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[tmp7704]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

That's not letting HER be possessed. That's letting the demon have its way with Feynriel.

I still don't see how allowing demon to possess another mage with rare and very strong power is proving that Merrill is aware demon possession is bad thing that should never be accepted.

[DoNotIngest]

tmp7704 wrote...

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

That's not letting HER be possessed. That's letting the demon have its way with Feynriel.

I still don't see how allowing demon to possess another mage with rare and very strong power is proving that Merrill is aware demon possession is bad thing that should never be accepted.

In the Fade, Varric is convinced to attack Hawke for what, Dwarven prestige? That Pride demon spiked the punch, there was more than just greedy pride making their decisions. When it says it's the most powerful of its kind, I don't think it was far from the mark.

[mesmerizedish]

tmp7704 wrote...

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

That's not letting HER be possessed. That's letting the demon have its way with Feynriel.

I still don't see how allowing demon to possess another mage with rare and very strong power is proving that Merrill is aware demon possession is bad thing that should never be accepted.

That's not what our friendly neighborhood blood mage is saying. Merrill never agreed to let herself be possessed. You said she did.

Modifié par ishmaeltheforsaken, 27 mars 2011 - 01:50 .

[DoNotIngest]

Merrill states (I believe honestly) that this Pride-demon-in-a-jar told her it witnessed her Eluvian being made, and is willing to tell her about it. Obviously, it wants out; She just thinks she can outmanoeuvre it. The Keeper mentions that she could have banished the demon, but it would have made it stronger. I'd assume that unless she fell prey to its promises and took it in willingly, she didn't banish it out of responsibility for what greater havoc it could cause in the future. However, I doubt Merrill would have had any qualms about banishing the demon if it turned on her; She has a mission, and it seems Hawke doesn't break a sweat fighting little old demons anyways In the end, I think Merrill could have quite safely seen if the demon really knew anything; If it didn't, or its terms weren't to her liking, she could banish it, and come out none the worse for the wear. No elves had to die over this. My thoughts, at least.

[congealeddgtllvr]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

That's not letting HER be possessed. That's letting the demon have its way with Feynriel.

I still don't see how allowing demon to possess another mage with rare and very strong power is proving that Merrill is aware demon possession is bad thing that should never be accepted.

That's not what our friendly neighborhood blood mage is saying. Merrill never agreed to let herself be possessed. You said she did.

During her apology conversation the one of the "aggressive" options has Hawke saying that she could have killed him or Feynriel or become an abomination.  She responds with "but I didn't, you were there."  That sounds to me like she was acknowledging she could have become an abomination because of her actions.

[congealeddgtllvr]

tmp7704 wrote...

Malevolence65 wrote...

I don't think that she would.

She sure agrees with the concept quickly while in the Fade.

I think the demon influences her decision making.  Some people chalk this up to her being inside a Dreamer's dream, but I don't see any reason to believe that Audacity couldn't do the same thing.  I think it's basically what he did to Marethari.  The desire to protect Merrill needed to be there to begin with, but he was able to pervert and appropriate that emotion to influence her choices.  

Modifié par congealeddgtllvr, 27 mars 2011 - 02:15 .

[DoNotIngest]

congealeddgtllvr wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

Malevolence65 wrote...

I don't think that she would.

She sure agrees with the concept quickly while in the Fade.

I think the demon influences her decision making.  Some people chalk this up to her being inside a Dreamer's dream, but I don't see any reason to believe that Audacity couldn't do the same thing.  I think it's basically what he did to Marethari.  The desire to protect Merrill needed to be there to begin with, but he was able to pervert and appropriate that emotion to influence her choices.  

I quoted you, and in the forum, it didn't show anything past "...same thing.", but now it's showing the next two sentences? Anyways:

I think, as long as Hawke & company was there, Merrill could be swayed away from any potential demon influences (After all, they're not in the Fade any more, and she's already been fooled by a Pride demon once; That would brew some Humility, which I'd have to wager is the bane of Pride?). If not, well, I'm sure Hawke & friends could take care of Audacity quickly enough, even with Merrill against them. Then have a good long talk about priorities afterwards...

Modifié par DoNotIngest, 27 mars 2011 - 02:20 .

[tmp7704]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

That's not what our friendly neighborhood blood mage is saying. Merrill never agreed to let herself be possessed. You said she did.

