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[RVonE]

Tamahome560 wrote...

RVonE wrote...


By Artshardz.

Ha! This art pretty much sums up Merrill's and Isabela's friendship 

Exactly. I love how this picture connects with the actual in-game dynamic between Isabela and Merrill.

[Emperor Iaius I]

congealeddgtllvr wrote...

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

Nevertheless, if anybody could do it, Merrill can.

Why?

Remember, making a deal (like she did in the Fade) is not the same thing as becoming an abomination (as Marethari did).

It absolutely can be.  And I don't think it's clear that she wasn't deceived or overpowered in the Fade.  

I. Because she knows more ancient lore than anybody and has spent years on it? Because the Dalish--at least, aside from Marethari--have more experience with Fade spirits and are less liable to possession (we know this back in Origins!).

II. Can? I'm not speaking in hypotheticals. The demon in the Fade wanted Feynriel and made a deal for it, just as you can with the sloth demon.


People here are so terrified of demons. Good grief. This is exactly what Merrill was talking about! Even most of her fans want her to stop and abandon blood magic. Doesn't anybody else agree with her? 

[_Somebody]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

I. Because she knows more ancient lore than anybody and has spent years on it? Because the Dalish--at least, aside from Marethari--have more experience with Fade spirits and are less liable to possession (we know this back in Origins!).

II. Can? I'm not speaking in hypotheticals. The demon in the Fade wanted Feynriel and made a deal for it, just as you can with the sloth demon.


People here are so terrified of demons. Good grief. This is exactly what Merrill was talking about! Even most of her fans want her to stop and abandon blood magic. Doesn't anybody else agree with her? 

When did we hear that?

[mesmerizedish]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

Doesn't anybody else agree with her?

Situationally. I'll defend her use of blood magic. Dealing with demons is trickier, though. I think that Merrill is up to the task in general, but I think maybe she thinks more of herself than she should. As far as congress with spirits goes, she is very inexperienced. She may be a prodigy, but she still hasn't put her skills into practice enough.

[mesmerizedish]

What I would have loved to see from Merrill's friendship path is her becoming some sort of Fade spirit expert. Like an exorcist or something. I mean, by Year 7, she's still only really dealt with one demon, right? That's silly. She should gain some real practical experience.

[congealeddgtllvr]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

I. Because she knows more ancient lore than anybody and has spent years on it? Because the Dalish--at least, aside from Marethari--have more experience with Fade spirits and are less liable to possession (we know this back in Origins!).

II. Can? I'm not speaking in hypotheticals. The demon in the Fade wanted Feynriel and made a deal for it, just as you can with the sloth demon.


People here are so terrified of demons. Good grief. This is exactly what Merrill was talking about! Even most of her fans want her to stop and abandon blood magic. Doesn't anybody else agree with her? 

I. Where is it stated that Merrill has more expertise than anyone in this field?  We have no way of knowing this.  Also, saying that Merrill has more chance than anyone because she is Dalish is a contradictory statement.  

II. You misunderstand me.  If a demon were able to influence Merrill in some way it could convince her to let it in.  This is what I mean when I say a deal can end in an abomination being born.  

I agree with her on many things.  Not on these issues though, and it's because I care.  

[Emperor Iaius I]

I. Here: http://dragonage.bio...acters/merrill/

 Her abilities section also says that she has a unique knowledge of keeper lore. So--she knows all surviving Dalish lore and this is unique to her. Put two and two.

Also, saying that Merrill has more chance than anyone because she is Dalish is a contradictory statement.

How so? I wish I could find the thread, but there was a quote from Mr. Gaider somewhere (back in the Origins days, like I said) that said the Dalish were better at avoiding possession than Circle mages because they didn't shy away from the more dangerous demons, although Dalish abominations weren't unheard of.

II. Slippery slope? If I can convince you to go to a baseball game with me (and, say, ditch class in the process) then I can convince you to give me your house?

[_Somebody]

Even the Dalish dont practice blood magic.

I guess Im just too much of a wimp to approve of it tbh. Im all for magic, but i just dont want to risk becoming an abomination or anything like that. No matter how careful you are, there is still always the possibility of something going wrong. 

