17177 réponses à ce sujet

[Face of Evil]

Sharn01 wrote...

You have absolutely no concept of the power of a nuclear weapon if you are comparing it to blood magic.

It's just a metaphor. In any case, there are some very good historical and practical reasons for the Dalish not to use blood magic, which I specified in my previous posts.

Taritu wrote...

There may be times when blood magic is "necessary", but if I lived in Thedas, I wouldn't trust anyone who wanted that power for themselves. The Templars aren't all evil, the fear of blood magic is entirely reasonable based on what it can do and on actual recorded history. The problem is that the Templars control drives mages to blood magic to escape (as seen in the Tower), and thus causes what it is meant to stop.

True, and I think it's starting to reach the point where the Chantry must recognize that the current system is starting to create problems, not hinder them. I don't think the mages can break away entirely from Chantry control, but there do need to be changes.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 31 janvier 2011 - 04:41 .

[Sharn01]

Going to make this my last post here since we should start a new thread or PM if we want to continue from here on out, it will just take it off topic to much otherwise.

I dont understand your reasoning, refusing to use a weapon because someone used a weapon against you in the past is illogical.  When you are fighting for your very survival you use what is available to you.  The chantry already wants to wipe out the dailish and their keepers, the only reason they cant make an army is because the dailish split up into small clans and never stay in one place long enough for an army to march on them.  The only rarely gather in large numbers, and only the dailish know when and where that will take place.

[tmp7704]

Sharn01 wrote...

The dailish have been beaten down by humans for centuries and cannot live in one place for long without an army being built to come slaughter them.

This dramatic statement seems to be directly contradicted by DAO epilogue one can get.

[moilami]

Face of Evil wrote...

Sharn01 wrote...

Neither of which have anything at all to do with blood magic.  Thats like saying guns are inherently evil because an evil person uses it to murder someone.

Blood magic are effectively the equivalent of nuclear weapons in Thedas. Nuclear bombs aren't evil, but we don't distribute them freely to the citizenry, do we?

Sharn01 wrote...

The dailish have been beaten down by humans for centuries and cannot live in one place for long without an army being built to come slaughter them.  Turning your back on magic which can increase your chances for survival is exactly the opposite of what I think they would do.

Using blood magic would only decrease their chances of survival. As it stands, the Chantry isn't crazy about the Dalish, what with them worshipping heathen gods and letting apostates run their clans. If the Dalish start freely using blood magic, that's all the Chantry needs to send an army of templars after them.

This was a good point, I suspect they would use blood magic in secret. They are suspicious of strangers and would certainly not show they do blood magic. Also the chief knew very powerful blood magic and certainly he would teach lesser blood magic to the clan. Like Sharn said, survival is what matters in primitive conditions. There is no time to discuss ethics like in tea rooms regarding can some magic be used.


Edit: "If it works, it is good enough." -- Old Dalish Clan Saying.

Modifié par moilami, 31 janvier 2011 - 05:15 .

[Sharn01]

tmp7704 wrote...

Sharn01 wrote...

The dailish have been beaten down by humans for centuries and cannot live in one place for long without an army being built to come slaughter them.

This dramatic statement seems to be directly contradicted by DAO epilogue one can get.

One more then,

Lets see how long it lasts before we say things have changed, not to mention Gaider himself has said he will be tossing out the epilogues that dont fit with the writers future plans for DA.

[tmp7704]

Sharn01 wrote...

Lets see how long it lasts before we say things have changed, not to mention Gaider himself has said he will be tossing out the epilogues that dont fit with the writers future plans for DA.

It appears to last long enough there's no mention of such slaughter happening further down the road. Which, considering things like trouble in the Alienage few years later do get a mention, makes it sound pretty stable.

Also, there isn't exactly a track record of the Dalish continually getting slaughered by armies whenever they try to settle anywhere, is there? As far as i can tell they kind of stopped trying to build settlements after the Dales. So the whole slaughter thing that'd inevitably happen is very much a conjecture and as such it's hard to say whether things actually have to change at all.

