27 réponses à ce sujet

[bcooper56]

I tried going archery when da first came out i found it best worst for
dps. Has it changed? I only tried  it a 1.0 so not sure if its been
improved.


Im making a dalish elf so im thinking of choosing it since you  start with bow any way.

Modifié par bcooper56, 10 janvier 2011 - 08:02 .

[Marvin_Arnold]

 

[bcooper56]

Marvin_Arnold wrote...

 

?

[Marvin_Arnold]

bcooper56 wrote...

Marvin_Arnold wrote...

 

?

Sorry, at first there was only an empty post, so I kept in the spirit...

Seriously, archery and dual wield are just two different things. The advantage of archery is not the high damage (which comes late in the game), but that it is a ranged attack, like spells. So you can get distant enemies that you won't be able to get (or at least not that fast) as a melee fighter. And you can get Scattershot, which is a nice crowd control attack. (but draws heavy aggression from enemies, so be careful) Be sure to equip Rapid Aim equipment as much as possible, and you can get high DPS with an archer. But get some melee abilities (preferably dual-wield, as, like archery, they are Dexterity-based) for close combat as well...

[Elhanan]

I enjoy playing both as a hybrid. The top tier of both Archery and DW talents; then choose faves from there.

[Marvin_Arnold]

Basically, that's the way I do it too.

[USArmyParatrooper]

Elhanan wrote...

I enjoy playing both as a hybrid. The top tier of both Archery and DW talents; then choose faves from there.

Unfortunately that can be quite challenging for rogues. Rogues are freaking awesome when they're built up, but getting them there requires tons of Talent points.

Right from the get go you have the Below the Belt Tree, Deft Hands Tree and Stealth Tree. And then factor trees for Specializations. And then you still need to spend points on your weapon specialty.

If anyone knows a trick for adequately building up two weapons specialties, I'd love to hear it.

[Elhanan]

USArmyParatrooper wrote...

Elhanan wrote...

I enjoy playing both as a hybrid. The top tier of both Archery and DW talents; then choose faves from there.

Unfortunately that can be quite challenging for rogues. Rogues are freaking awesome when they're built up, but getting them there requires tons of Talent points.

Right from the get go you have the Below the Belt Tree, Deft Hands Tree and Stealth Tree. And then factor trees for Specializations. And then you still need to spend points on your weapon specialty.

If anyone knows a trick for adequately building up two weapons specialties, I'd love to hear it.

Short version: I skip the entire Lethality tree, and get STR up to 38.

Longer version: Get STR up to 20 ASAP to wear the Battledress DLC, then raise it to 38 along with max DEX, Cunning to 30, Will to 20-30, Mgc & CON left as base.

Talents: Dirty Fighting, Deft Hands, Stealth,  Melee Archer, and DW Training are generally my first selections, and I raise them as desired. Stealth is my least priorityfor increase as I will be armored well enough, and I skip Feign Death altogether. The more difficult choice is whether to focus on Archer or DW selections, but generally I make Momentum a quick add and allow archery to become less important.

[sleepingdragon93]

If you want to hack and slash your way through the game, go for duel wield. It's like Marvin_Arnold said, they're two way different things. Personally, I've never made my warden an archer just because I don't like depending on my party to do all the work. Keep that in mind. Archers are pretty weak since you should spend talent points on dexterity, and low strength keeps you from wearing a lot of the heavier armors. If you wanna go archer, plan on making your other party members as tough as they can go. If you wanna go dps duel wield, count on the opposite. Duel wield is unstoppable if you can upgrade your character right

[Zahe]

I'd argue that archers are more self-sufficient then DWers, for the simple fact that utility is everything.

DW got a higher cap for their DPS, but it easily fluctuates due to the fact that they have to be in melee. Archers got a lower optimal DPS but way more utility and a much easier time reaching that DPS. The ability to quickly take out high priority targets as an archer is often overlooked, it makes all the difference in the world. As a matter of fact, my archer play-through was one of the easiest one I had and I got pretty great results as well. Around 60% damage done overall and the fights I had to (ab)use potions were few, under five in total.

Modifié par Zahe, 13 janvier 2011 - 09:37 .

[termokanden]

I don't agree that it's any kind of a problem having to move to melee range. If you play smart, you won't have to run for 20 minutes between every two kills. In fact, mostly enemies will be so close that you just keep on stabbing without wasting time at all.

[Zahe]

The key word is most. Most enemies aren't a threat either, but once in a while there is a mage 40 yards away that blasts your party to pieces in a matter of seconds. Having to be in melee is a disadvantage, period. The only thing one can argue about is how much, which greatly fluctuates depending on the enemies layout and what kind of foes you are facing.

Modifié par Zahe, 14 janvier 2011 - 02:17 .

[termokanden]

As a rogue you can just start out in stealth and kill that dangerous mage first. The problem is when there are two of them far apart. I don't remember any fights like that. I'm sure there are some, but you can't say it happens often.

I also think melee rogues have an advantage in taking out mages in fact. You have two very quick melee stuns AND a knockdown effect. So basically you can "stunlock" them. Archers have slower special attacks.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with archers by the way, and it's hard to deny they do insane damage in Awakening. In Origins I like to have one in my party just for low-maintenance damage-dealing plus Scattershot.

Modifié par termokanden, 14 janvier 2011 - 02:47 .

[Zahe]

It is true that in many cases DW aren't at a noticeable disadvantage because they are melee based, but my point being is that the few fights they are penalized in generally are some of the harder fights in the game. Dragons, split mages and so forth.

[termokanden]

You just make it sound like it's a big disadvantage, which it isn't. Ah I'll leave it alone now.