[Emperor Iaius I]

Correction: Marethari's clan doesn't practice blood magic. Zathrian did, and he was ancient. Indeed, the elves of Arlathan practiced blood magic (and summoned demons) and they are the elven ideal.

Honestly, any mage can become an abomination. Blood magic doesn't really make it easier, I don't think. It's just that, since it's forbidden for most, having already let their guard down for that, they can let their guard down for the demons as well (and remember, the Veil is realllllly thin at Kirkwall. Abominations were much rarer in Ferelden, except for those who intentionally took in a demon, like Uldred.)

Proper study is important. It's key. Ignorance is not power. It's the opposite.

Modifié par Emperor Iaius I, 26 mars 2011 - 02:31 .

[_Somebody]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

Correction: Marethari's clan doesn't practice blood magic. Zathrian did, and he was ancient. Indeed, the elves of Arlathan practiced blood magic (and summoned demons) and they are the elven ideal.

Really?

How do we know the elves of Arlathan did? The story teller in Zathrian's clan said that the magic the Imperium used Tevinter was dark and evil. I thought they didnt really do anything like that...

Modifié par Somebody, 26 mars 2011 - 02:30 .

[congealeddgtllvr]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

I. Here: http://dragonage.bio...acters/merrill/

 Her abilities section also says that she has a unique knowledge of keeper lore. So--she knows all surviving Dalish lore and this is unique to her. Put two and two.  

None of which means she has a greater ability to resist possession.  

Also, saying that Merrill has more chance than anyone because she is Dalish is a contradictory statement.

How so? I wish I could find the thread, but there was a quote from Mr. Gaider somewhere (back in the Origins days, like I said) that said the Dalish were better at avoiding possession than Circle mages because they didn't shy away from the more dangerous demons, although Dalish abominations weren't unheard of.

It is a contradictory statement because you said she had "a better chance than anyone"... because she belongs go a group that all have a better chance.  There is a contradiction inherent in the reasoning here.  

II. Slippery slope? If I can convince you to go to a baseball game with me (and, say, ditch class in the process) then I can convince you to give me your house?

You don't have the power of supernatural suggestion.  I know this because none of your arguments are convincing me at all.  (just kidding around:P)

Modifié par congealeddgtllvr, 26 mars 2011 - 02:36 .

[Emperor Iaius I]

It is a contradictory statement because you said she had "a better chance than anyone"... because she belongs go a group that all have a better chance. There is a contradiction inherent in the reasoning here.

Erm. Care to show it? I'm pretty good at this whole syllogism and logic thing, since I have to do it for a living. I can't see it.

To wit: the Dalish keepers and firsts, in general, have more experience with Fade spirits. Merrill has a better knowledge than the other Dalish keepers and firsts. More + more = even more. More + more != less. Do you follow?

You don't have the power of supernatural suggestion.

Does it matter? In for once, in for all? It's a wonder my Hawke and Warden isn't an abomination 50 times over, given all the deals I've made with demons. You're making an assertion and using it as evidence of fact that this would happen to Merrill. Prove your assertion first. Don't beg the question.

Avernus worked with demons. He was knowledgable on demonic lore. Guess what? Not an abomination. Oh, but his boss, well, she is. Curious. All that time with the Veil so thin, and that demon summoning blood mage isn't an abomination. Quite odd.

Modifié par Emperor Iaius I, 26 mars 2011 - 02:38 .

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Somebody wrote...

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

I. Because she knows more ancient lore than anybody and has spent years on it? Because the Dalish--at least, aside from Marethari--have more experience with Fade spirits and are less liable to possession (we know this back in Origins!).

II. Can? I'm not speaking in hypotheticals. The demon in the Fade wanted Feynriel and made a deal for it, just as you can with the sloth demon.


People here are so terrified of demons. Good grief. This is exactly what Merrill was talking about! Even most of her fans want her to stop and abandon blood magic. Doesn't anybody else agree with her? 

When did we hear that?

I for one love watching my foes goe splodie when she uses wounds of the past...
...right after my Mage Hawke uses hemorage...

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

I. Here: http://dragonage.bio...acters/merrill/

 Her abilities section also says that she has a unique knowledge of keeper lore. So--she knows all surviving Dalish lore and this is unique to her. Put two and two.

