17177 réponses à ce sujet

[Malevolence65]

Merrill is very good at killing things with her magic. She is not very good at assessing threats correctly. She is not very good at resisting demonic temptation.

[TMA LIVE]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Malevolence65 wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...
No, I mean the only way I can think of that makes it right is to take the stance that Merrill isn't capable of handling herself. That's what I mean by demeaning.

It's not really demeaning to think that Merrill (a young, inexperienced person) isn't capable of handling a powerful Pride Demon. She was in over her head.

How is Merrill young and inexperienced in Act 3? She's been adventuring with Hawke for 6 years.

Yes, exactly. If Merrill was "in over her head," she really shouldn't be hanging out with Hawke.

Well, he could be a cold blooded murderer who only cares about money...

Huh? My point* is that Hawke does tons of stuff on a daily basis that's more dangerous than confronting a pride demon.

[EDIT] *well, Maria's point, which I'm appropriating, because we're in love

Well, the thing is, a lot of people keep thinking that a demon just pops out and possess someone, and all it takes is a fireball. Yet if that's the case, I doubt so many mages would have just went "Ahhh! (poof) I'm an abomination now" at the end of the game. So something tells me there's more to it, and that the only way to fight a demon is to have it possess something first, unless it's a shade. Or go into the Fade and fight it.

I read that some can just enter you for just tapping into the fade. And being a bloodmage opens the door wider. Yet if that's the case, what's stopping so many mages from getting possessed just for doing magic?

There's just a lot of empty spaces that aren't explained.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 28 mars 2011 - 03:23 .

[mesmerizedish]

TMA LIVE wrote...

Well, the thing is, a lot of people keep thinking that a demon just pops out and possess someone, and all it takes is a fireball. Yet if that's the case, I doubt so many mages would have just went "Ahhh! (poof) I'm an abomination now" at the end of the game. So something tells me there's more too it, and that the only way to fight a demon is to have it possess something first, unless it's a shade.

I read that some can just enter you just for tapping into the fade. And being a bloodmage opens the door wider. Yet if that's the case, what's stopping so many mages from getting possessed just for doing magic?

There's just a lot of empty spaces that aren't explained.

I don't think that demons can force themselves on mages. They can be tricksy and conniving, but I think a mage still has to accept the demon.

[raziel1980]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...
How is Merrill young and inexperienced in Act 3? She's been adventuring with Hawke for 6 years.

This is the kind of thing I always fail to realize... it's been so many years. 

And how many times has Hawke said, "I'm going to do something stupid and horribly dangerous. Come along and help me?"

Hawke: "Merrill, I'm going to journey into the Deep Roads for money. It's full of darkspawn and other terrors that have never seen the light of day while you're a young and inexperienced Dalish mage. Want to come with me?"
Merrill: "Sure Hawke!"

Hawke: "Merrill, the qunari are rampaging through the city. Instead of fleeing, we're going to head right into the battle zone and I'm going to go head-to-heard with the Arishok. Want to help me?"
Merrill: "Sounds exciting..."

Hawke: "Merrill, this boy is a powerful mage. We're going to enter the Fade and deal with the demons that have taken up residence in his head."
Merrill: "Count me in."

Hawke: "Merrill, there's are swarms of blood mages in this city. I'm going to hunt down groups of them and eliminate them all!"
Merrill: "Just let me get my cleaning cloth."

Hawke: "Look, it's a book/scroll of forbidden knowledge and when I read it, a group of powerful demons are summoned. I'm now going search for all of them so I can find a hidden lair where one of the most powerful of fade creatures has slumbered for centuries."
Merrill: "Oh, do you have to destr--? Guess you do."

Hawke: "It's a High Dragon! I've waited all game for this fight."
Merrill: "Right behind you."

---------
Merrill: "I've searched for years to fix this mirror and have decided the only way to do it is deal with a demon. I'm not sure what will happen, but it's possible it will possess me you'll have to fight it."
Hawke: "WTF?! That's too dangerous for someone as young and inexperienced as you!"

