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[_Somebody]

DoNotIngest wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

Somebody wrote...
You probably laughed while doing it.

I really didn't... :crying:

I always wondered what happened afterwards to Finn and that Dalish elf that traveled with you. 

I don't recall if it was Sheryl Chee or Mary Kirby who said that she envisions them both adventuring together.

Yes, they happily eloped and traveled around the lands bettering Thedas. Well, either that or they were eaten by darkspawn and other nasty critters. Probably would have been safest to quit while they were ahead.

lol I dont remember them being in a relationship or anything. I liked them both though.

Modifié par Somebody, 28 mars 2011 - 02:31 .

[Malevolence65]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...
No, I mean the only way I can think of that makes it right is to take the stance that Merrill isn't capable of handling herself. That's what I mean by demeaning.

It's not really demeaning to think that Merrill (a young, inexperienced person) isn't capable of handling a powerful Pride Demon. She was in over her head.

On an unrelated note, I'm looking forward to the first patch, because it's going to fix "Friendly Concern", the quest in which Varric is supposed to talk to Hawke about his relationship with whoever he/she is romancing. Right now it only works with Anders. I think it's possible to make it work with the console, though, so if anyone has any experience with that kind of thing it would be cool if they could give instructions on how to do it or upload a video.

[TMA LIVE]

DoNotIngest wrote...

If they Keeper hadn't interfered, Merrill would have just found she and the gang would have had to shred the demon, and she'd just happily keep on searching for ways to repair the mirror without any needless martyring on her behalf.

This feels familiar...

That's guess or a personal belief. If you're wrong, Merrill's dead. Either way, the Mirror wouldn't have worked.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 28 mars 2011 - 02:34 .

[ydaraishy]

Malevolence65 wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...
No, I mean the only way I can think of that makes it right is to take the stance that Merrill isn't capable of handling herself. That's what I mean by demeaning.

It's not really demeaning to think that Merrill (a young, inexperienced person) isn't capable of handling a powerful Pride Demon. She was in over her head.

If you follow the philosophy that you let people make their own mistakes without influence or coercion, then you can see how that would be a bit demeaning.

She even asks Hawke to put her down if she goes the way of an abomination. I think she's aware of the potential consequences.

[Maria Caliban]

Malevolence65 wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...
No, I mean the only way I can think of that makes it right is to take the stance that Merrill isn't capable of handling herself. That's what I mean by demeaning.

It's not really demeaning to think that Merrill (a young, inexperienced person) isn't capable of handling a powerful Pride Demon. She was in over her head.

How is Merrill young and inexperienced in Act 3? She's been adventuring with Hawke for 6 years.

[Zjarcal]

Maria Caliban wrote...
How is Merrill young and inexperienced in Act 3? She's been adventuring with Hawke for 6 years.

This is the kind of thing I always fail to realize... it's been so many years. 

[congealeddgtllvr]

ydaraishy wrote...

If you follow the philosophy that you let people make their own mistakes without influence or coercion, then you can see how that would be a bit demeaning.

She even asks Hawke to put her down if she goes the way of an abomination. I think she's aware of the potential consequences.

Learning stops after rigor mortis sets in.  

[Malevolence65]

Maria Caliban wrote...
How is Merrill young and inexperienced in Act 3? She's been adventuring with Hawke for 6 years.

Well, she's still fairly young. I'd say she's in her mid-20s during Act 3. As for the inexperienced thing, I meant more along the lines of resisting demonic possession, fade stuff, etc., not combat abilities. I can't really put my thoughts into words right now, I'm too tired.

[ydaraishy]

congealeddgtllvr wrote...

ydaraishy wrote...

If you follow the philosophy that you let people make their own mistakes without influence or coercion, then you can see how that would be a bit demeaning.

She even asks Hawke to put her down if she goes the way of an abomination. I think she's aware of the potential consequences.

Learning stops after rigor mortis sets in.  

Again, philosophy. Would you rather be wrapped up safe in cotton wool for your entire life, or would you die knowing you at least had the freedom to live it the way you wanted?

(Funny, the arguments about what the "right" thing is to do with Merrill or not, is related to some aspects of political theory...)

[TMA LIVE]

ydaraishy wrote...

Malevolence65 wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...
No, I mean the only way I can think of that makes it right is to take the stance that Merrill isn't capable of handling herself. That's what I mean by demeaning.

It's not really demeaning to think that Merrill (a young, inexperienced person) isn't capable of handling a powerful Pride Demon. She was in over her head.

If you follow the philosophy that you let people make their own mistakes without influence or coercion, then you can see how that would be a bit demeaning.