[Face of Evil]

Sharn01 wrote...

I dont understand your reasoning, refusing to use a weapon because someone used a weapon against you in the past is illogical.  When you are fighting for your very survival you use what is available to you.  The chantry already wants to wipe out the dailish and their keepers, the only reason they cant make an army is because the dailish split up into small clans and never stay in one place long enough for an army to march on them.  The only rarely gather in large numbers, and only the dailish know when and where that will take place.

The Chantry don't care for the Dalish, but they aren't making a concentrated effort to wipe them out. The odd templar tries to track down the clans in order to slay their keepers, but they aren't marching at the head of a large army. That's the difference between being "disliked" by the Chantry and actively being on the Chantry's hit list, which is what practicing blood magic would net them.

[Orian Tabris]

Sharn01 wrote...

Going to make this my last post here since we should start a new thread or PM if we want to continue from here on out, it will just take it off topic to much otherwise.

I dont understand your reasoning, refusing to use a weapon because someone used a weapon against you in the past is illogical.  When you are fighting for your very survival you use what is available to you.  The chantry already wants to wipe out the dailish and their keepers, the only reason they cant make an army is because the dailish split up into small clans and never stay in one place long enough for an army to march on them.  The only rarely gather in large numbers, and only the dailish know when and where that will take place.

The Chantry doesn't want to wipe out the Dalish, they just want them to be part of their own tyrannical empire (Velanna's words), not exterminate them. Also, they didn't really split up into small clans, they were already small clans to begin with. Many of those clans just died (probably) or were enslaved by the Tevinter Imperium, and became the city elves. I don't know how the elves became apart of the Chantry after the Imerpium though.

[Orian Tabris]

Only followers of the Andrastrian Chantry - peasants and minor lords - actually want to kill the Dalish, as far as I can tell. They're just bigots who mistake the Chants versus to mean that the Dalish must be destroyed. Listen to Sister Theohild in the Denerim Market District. Despite her incorrect lyrics, I'm pretty sure she explains it in the Chant.

Modifié par Orian Tabris, 31 janvier 2011 - 07:11 .

[Addai]

Orian Tabris wrote...
The Chantry doesn't want to wipe out the Dalish, they just want them to be part of their own tyrannical empire (Velanna's words), not exterminate them. Also, they didn't really split up into small clans, they were already small clans to begin with. Many of those clans just died (probably) or were enslaved by the Tevinter Imperium, and became the city elves. I don't know how the elves became apart of the Chantry after the Imerpium though.

In the Dalish origin, Hahren Paivel tells you that they split into clans after the fall of the Dales in order to better survive and preserve the lore.  To present a moving target, as it were, so that not all elves would be wiped out even if one clan was killed.  They do say that elves were spread out all over Thedas and in all sorts of settlements, but that's before they were called Dalish.

I would say the Chantry would gladly wipe out the Dalish if they don't submit to Chantry rule, which the Dalish won't, because that's their reason for being- they wouldn't submit and go into alienages.

[raziel3080]

Addai67 wrote...

Orian Tabris wrote...
The Chantry doesn't want to wipe out the Dalish, they just want them to be part of their own tyrannical empire (Velanna's words), not exterminate them. Also, they didn't really split up into small clans, they were already small clans to begin with. Many of those clans just died (probably) or were enslaved by the Tevinter Imperium, and became the city elves. I don't know how the elves became apart of the Chantry after the Imerpium though.

In the Dalish origin, Hahren Paivel tells you that they split into clans after the fall of the Dales in order to better survive and preserve the lore.  To present a moving target, as it were, so that not all elves would be wiped out even if one clan was killed.  They do say that elves were spread out all over Thedas and in all sorts of settlements, but that's before they were called Dalish.

I would say the Chantry would gladly wipe out the Dalish if they don't submit to Chantry rule, which the Dalish won't, because that's their reason for being- they wouldn't submit and go into alienages.