Also, saying that Merrill has more chance than anyone because she is Dalish is a contradictory statement.

How so? I wish I could find the thread, but there was a quote from Mr. Gaider somewhere (back in the Origins days, like I said) that said the Dalish were better at avoiding possession than Circle mages because they didn't shy away from the more dangerous demons, although Dalish abominations weren't unheard of.

II. Slippery slope? If I can convince you to go to a baseball game with me (and, say, ditch class in the process) then I can convince you to give me your house?

By jove you've discovered my secret plan!
Drat!

[Torax]

Black Magic is feared because it's the tool of the demons. It comes from their magic and taught to a mage as a tool at times to either letting the demon in or summoning it in the first place. While Merrill maybe right that blood magic it'self is not inherently evil. The fear is not the magic as much as where it came from and what it can allow to happen.

For example blood magic and sacrifices can over time can rip a hole in the veil and allow demons to enter freely. Remember our twisted Warden Blood Mage from Origins who was using the taint as his tool to fight the demons. Blood Magic was from the demons and wasn't working. The taint was foreign to the demons and was far more effective. Many see blood magic and the work of demons as one and the same.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Torax wrote...

Black Magic is feared because it's the tool of the demons. It comes from their magic and taught to a mage as a tool at times to either letting the demon in or summoning it in the first place. While Merrill maybe right that blood magic it'self is not inherently evil. The fear is not the magic as much as where it came from and what it can allow to happen.

For example blood magic and sacrifices can over time can rip a hole in the veil and allow demons to enter freely. Remember our twisted Warden Blood Mage from Origins who was using the taint as his tool to fight the demons. Blood Magic was from the demons and wasn't working. The taint was foreign to the demons and was far more effective. Many see blood magic and the work of demons as one and the same.

....but....but hemorage can make enemies go splodie! *looks indignant*
.....I mean all the other spells can to but it's a special kind of spell that let's you stab youself in the chest, pull the blade out and cause your foes to...well explode.

[congealeddgtllvr]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

It is a contradictory statement because you said she had "a better chance than anyone"... because she belongs go a group that all have a better chance. There is a contradiction inherent in the reasoning here.

Erm. Care to show it? I'm pretty good at this whole syllogism and logic thing, since I have to do it for a living. I can't see it.

To wit: the Dalish keepers and firsts, in general, have more experience with Fade spirits. Merrill has a better knowledge than the other Dalish keepers and firsts. More + more = even more. More + more ! = less. Do you follow?

Nowhere are we told that her "unique knowledge of Keeper lore" makes her better at resisting temptation.  You are assuming this.  You claim that all Dalish are better at it, but that would only mean that Merrill would be better than your average human, not better than anyone, which was your original claim.  This is the contradiction.

You don't have the power of supernatural suggestion.

Does it matter? In for once, in for all? It's a wonder my Hawke and Warden isn't an abomination 50 times over, given all the deals I've made with demons. You're making an assertion and using it as evidence of fact that this would happen to Merrill. Prove your assertion first. Don't beg the question.

I am not making any claims of fact.  I am pointing out that you have no evidence for your position.  

I am not impressed by the fact that Hawke and the Warden can deal without demons without being possessed.  They are the exception to the rule and there is no evidence to suggest that Merrill is as well.  

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

congealeddgtllvr wrote...

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

It is a contradictory statement because you said she had "a better chance than anyone"... because she belongs go a group that all have a better chance. There is a contradiction inherent in the reasoning here.

Erm. Care to show it? I'm pretty good at this whole syllogism and logic thing, since I have to do it for a living. I can't see it.

To wit: the Dalish keepers and firsts, in general, have more experience with Fade spirits. Merrill has a better knowledge than the other Dalish keepers and firsts. More + more = even more. More + more ! = less. Do you follow?

Nowhere are we told that her "unique knowledge of Keeper lore" makes her better at resisting temptation.  You are assuming this.  You claim that all Dalish are better at it, but that would only mean that Merrill would be better than your average human, not better than anyone, which was your original claim.  This is the contradiction.

You don't have the power of supernatural suggestion.