She even asks Hawke to put her down if she goes the way of an abomination. I think she's aware of the potential consequences.

She's aware, but she doesn't listen. She doesn't listen to the Keeper that taught her everything. She instead takes her bet with the demon that taught her what it wanted to teach her (and it's end goal was to possess her). She wants Hawke there to kill her if things go bad, yet doesn't think the same might happen to Hawke, or if Hawke can't defeat a demon possessed Merrill. You're either with her, and she's cool with you doing her bidding, or you're not, and she's wants you gone.

If you refuse to help her with the Mirror, she fixes it anyways without your help, and hates you. She even blames you for it (though it still doesn't work even if you do help her).

And then she wants to talk to the demon because the mirror won't work. You disagree, too bad, she's going anyways.

And her tribe wanted her to stop. She decided to leave instead of listening to them.

Friendship wise, it's her way, or no way. She remains arrogant.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 28 mars 2011 - 02:49 .

[_Somebody]

ydaraishy wrote...

congealeddgtllvr wrote...

ydaraishy wrote...

If you follow the philosophy that you let people make their own mistakes without influence or coercion, then you can see how that would be a bit demeaning.

She even asks Hawke to put her down if she goes the way of an abomination. I think she's aware of the potential consequences.

Learning stops after rigor mortis sets in.  

Again, philosophy. Would you rather be wrapped up safe in cotton wool for your entire life, or would you die knowing you at least had the freedom to live it the way you wanted?

(Funny, the arguments about what the "right" thing is to do with Merrill or not, is related to some aspects of political theory...)

Id rather blow up a church and go down fighting.

[TMA LIVE]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Malevolence65 wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...
No, I mean the only way I can think of that makes it right is to take the stance that Merrill isn't capable of handling herself. That's what I mean by demeaning.

It's not really demeaning to think that Merrill (a young, inexperienced person) isn't capable of handling a powerful Pride Demon. She was in over her head.

How is Merrill young and inexperienced in Act 3? She's been adventuring with Hawke for 6 years.

Well, did she know that the demon was going to come out of the mirror?

[Emperor Iaius I]

TMA: There is no evidence whatsoever that the demon locked within the statue could have used the mirror to jump out into the real world, aside from what it told Marethari in order to--guess what--get out of the statute.

I persistently ask: why do you believe the same demon you think is so big bad and scary? It lies. It lies when you defeat it, when the Marebomination tells you that it's over--it stabs Merrill with a knife. yet we take its word anyway?

That seems by far the sillier thing.

[TMA LIVE]

Zjarcal wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...
How is Merrill young and inexperienced in Act 3? She's been adventuring with Hawke for 6 years.

This is the kind of thing I always fail to realize... it's been so many years. 

Yeah, and everyone's still wearing the same clothes, and talking about stuff that happened 3 years ago.

I really do wish Bioware just made it a 3 year story. It really doesn't feel like a 7 year tale.

[Maria Caliban]

Zjarcal wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...
How is Merrill young and inexperienced in Act 3? She's been adventuring with Hawke for 6 years.

This is the kind of thing I always fail to realize... it's been so many years. 

And how many times has Hawke said, "I'm going to do something stupid and horribly dangerous. Come along and help me?"

Hawke: "Merrill, I'm going to journey into the Deep Roads for money. It's full of darkspawn and other terrors that have never seen the light of day while you're a young and inexperienced Dalish mage. Want to come with me?"
Merrill: "Sure Hawke!"

Hawke: "Merrill, the qunari are rampaging through the city. Instead of fleeing, we're going to head right into the battle zone and I'm going to go head-to-heard with the Arishok. Want to help me?"
Merrill: "Sounds exciting..."

Hawke: "Merrill, this boy is a powerful mage. We're going to enter the Fade and deal with the demons that have taken up residence in his head."
Merrill: "Count me in."

Hawke: "Merrill, there's are swarms of blood mages in this city. I'm going to hunt down groups of them and eliminate them all!"
Merrill: "Just let me get my cleaning cloth."

Hawke: "Look, it's a book/scroll of forbidden knowledge and when I read it, a group of powerful demons are summoned. I'm now going search for all of them so I can find a hidden lair where one of the most powerful of fade creatures has slumbered for centuries."
Merrill: "Oh, do you have to destr--? Guess you do."

Hawke: "It's a High Dragon! I've waited all game for this fight."
Merrill: "Right behind you."

---------
Merrill: "I've searched for years to fix this mirror and have decided the only way to do it is deal with a demon. I'm not sure what will happen, but it's possible it will possess me you'll have to fight it."
Hawke: "WTF?! That's too dangerous for someone as young and inexperienced as you!"

