114 réponses à ce sujet

[CroGamer002]

I never considered Ashley to be racist.

I think she just mistrusts them.



Also do I have to mention how she talked with Terra Firma leader?

[maxernst]

I don't think the race/nation distinction is meaningful in this context because we don't have nations organzied across species lines or multiple nations of the same species. I think she is racist (speciesist would be more accurate), but that's hardly surprising or particularly censurable. She's certainly no more racist (probably less so) than the council, which restricts full membership in the interstellar community to all races but three (or four in ME2). Part of the reason my canon Shepard spared the Rachni queen was on the thought that humanity might need allies if the Council ever turned on them as they did the Krogan and Rachni.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

I purposely stick with racism because "racism" conjures up a stronger emotional response to the character than "speciesism."

And this is precisely why you should say "speciesism." It brings less emotional fogging to the issue.

But in the context of Mass Effect, 'speciesism' is synonymous with our use of 'racism': judging someone strictly because of their race (species). Aliens are, after all, mainly humans with funny costumes, and the differences between them and us are analogous to the perceived differences between people on account of ethnicity.

[James2912]

Theres stereotyping and there is realism, describing an alien cultures traits in a realistic way is just pragmatic and natural the human mind automatically categorizes so its just the way people think. Apparently aliens aren't so different.

Moving on:

If you are an American civilian you are not going to be able to walk around a US Nuclear submarine.why would you allow civilians of a foreign country do so?

[didymos1120]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
But in the context of Mass Effect, 'speciesism' is synonymous with our use of 'racism': judging someone strictly because of their race (species). Aliens are, after all, mainly humans with funny costumes, and the differences between them and us are analogous to the perceived differences between people on account of ethnicity.

Besides which, race has pretty much always had "species/sub-species" as one its senses and it's even still used that way in some sub-fields of biology (botany, mainly but it occurs in zoological fields on occassion).  Then there's the fact that "speciesism" is just plain clumsy, both in the sense of not being very euphonious and being a bit ugly orthographically.  Finally, it ignores the way speciesism has actually been used most of the time.  Here's the OED definition, for example:

Discrimination against or exploitation of certain animal species by human beings, based on an assumption of mankind's superiority.

In the ME-verse, this would, arguably though still rather debatably, only apply to the Vorcha, if we're talking, well, talking species.  It would definitely apply to the way varren are used.  Or using pyjak for live-fire exercises.

Modifié par didymos1120, 10 janvier 2011 - 10:32 .

[CroGamer002]

Is it wrong for me to bump your thread Pacifen?

Modifié par Mesina2, 26 février 2011 - 08:37 .

[vkt62]

This is a really tricky situation though. If a faction of a species was breaking away, the new faction would still be represented by the same representative even if they did not want to deal with him. It is similar to a situation where people from a state in a particular country didn't get along, they would not be able to form their own country and at best get a separate state unless things got really bad.

[KenKenpachi]

Ashley is not racist at all, xenophobic yes.

Race is varaitions within a species or a related sub-species thats still alike enough to allow for breeding. Does Ashley ever go I don't like black people, or calls any of the human crew wet-backs, honkies, ******'s, or such? Not that I've seen thus not a racist.

She however hates/distrusts other species, which though those species are like us in many ways still are well devided from the racial list .Even the Asari as they can't breed with us in the traditional sense. It would be like if we found out Mars was home to an advanced life form and we had a nice little war with them then had peace. Even though we might not like them and have alot in common if I went out and punched a Martian in the face and said "GO BACK TO YOUR RED ROCK YOU ALIEN SCUM!" that is not racisim as I share no racial characteristics save being bipidal. It is xenophobia as I hate and destrust him or her for not being human. Racisim would be if I hated you for not being black or white. Or in the case of a Turian for not being of my clan if you were a fellow Turian. Or in the case of the Asari, how we've seen public racisim based on ones heritage.

In a manner xenophobia is healthy as its a defense oragnisim to keep a species in propagation with its own racial groups. For most races such as a Turian, Quarian, Krogan, Salarian, hell all of them, they can't mix with each other at all, the only exception being an Asari, however it is also counter productive, as it only produces more Asari, not a hybred, or the species of the other parent. While other may indeed have feelings for others not of there own species, they simply can't recover populations via it, and thus while they may have respect many seem to stick with there own species so they can have there own young. To me xenophobia seems a defense mechanism, racisim is just stupidity.

In Human Alien relations short of STD's unless the racial characteristics are VERY much alike nothing besides emotional fullfillment will happen.