Does it matter? In for once, in for all? It's a wonder my Hawke and Warden isn't an abomination 50 times over, given all the deals I've made with demons. You're making an assertion and using it as evidence of fact that this would happen to Merrill. Prove your assertion first. Don't beg the question.

I am not making any claims of fact.  I am pointing out that you have no evidence for your position.  

I am not impressed by the fact that Hawke and the Warden can deal without demons without being possessed.  They are the exception to the rule and there is no evidence to suggest that Merrill is as well.  

I have a reason the fandom would riot.
It would be like if ME2 killed off Tali....*shudders* I'd rather deal with 100 Merediths than see that...Blood would run through the streets of the...internet.

[congealeddgtllvr]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

I have a reason the fandom would riot.
It would be like if ME2 killed off Tali....*shudders* I'd rather deal with 100 Merediths than see that...Blood would run through the streets of the...internet.

This is true but I wouldn't be one of the rioters.  

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

congealeddgtllvr wrote...

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

I have a reason the fandom would riot.
It would be like if ME2 killed off Tali....*shudders* I'd rather deal with 100 Merediths than see that...Blood would run through the streets of the...internet.

This is true but I wouldn't be one of the rioters.  

Bioware has a tendancy to make really popular characters selectively immortal.
For example it is possible for Tali, Garrus, Wrex or most of the others to die.
It is however ridiculously easy to prevent this.
They'll probably pull the same trick with DA.
...not that I'll complain.

[Addai]

Soo... Merrill is bugged, yes? On my replay game I got her talk about "what happened to Marethari" before we'd been to see the clan about the mirror.

[Torax]

Addai67 wrote...

Soo... Merrill is bugged, yes? On my replay game I got her talk about "what happened to Marethari" before we'd been to see the clan about the mirror.

yeah it's a bug.

[Emperor Iaius I]

Nowhere are we told that her "unique knowledge of Keeper lore" makes her better at resisting temptation. You are assuming this. You claim that all Dalish are better at it, but that would only mean that Merrill would be better than your average human, not better than anyone, which was your original claim. This is the contradiction.

Yes, as you assume she'd be possessed. All things equal, what does the balance of the evidence favor? Do we weigh specific evidence about her less than some generalization about how demons are universally good at possessing things?

I'm . . . also not sure you're correctly identifying a contradiction in what I'm saying. An inherent contradiction means that the premises entail conclusions that are (at least in part) mutually exclusive.

Further, you're not following what I'm saying. I'm not saying the Dalish are, as a race, better at dealing with demons than humans. I am saying that Dalish keepers and firsts are better than human mages because they deal with demons with more regularity: it's about experience, not about some intrinsic property.

So, not only have you been mistaken about what a contradiction is, and not only have you misstated my position, now you've misquoted me. I said that she knows more ancient lore than anybody and that this, combined with the general expertise of the Dalish, makes her less liable for possession. YOU said that I was saying that she had "a better chance than anybody"--so not only have you placed quotes around something I've never said, but then you've followed by saying that it was my "original claim." Then you call it a contradiction.

So while misstating my position and, in fact, misquoting me, you say you're not convinced. What a suprise! You've been arguing with a strawman that you've constructed, rather than me. It's easy to be right when you get to make up what your opponent is saying!

For those reasons, I am no longer interested in discussing this matter with you. It won't go anywhere good, and I'd rather not make a mess of this thread.

New topic. Something fun. How about . . . what kind of food would Merrill like? Spicy? Sweet? Bitter?

Yes, it verges on the inane (I'm sorry) but there's too much serious business right now.

[congealeddgtllvr]

Grand Admiral Cheesecake wrote...

Bioware has a tendancy to make really popular characters selectively immortal.
For example it is possible for Tali, Garrus, Wrex or most of the others to die.
It is however ridiculously easy to prevent this.
They'll probably pull the same trick with DA.
...not that I'll complain.

Nor would I.  Though DA2 was actually pretty brutal towards NPCs, in some ways.  I'm more worried about that DA characters than the ME ones.  

And yeah, lots of people have had that "A New Path" bug.  

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Torax wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Soo... Merrill is bugged, yes? On my replay game I got her talk about "what happened to Marethari" before we'd been to see the clan about the mirror.

yeah it's a bug.

But don't worry it doesn't break her quest or romance.