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 28 mars 2011 - 03:06 .

[TMA LIVE]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

TMA: There is no evidence whatsoever that the demon locked within the statue could have used the mirror to jump out into the real world, aside from what it told Marethari in order to--guess what--get out of the statute.

I persistently ask: why do you believe the same demon you think is so big bad and scary? It lies. It lies when you defeat it, when the Marebomination tells you that it's over--it stabs Merrill with a knife. yet we take its word anyway?

That seems by far the sillier thing.

Simple. If it had the power to lie and had complete control over Marethari, why didn't it do anything for 3 years while Marethari ran a tribe? Why sit around and wait for Merrill to come by, if chances are, she wouldn't. And if it wanted to help Merrill, why didn't it keep it's mouth shut? Or didn't stab Merrill when she was convinced? And it's end goal would be to get out using the mirror, because chances are, Marethari might have not bothered making a sacrifce, which came late in the game. It wouldn't help Merrill for 6 years, and then go "Oh look, someone wants to help me out out of fear. That's cool. Possess away."

Again, it sounds more like "I don't care if there's a cutscene that shows Merrill's house empty with blood on the ground, and Merrill's gone. I don't believe it".

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 28 mars 2011 - 03:01 .

[congealeddgtllvr]

ydaraishy wrote...

Again, philosophy. Would you rather be wrapped up safe in cotton wool for your entire life, or would you die knowing you at least had the freedom to live it the way you wanted?

(Funny, the arguments about what the "right" thing is to do with Merrill or not, is related to some aspects of political theory...)

I am not arguing that there is one "right" thing to do; I don't know if there is.  

From a roleplaying perspective, if you asked my Hawke if he'd be willing to let Merrill die knowing she at least had the freedom to live the way she wanted, he'd say no, not if it meant sacrificing herself for people that hated her anyway.  

Freedom is an interesting concept though.  Doesn't Merrill's freedom affect those around her, and their freedom?  I know she isn't as responsible for them as Marethari, but wasn't she training to be?  

[ydaraishy]

congealeddgtllvr wrote...

ydaraishy wrote...

Again, philosophy. Would you rather be wrapped up safe in cotton wool for your entire life, or would you die knowing you at least had the freedom to live it the way you wanted?

(Funny, the arguments about what the "right" thing is to do with Merrill or not, is related to some aspects of political theory...)

I am not arguing that there is one "right" thing to do; I don't know if there is.  

From a roleplaying perspective, if you asked my Hawke if he'd be willing to let Merrill die knowing she at least had the freedom to live the way she wanted, he'd say no, not if it meant sacrificing herself for people that hated her anyway.  

Freedom is an interesting concept though.  Doesn't Merrill's freedom affect those around her, and their freedom?  I know she isn't as responsible for them as Marethari, but wasn't she training to be?  

Yes, it all boils down to how you RP your Hawke. And yes, freedom is a fascinating concept indeed, and it's great that DA2 lets you explore this.

[Matterialize]

TMA LIVE wrote...
Simple. If it had the power to lie and had complete control over Marethari, why didn't it do anything for 3 years while Marethari ran a tribe? Why sit around and wait for Merrill to come by, if chances are, she wouldn't. And if it wanted to help Merrill, why didn't it keep it's mouth shut? Or didn't stab Merrill when she was convinced?

Maybe Marethari had more control than we think. Marebomination did say one truth, that she had to die for the demon to die. Was she being her own self there and speaking honestly? Or was the demon arrogant enough to risk that, and then panicked and lied when it became obvious it was about to lose? Could have been either, given that it is a pride demon.

Also, as the demon had been instructing her on how to repair the mirror, it may have intentionally given her incomplete advice and would therefore know she'd be coming back for more eventually. Though, why it didn't just instruct her to fully complete it in the first place is beyond me, if that were the case.

Modifié par Matterialize, 28 mars 2011 - 03:02 .

[congealeddgtllvr]

ydaraishy wrote...

Yes, it all boils down to how you RP your Hawke. And yes, freedom is a fascinating concept indeed, and it's great that DA2 lets you explore this.

I think so.  

[mesmerizedish]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Malevolence65 wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...
No, I mean the only way I can think of that makes it right is to take the stance that Merrill isn't capable of handling herself. That's what I mean by demeaning.

It's not really demeaning to think that Merrill (a young, inexperienced person) isn't capable of handling a powerful Pride Demon. She was in over her head.

How is Merrill young and inexperienced in Act 3? She's been adventuring with Hawke for 6 years.

Yes, exactly. If Merrill was "in over her head," she really shouldn't be hanging out with Hawke.