That's true; but that's actually me giving her benefit of the doubt there. Because if we're going to infer from this the alternative, that Merrill has no qualms to let other people become demon's host if it means she achieves her goals despite knowing better than enter such deal herself ... then it imo paints her in quite worse and selfish light than the possibility of being "equal opportunity" reckless and willing to accept such deal personally as well.

[congealeddgtllvr]

DoNotIngest wrote...

I quoted you, and in the forum, it didn't show anything past "...same thing.", but now it's showing the next two sentences? Anyways:

I think, as long as Hawke & company was there, Merrill could be swayed away from any potential demon influences (After all, they're not in the Fade any more, and she's already been fooled by a Pride demon once; That would brew some Humility, which I'd have to wager is the bane of Pride?). If not, well, I'm sure Hawke & friends could take care of Audacity quickly enough, even with Merrill against them. Then have a good long talk about priorities afterwards...

Sorry I edited my post when I thought of more things to write.  I agree with you.  I like to believe we could have helped her, anyway.  But now we'll never know...

Modifié par congealeddgtllvr, 27 mars 2011 - 02:24 .

[DoNotIngest]

congealeddgtllvr wrote...Sorry I edited my post when I thought of more things to write.  I agree with you.  I like to believe we could have helped her, anyway.  But now we'll never know...

Meddling old women are always up to no good.

Anyone else think that Merrill would have made a great Keeper if she'd been kept in her original clan? Of course, then we'd never have known about her from Origins, but whatever

[triviumisgodly]

DoNotIngest wrote...

congealeddgtllvr wrote...Sorry I edited my post when I thought of more things to write.  I agree with you.  I like to believe we could have helped her, anyway.  But now we'll never know...

Meddling old women are always up to no good.

Anyone else think that Merrill would have made a great Keeper if she'd been kept in her original clan? Of course, then we'd never have known about her from Origins, but whatever

I think Merrill will eventually become a keeper in a future DA game, .She could become an important character in the entire DA universe, as I believe she will be the one to restore the Elves to their former glory.

[DoNotIngest]

triviumisgodly wrote...

DoNotIngest wrote...

congealeddgtllvr wrote...Sorry I edited my post when I thought of more things to write.  I agree with you.  I like to believe we could have helped her, anyway.  But now we'll never know...

Meddling old women are always up to no good.

Anyone else think that Merrill would have made a great Keeper if she'd been kept in her original clan? Of course, then we'd never have known about her from Origins, but whatever

I think Merrill will eventually become a keeper in a future DA game, .She could become an important character in the entire DA universe, as I believe she will be the one to restore the Elves to their former glory.

Actually, that makes a lot of sense. Take out Merrill, and... Well... There aren't any important Dalish left (Your Warden could be one, but it's completely optional so not really relevant).  If they're to do anything at all with Dalish moving forwards, Merrill is by far the best candidate. Much more cost efficient and plausible than making an entirely new character.

More Merrill FTW!

[_Somebody]

there are plenty of other Dalish in Thedas that we havent met.

I think that Merrill is pretty much done with the Dalish after what happened with her clan. 

[DoNotIngest]

Somebody wrote...

there are plenty of other Dalish in Thedas that we havent met.

I think that Merrill is pretty much done with the Dalish after what happened with her clan. 

Well, I'm sure there are plenty of Grey Wardens, as well. I meant as far as established characters go, well, there was that one in Witch Hunt. Not so relevant.

Merrill's entire ostracization with her clan was over her blood magic, and the only reason she took up blood magic was to cleanse her mirror. The only reason she dealt with demons was to repair that cleansed mirror. The only reason she wanted to have a functional Eluvian was to restore an extremely powerful magical item to her people, that was a large part of their history. Really, you can narrow Merrill's agenda down from 1+1=2+1=3+1=4 to 2+2=4: She became the Dalish Pariah to re-enrich the culture of those same Dalish.

I don't see how Merrill could possibly not have anything more to do with the Dalish; It's been her life's goal, hasn't it?

[triviumisgodly]

Yea she has all the ingredients to be a mainstay in the DA universe.
1. Good connections with alot of other important characters such as Hawke, potentially the warden,all DA2 characters, and maybe Flemeth because she give her some important advice.
2. Desire to restore the Elves to what they once were. If you think about it, she is the only character who seeks this goal. That is something that makes her interesting, as she actually has a purpose unlike most of the DA characters.
3. Very likeable character that I believe will eventually be a fan favorite

[tmp7704]

DoNotIngest wrote...

