3_M3]

marshalleck wrote...

SandTrout wrote...

*epic post is epic snip*

Nice post. Brilliantly sums up the non-racist, pro-human perspective that I think Cerberus should have presented, rather than the mustache-twirling band of Dr. Evil miscreants they actually did.

In fact I would have loved to have a dialogue back and forth with TIM where he made precisely these arguments. Perhaps in ME3?

I fully agree. on both, SandTrout's post and mashalleck's post.

[Dean_the_Young]

Paragon route is that sort of 'not xeno-national.' To twist that analogy once again, at the Citadel Paragon Shepard can show that sometimes the human will attack the bear for the dog.



It isn't something the Council has yet reciprocated, or showed signs of reciprocating. And it's certainly a higher standard than the Council has lived up to, past and present. But, however minor that view and however dependent it was on the circumstances of Shepard being on the spot, Humanity did break the mold.

[samurai crusade]

In Exile wrote...

samurai crusade wrote...

I disagree with you here.      To saw that two alien species could never culturally integrate is absurd.  It's no different than saying two races can't coexist.    Your caste system would only exist in rural areas... but in an urban environment cultures and races would coexist.     Sure their may be said "china town" or "vorcha ville"    but for the most part there is no reason why cultures can't meld together like any other city in the world.

The problem is that if a young upstand man from "china town" heads over to "little italy" and finds true wuv <3 ™ then we can get a marital union. Although you can have interspecies sexual relations, you can't have familial relations in the same way, even through, for example, interspecies adoption.

Touche.  But I think from an economic standpoint, it's possible to have coexisting "races" of aliens.    While the inability to interbreed does create a social caste of sorts.... it falls very similar to current stigma of marriage rights and what it means to have children.          So if said culture... say Eden Prime allowed a Krogan family to raise a human child... and said culture was fine with that.... then the society would have no problems integrating Krogans as full-fleged citizens.                    Now Sports! that's another matter!     Soon they'd have all sorts of rules... how many Krogans can be on your futball team!  Or could you image a Krogan as an enforcer in Hockey!        In the ME universe however... each planet or colony is reletively independent and is influenced by it's own geography, economic sphere, proximity to other colonies, etc....   So social stigmas and what is acceptable becomes blurred over time and space.    No different than Southern culture and Midwestern culture in the United States.

[Badpie]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

That's where she lost me. She was perfectly justified in suggesting that any non-alliance personnel, human or otherwise (it just so happened that there were no human non-alliance personnel at the time), should not have full access to the brand new advanced prototype warship. It was the alien/dog thing that got me. Though in fairness to Ashely, she seems more xenophobic than racist in the broader scheme, and she can be brought around. I still find her abrasive and off-putting though.

The dog in the analogy was Humanity.  The Owner was the Council. She never equated aliens to animals.

I just felt like quoting this again because not a lot of people get that.  Ash also says "I don't think we should turn down allies.  I just don't think we should bet everything on them staying allies."  To me this isn't racist or xenophobic.  To me this is pragmatism.  She makes a point of saying that humanity has to be self sufficient as well just in case we end up being the dog in her analogy.

I'm still not sure where everyone gets the Ash is racist idea since every time racism is brought up in the game she is the most vocal opponent of its idiocy.

[Xilizhra]

I purposely stick with racism because "racism" conjures up a stronger emotional response to the character than "speciesism."

And this is precisely why you should say "speciesism." It brings less emotional fogging to the issue.

[Pacifien]

Xilizhra wrote...

I purposely stick with racism because "racism" conjures up a stronger emotional response to the character than "speciesism."

And this is precisely why you should say "speciesism." It brings less emotional fogging to the issue.

But then I cannot challenge your perceptions. It's the art of debate.

[Xilizhra]

The art of debate involves deliberately misusing words?

[Pacifien]

Xilizhra wrote...
The art of debate involves deliberately misusing words?

sighs

If that's what it takes, I suppose.

Especially considering the purpose of the post was to judge a person's emotional response to using specific terms such as racism versus nationalism.

Modifié par Pacifien, 10 janvier 2011 - 08:51 .