[TMA LIVE]

Matterialize wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...
Simple. If it had the power to lie and had complete control over Marethari, why didn't it do anything for 3 years while Marethari ran a tribe? Why sit around and wait for Merrill to come by, if chances are, she wouldn't. And if it wanted to help Merrill, why didn't it keep it's mouth shut? Or didn't stab Merrill when she was convinced?

Maybe Marethari had more control than we think. Marebomination did say one truth, that she had to die for the demon to die. Was she being her own self there and speaking honestly? Or was the demon arrogant enough to risk that, and then panicked and lied when it became obvious it was about to lose? Could have been either, given that it is a pride demon.

Also, as the demon had been instructing her on how to repair the mirror, it may have intentionally given her incomplete advice and would therefore know she'd be coming back for more eventually. Though, why it didn't just instruct her to fully complete it in the first place is beyond me, if that were the case.

I do think Marathari had control over it, or at least the will to control it for a while. I doubt she'd setup her own downfall by explaining everything, and allow the chance to kill her. And then lie about it in order to live. Marathari wanted to die, and wanted Merrill to understand what might have happened, and that she sacrificed herself for her.

The mirror is completed from what I remember. She just can't get it to work. I wish I could give the game another go, since I've only played one playthrough. There's a lot I could probably grab, knowing what I know now.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 28 mars 2011 - 03:12 .

[TMA LIVE]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Malevolence65 wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...
No, I mean the only way I can think of that makes it right is to take the stance that Merrill isn't capable of handling herself. That's what I mean by demeaning.

It's not really demeaning to think that Merrill (a young, inexperienced person) isn't capable of handling a powerful Pride Demon. She was in over her head.

How is Merrill young and inexperienced in Act 3? She's been adventuring with Hawke for 6 years.

Yes, exactly. If Merrill was "in over her head," she really shouldn't be hanging out with Hawke.

Well, he could be a cold blooded murderer who only cares about money...

[mesmerizedish]

TMA LIVE wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Malevolence65 wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...
No, I mean the only way I can think of that makes it right is to take the stance that Merrill isn't capable of handling herself. That's what I mean by demeaning.

It's not really demeaning to think that Merrill (a young, inexperienced person) isn't capable of handling a powerful Pride Demon. She was in over her head.

How is Merrill young and inexperienced in Act 3? She's been adventuring with Hawke for 6 years.

Yes, exactly. If Merrill was "in over her head," she really shouldn't be hanging out with Hawke.

Well, he could be a cold blooded murderer who only cares about money...

Huh? My point* is that Hawke does tons of stuff on a daily basis that's more dangerous than confronting a pride demon.

[EDIT] *well, Maria's point, which I'm appropriating, because we're in love

Modifié par ishmaeltheforsaken, 28 mars 2011 - 03:12 .

[Emperor Iaius I]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...
How is Merrill young and inexperienced in Act 3? She's been adventuring with Hawke for 6 years.

This is the kind of thing I always fail to realize... it's been so many years. 

And how many times has Hawke said, "I'm going to do something stupid and horribly dangerous. Come along and help me?"

Hawke: "Merrill, I'm going to journey into the Deep Roads for money. It's full of darkspawn and other terrors that have never seen the light of day while you're a young and inexperienced Dalish mage. Want to come with me?"
Merrill: "Sure Hawke!"

Hawke: "Merrill, the qunari are rampaging through the city. Instead of fleeing, we're going to head right into the battle zone and I'm going to go head-to-heard with the Arishok. Want to help me?"
Merrill: "Sounds exciting..."

Hawke: "Merrill, this boy is a powerful mage. We're going to enter the Fade and deal with the demons that have taken up residence in his head."
Merrill: "Count me in."

Hawke: "Merrill, there's are swarms of blood mages in this city. I'm going to hunt down groups of them and eliminate them all!"
Merrill: "Just let me get my cleaning cloth."

Hawke: "Look, it's a book/scroll of forbidden knowledge and when I read it, a group of powerful demons are summoned. I'm now going search for all of them so I can find a hidden lair where one of the most powerful of fade creatures has slumbered for centuries."
Merrill: "Oh, do you have to destr--? Guess you do."

Hawke: "It's a High Dragon! I've waited all game for this fight."
Merrill: "Right behind you."

---------
Merrill: "I've searched for years to fix this mirror and have decided the only way to do it is deal with a demon. I'm not sure what will happen, but it's possible it will possess me you'll have to fight it."
Hawke: "WTF?! That's too dangerous for someone as young and inexperienced as you!"

We should save this and quote you whenever this comes up.