Point is, I thoroughly enjoyed my melee rogues and never felt that I was at a particular disadvantage, and so I did not recognize what I've seen now in a couple of threads here.

Modifié par termokanden, 14 janvier 2011 - 03:27 .

[soteria]

USArmyParatrooper wrote...

Unfortunately that can be quite challenging for rogues. Rogues are freaking awesome when they're built up, but getting them there requires tons of Talent points.

Off-topic, but I think it's unfortunate warriors aren't the same way. It's challenging and interesting building a rogue because they have a lot of valuable talents to choose among. Warriors just don't--they can realistically get everything and don't really have to make choices except in build order (and even that is regulated by level and stat requirements).

termokanden wrote...

As a rogue you can just start out in stealth and kill that dangerous mage first. The problem is when there are two of them far apart. I don't remember any fights like that. I'm sure there are some, but you can't say it happens often.

Urn of the Sacred Ashes questline, up in the mountain with the dragon cult. In some rooms you can trigger the next group while you're still in combat because of the way the drakes spawn and traps impede you. Arguably, an archer rogue could combat stealth into an AoS kill for some of those long shots faster and more efficiently than a DW rogue could get over there. That's assuming he still has stamina, of course.

Zahe wrote...

It is true that in many cases DW aren't at a noticeable disadvantage
because they are melee based, but my point being is that the few fights
they are penalized in generally are some of the harder fights in the
game. Dragons, split mages and so forth.

While it is true that using ranged weapons is technically in advantage in that it's safer and you have longer reach (ie, more time on target), you're greatly exaggerating the advantage actually taking archery talents gives you.  The DW rogue can easily switch to a bow and deal exactly the same damage as the dedicated archer rogue in those situations.  Archery talents give minimal to no benefit in a lot of those situations.  Sure, with split mages the archer could AoS one mage and switch quickly, but nothing is stopping the DW rogue from assassinating one mage in roughly the same timeframe and switching to a bow--if he wanted to.

Modifié par soteria, 14 janvier 2011 - 04:28 .

[Last Darkness]

sure, why not



Archery like some other niche builds requires alot of things coming together at once. Stats, Gear, Skills, Buffs etc.

[Zy-El]

Statistically, yes, archers do less damage than melee rogues. But you have to take into account the battle situation.

There are a few instances in which I've used my Rogue and switched to a bow to pick off enemies from long range. The AI is so stupid in this game. If I kill a darkspawn from long range, the other darkspawn around him don't notice it. So, my rogue archer steps up, kills a darkspawn. MOve up a couple steps more, kill another darkspawn - rinse and repeat.

There is also the melee targetting glitch where you cannot hit a target that is moving by you using a melee weapon. However, if you are using a bow, you will be able to peg those moving targets - even if they run behind an obstacle after the arrow is released. I've seen my arrows bend in mid-flight to home in on a moving target. Oh yeah, my arrows have heat-seeking ability!!! This really comes in handy during those big battles where there is a lag before a target dies - like Denerim Gates.

[Last Darkness]

Dont forget theres often a crowding issue if you have more then 2 melee charactors. Ranged via Archery or Magic is very useful.

[Zy-El]

It bothers me that you can't use Poison with arrows but you can with a blade in melee combat, no less. I would think that it'd be easier to envenom your arrowtips than a blade that you have to re-apply the poison after each time you connect.

[Last Darkness]

Zy-El wrote...

It bothers me that you can't use Poison with arrows but you can with a blade in melee combat, no less. I would think that it'd be easier to envenom your arrowtips than a blade that you have to re-apply the poison after each time you connect.

I think theres a workaround like there is to make berserk give arrows +8 damage.  Also theres probably a mod that allows bows to be poisoned.

[abaris]

termokanden wrote...

As a rogue you can just start out in stealth and kill that dangerous mage first. The problem is when there are two of them far apart. I don't remember any fights like that. I'm sure there are some, but you can't say it happens often.

Several mages apart happens pretty often. I daresay more often than single mages.

And they can be a real pain to get rid off, since in one or two instances, they're also protected by traps.

[soteria]

One of the nice things about being a rogue is the ability to disable traps while stealthed. That's actually one of the worst arguments you could make for an archer, because the melee rogue is much more likely to detect and disarm traps for the entire party by stealthing ahead. The archer rogue is meanwhile sitting in the back while his party runs over the undetected traps--or stealthing forward and back, hardly an example of efficiency.

Besides which, I'm not really sold on this idea that the archer is inherently better at killing two mages than the backstabber--and this is assuming you're relying on a single character to kill the mages in succession rather than using the whole party to gank both mages simultaneously (that is, the way it really should be done). I'm not saying ranged combat doesn't have some advantages--Zy-El outlined some of them--but those aren't really an argument for taking Archery talents.

[USArmyParatrooper]

abaris wrote...

termokanden wrote...

As a rogue you can just start out in stealth and kill that dangerous mage first. The problem is when there are two of them far apart. I don't remember any fights like that. I'm sure there are some, but you can't say it happens often.

Several mages apart happens pretty often. I daresay more often than single mages.

And they can be a real pain to get rid off, since in one or two instances, they're also protected by traps.

I agree with soteria that an archer isn't necessarily better at dealing with that, but I agree with you that two mages is pretty common, and they can be a real pain in the arse. What makes matters worse is they're more than happy to nuke the crap out of their own guys, and that doesn't even help you because in most fights you're severely outnumbered.

[Last Darkness]

Arrow of Slaying one Mage, Mana Clash the other.



In the words of Emeril " BAM " done