Actually, that makes a lot of sense. Take out Merrill, and... Well... There aren't any important Dalish left (Your Warden could be one, but it's completely optional so not really relevant).  If they're to do anything at all with Dalish moving forwards, Merrill is by far the best candidate. Much more cost efficient and plausible than making an entirely new character.

More Merrill FTW!

There's Velanna and Ariane. For this matter, since they didn't have problem making at least one entirely new elf per expansion and DLCs, it's probably not too much of issue for DA3, either.

Modifié par tmp7704, 27 mars 2011 - 03:20 .

[triviumisgodly]

tmp7704 wrote...

DoNotIngest wrote...

Actually, that makes a lot of sense. Take out Merrill, and... Well... There aren't any important Dalish left (Your Warden could be one, but it's completely optional so not really relevant).  If they're to do anything at all with Dalish moving forwards, Merrill is by far the best candidate. Much more cost efficient and plausible than making an entirely new character.

More Merrill FTW!

There's Velanna and Ariane. For this matter, since they didn't have problem making at least one entirely new elf per expansion and DLCs, it's probably not too much of issue for DA3, either.

But see thats the thing, out of those three Merrill is the one who is the most dedicated in empowering the elves and restoring their culture. The other two are just kinda their.

[DoNotIngest]

triviumisgodly wrote...

Yea she has all the ingredients to be a mainstay in the DA universe.
1. Good connections with alot of other important characters such as Hawke, potentially the warden,all DA2 characters, and maybe Flemeth because she give her some important advice.
2. Desire to restore the Elves to what they once were. If you think about it, she is the only character who seeks this goal. That is something that makes her interesting, as she actually has a purpose unlike most of the DA characters.
3. Very likeable character that I believe will eventually be a fan favorite

Yes. Aveline has a "nice-little-life" thing going, Fenris has nothing to do with anything, Sebastien might have a small matter with his Starkhaven and all that, but that's it; Isabela has solved all of her problems and fulfilled her goals,  and your sibling doesn't look like they'll be around because of all the optional stuff. This leaves Varric, who may not be too important, as all he did was tell a story (though I liked him a lot; Everybody did), Anders, who seems to have played his crowd-rousing part, and Merrill. We never see what happens with Merrill and her mirror, and even that would be an ending and a beginning: Merrill's the only one who has Thedas-changing goals in mind, to completely revitalize a fallen race. I like where this is going

Merrill's already a fan favourite, really. I'm unsure how long the previous Varric threads were, and I know that (cringe) the Fenris thread is around 1250 pages, so I'd say Merrill is the third most popular DA2 character, at least. I think the only people who don't like her haven't payed enough attention to realize she's not just a ditsy blood mage, she toggles her personality carefully around the other companions and such.

Modifié par DoNotIngest, 27 mars 2011 - 03:26 .

[Emperor Iaius I]

Here's the thing about Merrill.

The Keepers and such want to preserve / restore the Dales.

Merrill wants to preserve / restore Arlathan and Elvhenan.

THAT is the difference between them.

[tmp7704]

triviumisgodly wrote...

But see thats the thing, out of those three Merrill is the one who is the most dedicated in empowering the elves and restoring their culture. The other two are just kinda their.

Well, Ariane's whole quest revolves around retrieving the book with knowledge of her clan. Pretty dedicated too, and she manages to accomplish it without a disaster. She also gets to witness actually working ancient mirror, brushes shoulders with the mother of Old God Baby as well as the Warden, gets a look at the mysterious gift Morrigan left for the Warden on her (or their) departure and is part of still alive clan (and best hunter of that clan, to boot)

All these things considered, if they were actually going to reuse existing companions at all (which isn't given, as DA2 didn't really do it after all) she may be a better candidate for useful full-time companion than Merrill, if just because at this point of the story Merrill doesn't exactly have much to work with -- there isn't many things left for her to screw up and bring to ruin in her earnest attempts, and with the mirror demon gone she doesn't have any remaining ways to restore the culture and empower the elves.

[_Somebody]

DoNotIngest wrote...

Somebody wrote...

there are plenty of other Dalish in Thedas that we havent met.

I think that Merrill is pretty much done with the Dalish after what happened with her clan. 