With a human on another sex human relation happens, reguardless of skin color, region, dialect, religion, climate, or social standing, a child can result on the first attempt. So thus Racisim is pointless, xenophobia is a counter for emotional emballance to ensure survival. Though it can be highly destructive.

Not that I'm saying yeah be xenophobic.

[Aedan_Cousland]

I think the reason Ashley is called a racist is because of the line she utters on the Citadel: I can't tell the aliens from the animals.

That would be fairly offensive and is going beyond just saying, "Hey, I'm not crazy about the Turians because of what they did on Shanxi." Comparing the aliens to animals on the surface would seem to imply that she doesn't believe they are fellow sapients, and as such are not deserving of the same rights and freedoms as humans.

I don't believe that is the case with Ashley but the comment would be in extremely poor judgement, since it implies it. In human history for example slavery was justified by some on the basis that according to them, Africans were a lesser form of human.

Modifié par Aedan_Cousland, 27 février 2011 - 06:20 .

[Jzadek72]

HopHazzard wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

Well, Ashley made it clear she was talking about race/species with her idea of sacrificing your dog to save yourself from a bear.

That's where she lost me. She was perfectly justified in suggesting that any non-alliance personnel, human or otherwise (it just so happened that there were no human non-alliance personnel at the time), should not have full access to the brand new advanced prototype warship. It was the alien/dog thing that got me.

I interpreted the humans as the dogs in the metaphor - she didn't trust aliens, because, if it came to it, the council would sic the humans on the "bear" .

[Dean_the_Young]

Uh, yeah. That's explicitly what the analogy was referring to: that the Council wasn't malicious, but that it also wouldn't put itself in peril for Humanity's sake, any more than a human would die for his dog.

Ashley doesn't have any history or demonstration of hating aliens, or of having any irrational fear of them. She's cautious and pragmatic, yes, but the basis for that caution would apply to any inter-national concerns today. Anyone who's non-Alliance military and is on the Normandy does represent a potential secuirty risk... especially in light of how sudden and dubious their addition to the team is from a security standpoint. Garrus has a reliable career history, and presumably a security clearance, but Wrex? Tali? Liara?

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 28 février 2011 - 04:46 .

[Moiaussi]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

Is it wrong for me to bump your thread Pacifen?

A little late to ask that question, don't you think?

In any case, in Mass Effect nations seem to be based primarily on species. Though it would be interesting to go back and see what things were like during the turian Unification War or to see the human colonies break away from Earth. We saw a little bit of this in ME2 with Horizon.

I think it was a little like asking 'Can I ask a question?'

I think I mentioned this earlier in the thread, but nations are primarily based on species because that is simply where people live and were born. It is not like there is likely to be any mass emigration from Turian space into Asari, for example, without there being a major war as the cause. Who knows? Maybe the reapers will end up being that kind of catalyst

Meanwhile, new regions, such as the Terminus systems are much more varied. One of the things I was hoping for in ME2 and disappointed about was that uniting the Terminus systems (either via paragon diplomacy or renegade military action) would have made a great part 2. It would still have related to the over all story arc by way of clearing off a major loose end from ME1 (the risk of war with the pirates in the region) and there could have been reaper involvement by way of indoctrinated agents and/or the first hints of arrival.

But we got the collectors instead...... ah well.....

A Terminus based power would have been interesting in that it would have been a mixed race population., which would have played off in interesting ways against the pre-existing racially 'pure' empires .

[Wulfram]

Moiaussi wrote...

I think I mentioned this earlier in the thread, but nations are primarily based on species because that is simply where people live and were born. It is not like there is likely to be any mass emigration from Turian space into Asari, for example, without there being a major war as the cause. Who knows? Maybe the reapers will end up being that kind of catalyst

Unless the Asari go abroad to breed, there should be quite a few non-Asari in their space

[Moiaussi]

Wulfram wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

I think I mentioned this earlier in the thread, but nations are primarily based on species because that is simply where people live and were born. It is not like there is likely to be any mass emigration from Turian space into Asari, for example, without there being a major war as the cause. Who knows? Maybe the reapers will end up being that kind of catalyst

Unless the Asari go abroad to breed, there should be quite a few non-Asari in their space

Asari seem to live nigh forever, so they don't need to breed often. It does beg the question though why they would be so resistant to human settlements in Asari space.....

The whole taboo about breeding with other Asari seems strange in its own right. Presumably the had to until they met the Salarians, then they would have only had the Salarians....