Which is why I'm beginning to the think the chantry is full of ****. They wanna persecute and wipe out anything and anyone who does NOT believe in their rules or their way of doing things. You know...this almost makes me wanna play origins again and go and defile the urn of sacred ashes(not to mention take out genetivi). That would be a massive blow to the chantry in of itself...if andraste wasn't thought of as the jesus christ of thedas that is...

[tmp7704]

raziel3080 wrote...

You know...this almost makes me wanna play origins again and go and defile the urn of sacred ashes(not to mention take out genetivi). That would be a massive blow to the chantry in of itself...

Since the urn is thought to be nothing but legend and/or something long and forever lost by pretty much everyone but a few, defiling it does nothing to damage the Chantry -- things stay just as they were.

[Xewaka]

I always find Dalish apologists funny.
Andraste: "Okay elf dudes, we've just finished a bloody crusade to set you free from the heathen, blood magic practicing evil tyrants of Tevinter. Here, have a big chunk of fertile land to stablish, remember that the Maker loves you, and be good."
Elves: "Yay!" *Start heathen cults and blood magic practicing*
Andrasteans: "Dudes, what the f*ck?"

Modifié par Xewaka, 31 janvier 2011 - 09:20 .

[Eorion_Moonwing]

Xewaka wrote...

I always find Dalish apologists funny.
Andraste: "Okay elf dudes, we've just finished a bloody crusade to set you free from the heathen, blood magic practicing evil tyrants of Tevinter. Here, have a big chunk of fertile land to stablish, remember that the Maker loves you, and be good."
Elves: "Yay!" *Start heathen cults and blood magic practicing*
Andrasteans: "Dudes, what the f*ck?"

1. Elves just team up with Andraste against Tevinter. Anraste led the rebellion for the human sake not elves. Yes, humans could just chain up elves again after all was over but this would be so strange and dirty.

2. Elves have their own religion why should they believe in the human maker?

[Redhawkdown]

Xewaka wrote...

I always find Dalish apologists funny.
Andraste: "Okay elf dudes, we've just finished a bloody crusade to set you free from the heathen, blood magic practicing evil tyrants of Tevinter. Here, have a big chunk of fertile land to stablish, remember that the Maker loves you, and be good."
Elves: "Yay!" *Start heathen cults and blood magic practicing*
Andrasteans: "Dudes, what the f*ck?"

You misunderstood the lore. It was never said that Andraste led the exalted march to free the slaves. All she wanted to do was to overthrow the Tevinter Imperium, and she was an ex slave herself. Sharing a common enemy the elves became one of her most devoted suporter (to her cause not her belief in the maker).

Andraste never finished her exalted march, she was betrayed by her husband, Maverath.  Shartan the elven rebellion leader was also killed during Maverath's betrayal.

The Dales were rewarded later by Andraste's sons (who later warred among themselves). The Dales at that time was an unpopulated cold dryland, so its more like the humans just gave them land the humans didnt want anyway. Many elves also died during the journey to reach the Dales.

"Heathen Cults" where do you hear this. All that was said was that the elven tried to regain their long lost culture after centuries of slavery. Elven cluture is not the same as Tevinters. And the game never stated the part about the elves sacrificing children to their gods as fact, characters in the game always said that its probably just  rumours spread by the chantry.

Modifié par Redhawkdown, 31 janvier 2011 - 11:07 .

[XX55XX]

It just occurred me. Merrill and Tali could potentially share many parallels. Could Merrill be DA2's Tali?

I believe that the Talimancers should take a nice, hard look at Merrill and decide for themselves.

[Atakuma]

XX55XX wrote...

It just occurred me. Merrill and Tali could potentially share many parallels. Could Merrill be DA2's Tali?

I believe that the Talimancers should take a nice, hard look at Merrill and decide for themselves.

We don't know enough about Merrill to make that comparison, and I'd rather not have the Talimancers take a nice hard look at anything, because that just sounds creepy.

[nightcobra]

 posted this on the isabela thread but i'll post this here too.