Well, I'm sure there are plenty of Grey Wardens, as well. I meant as far as established characters go, well, there was that one in Witch Hunt. Not so relevant.

Merrill's entire ostracization with her clan was over her blood magic, and the only reason she took up blood magic was to cleanse her mirror. The only reason she dealt with demons was to repair that cleansed mirror. The only reason she wanted to have a functional Eluvian was to restore an extremely powerful magical item to her people, that was a large part of their history. Really, you can narrow Merrill's agenda down from 1+1=2+1=3+1=4 to 2+2=4: She became the Dalish Pariah to re-enrich the culture of those same Dalish.

I don't see how Merrill could possibly not have anything more to do with the Dalish; It's been her life's goal, hasn't it?

I dont really think they would want her after she (as far as they know) was the reason her Keeper, and possible whole clan was killed... 

[DoNotIngest]

tmp7704 wrote...

triviumisgodly wrote...

But see thats the thing, out of those three Merrill is the one who is the most dedicated in empowering the elves and restoring their culture. The other two are just kinda their.

Well, Ariane's whole quest revolves around retrieving the book with knowledge of her clan. Pretty dedicated too, and she manages to accomplish it without a disaster. She also gets to witness actually working ancient mirror, brushes shoulders with the mother of Old God Baby as well as the Warden, gets a look at the mysterious gift Morrigan left for the Warden on her (or their) departure and is part of still alive clan (and best hunter of that clan, to boot)

All these things considered, if they were actually going to reuse existing companions at all (which isn't given, as DA2 didn't really do it after all) she may be a better candidate for useful full-time companion than Merrill, if just because at this point of the story Merrill doesn't exactly have much to work with -- there isn't many things left for her to screw up and bring to ruin in her earnest attempts, and with the mirror demon gone she doesn't have any remaining ways to restore the culture and empower the elves.

Well, guess we'll have to non-patronizingly agree to disagree. You, serrah, have won the internetz.

This doesn't seem as much of a happy Merrill thread as it should be. Where'd all that fanart go? Just because we can see Merrill in the game, doesn't mean that fanart is unnecessary.

[DoNotIngest]

Somebody wrote...
I dont really think they would want her after she (as far as they know) was the reason her Keeper, and possible whole clan was killed... 

As far as the Dalish know, if her entire clan was killed, the only one who can account to them what happened would be Merrill. Otherwise, if it was just her Keeper's death to worry about, they probably would go griping to some of the other clans. Not that Merrill has ever seen it necessary to be accepted by her people to benefit them with her efforts.

[Tigerking]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

Here's the thing about Merrill.

The Keepers and such want to preserve / restore the Dales.

Merrill wants to preserve / restore Arlathan and Elvhenan.

THAT is the difference between them.

I wonder: why then wouldn't the Keepers want to restore Arlathan? I mean, the Dales seemed alright in the lore, but why would they not shoot for reclaiming all the lost legacies of the elven empire? It could actually make the Dalish the most powerful force on Thedas with just the Eluvians alone. 
Seems like Merrill has the right idea, at least on that front.

[triviumisgodly]

tmp7704 wrote...

triviumisgodly wrote...

But see thats the thing, out of those three Merrill is the one who is the most dedicated in empowering the elves and restoring their culture. The other two are just kinda their.

Well, Ariane's whole quest revolves around retrieving the book with knowledge of her clan. Pretty dedicated too, and she manages to accomplish it without a disaster. She also gets to witness actually working ancient mirror, brushes shoulders with the mother of Old God Baby as well as the Warden, gets a look at the mysterious gift Morrigan left for the Warden on her (or their) departure and is part of still alive clan (and best hunter of that clan, to boot)

All these things considered, if they were actually going to reuse existing companions at all (which isn't given, as DA2 didn't really do it after all) she may be a better candidate for useful full-time companion than Merrill, if just because at this point of the story Merrill doesn't exactly have much to work with -- there isn't many things left for her to screw up and bring to ruin in her earnest attempts, and with the mirror demon gone she doesn't have any remaining ways to restore the culture and empower the elves.

I see your point but what I'm trying to say is that they could re-use characters in later DA games. They don't neccesarily have to be in subsequent order. I love Merrill as a character but I don't expect her to be in DA3. But lets say that their is a DA4 or DA5. That is when I expect Bioware to bring back old characters, that can drastically alter the DA universe like Merrill and Morrigan.