 "i can imagine a scene like this[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/lol.png[/smilie]

starts at 2:10

substitute meia for isabela, claus for varric, cress for hawke, mint for aveline, arche for merril[smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/lol.png[/smilie]

drunk merril :whistle:"

Modifié par nightcobra8928, 31 janvier 2011 - 04:21 .

[Addai]

Xewaka wrote...

I always find Dalish apologists funny.
Andraste: "Okay elf dudes, we've just finished a bloody crusade to set you free from the heathen, blood magic practicing evil tyrants of Tevinter. Here, have a big chunk of fertile land to stablish, remember that the Maker loves you, and be good."
Elves: "Yay!" *Start heathen cults and blood magic practicing*
Andrasteans: "Dudes, what the f*ck?"

"Dalish apologists"?  Who's that?

The elves were granted land as a reward for Shartan's role in their rebellion.  We don't know the terms of the land deal, but it's hard to imagine the elves would agree to become Andrastians since if they wanted to do that they could live in the alienages.  Nor do I doubt their magic changed any from what it had been when Andraste agreed to accept their help.  Both the elves and Andraste's armies were fighting blood mages.

Of course, I'm going on, but I'm not sure I even understand what you're objecting to.

[Addai]

Atakuma wrote...

XX55XX wrote...

It just occurred me. Merrill and Tali could potentially share many parallels. Could Merrill be DA2's Tali?

I believe that the Talimancers should take a nice, hard look at Merrill and decide for themselves.

We don't know enough about Merrill to make that comparison, and I'd rather not have the Talimancers take a nice hard look at anything, because that just sounds creepy.

LOL Indeed.

[Shepard Lives]

XX55XX wrote...

It just occurred me. Merrill and Tali could potentially share many parallels. Could Merrill be DA2's Tali?

I hope not, because I find Tali to be incredibly bland.

[upsettingshorts]

Shepard Lives wrote...

XX55XX wrote...

Could Merrill be DA2's Tali?

I hope not

[Face of Evil]

raziel3080 wrote...

Which is why I'm beginning to the think the chantry is full of ****. They wanna persecute and wipe out anything and anyone who does NOT believe in their rules or their way of doing things. You know...this almost makes me wanna play origins again and go and defile the urn of sacred ashes(not to mention take out genetivi). That would be a massive blow to the chantry in of itself...

Not really.

The Chantry considers the Urn of Sacred Ashes to be lost to history. It sure would benefit the Chantry to get it back, but it doesn't actually harm the Chantry to lose the Urn, because they never had it in the first place.

What you DO accomplish by defiling the Urn is assisting a bunch of insane dragon cultists.

Modifié par Face of Evil, 31 janvier 2011 - 06:13 .

[ankuu]

Face of Evil wrote...

raziel3080 wrote...

Which is why I'm beginning to the think the chantry is full of ****. They wanna persecute and wipe out anything and anyone who does NOT believe in their rules or their way of doing things. You know...this almost makes me wanna play origins again and go and defile the urn of sacred ashes(not to mention take out genetivi). That would be a massive blow to the chantry in of itself...

Not really.

The Chantry considers the Urn of Sacred Ashes to be lost to history. It sure would benefit the Chantry to get it back, but it doesn't actually harm the Chantry to lose the Urn, because they never had it in the first place.

What you DO accomplish by defiling the Urn is assisting a bunch of insane dragon cultists.

Well if we compare the Chantry to the Catholic church for example, we could associate the Urn with the Torino shrug. They would benefit from it being real, but what if they retrive it and it proves to be fake?

[tmp7704]

Addai67 wrote...

The elves were granted land as a reward for Shartan's role in their rebellion.  We don't know the terms of the land deal, but it's hard to imagine the elves would agree to become Andrastians since if they wanted to do that they could live in the alienages.

If i remember it right, the alienages were only created after the destruction of the Dales. Sort of a solution to avoid wholesale slaughter of the elves after their war was lost, i'd imagine. Which unsurprisingly contradicts the whole "chantry just wants to wipe elves out" thing.

Modifié par tmp7704, 31 janvier 2011 - 06:30 .