We should save this and quote you whenever this comes up.

I agree with this completely! +100 friendship! 

[TMA LIVE]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

Well, the thing is, a lot of people keep thinking that a demon just pops out and possess someone, and all it takes is a fireball. Yet if that's the case, I doubt so many mages would have just went "Ahhh! (poof) I'm an abomination now" at the end of the game. So something tells me there's more too it, and that the only way to fight a demon is to have it possess something first, unless it's a shade.

I read that some can just enter you just for tapping into the fade. And being a bloodmage opens the door wider. Yet if that's the case, what's stopping so many mages from getting possessed just for doing magic?

There's just a lot of empty spaces that aren't explained.

I don't think that demons can force themselves on mages. They can be tricksy and conniving, but I think a mage still has to accept the demon.

Well, from that the codec says, they can, and can even do so from your dreams. But again, if that's the case, what's stopping millions of people from getting possessed?

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 28 mars 2011 - 03:29 .

[_Somebody]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

Well, the thing is, a lot of people keep thinking that a demon just pops out and possess someone, and all it takes is a fireball. Yet if that's the case, I doubt so many mages would have just went "Ahhh! (poof) I'm an abomination now" at the end of the game. So something tells me there's more too it, and that the only way to fight a demon is to have it possess something first, unless it's a shade.

I read that some can just enter you just for tapping into the fade. And being a bloodmage opens the door wider. Yet if that's the case, what's stopping so many mages from getting possessed just for doing magic?

There's just a lot of empty spaces that aren't explained.

I don't think that demons can force themselves on mages. They can be tricksy and conniving, but I think a mage still has to accept the demon.

I think First Enchanter Irving says that they can. He tells you that the reason you can save Connor is because he made a deal with the demon. If he was possessed forcefully, then you would have had to kill him. 

Modifié par Somebody, 28 mars 2011 - 03:29 .

[Matterialize]

I've always figured that you have to agree to let the demon possess you. In the case of mages doing it while under pressure, I assume the demon contacts them and says something like "hey, I can give you the power to squash these ****s. Just say the word." and they hastily agree since they're backed into a corner. It's always a promise of power or something, or assistance in achieving your goal.

Unless you're a badass like the Warden who can basically hold demons at gunpoint and make demands of them.

[TMA LIVE]

Somebody wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

Well, the thing is, a lot of people keep thinking that a demon just pops out and possess someone, and all it takes is a fireball. Yet if that's the case, I doubt so many mages would have just went "Ahhh! (poof) I'm an abomination now" at the end of the game. So something tells me there's more too it, and that the only way to fight a demon is to have it possess something first, unless it's a shade.

I read that some can just enter you just for tapping into the fade. And being a bloodmage opens the door wider. Yet if that's the case, what's stopping so many mages from getting possessed just for doing magic?

There's just a lot of empty spaces that aren't explained.

I don't think that demons can force themselves on mages. They can be tricksy and conniving, but I think a mage still has to accept the demon.

I think First Enchanter Irving says that they can. He tells you that the reason you can save Connor is because he made a deal with the demon. If he was possessed forcefully, then you would have had to kill him. 

Yet... why didn't we just do that with the Keeper?

I mean, she didn't do by force. I guess it involved an agreement. Why could have have happened?

EDIT: Oh wait, you need either a full human sacrifice (bloodmagic style), or a bunch of mages and Lyrium (traditional).

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 28 mars 2011 - 03:35 .

[Emperor Iaius I]

Yeah. That's sort of what happens repeatedly in this game. Mages backed into a corner, the Veil is thin and they hear the demon whispering, and so they give in, thinking "I'll show you!" to the templars.

[congealeddgtllvr]

Maria Caliban wrote...

And how many times has Hawke said, "I'm going to do something stupid and horribly dangerous. Come along and help me?"

Hawke: "Merrill, I'm going to journey into the Deep Roads for money. It's full of darkspawn and other terrors that have never seen the light of day while you're a young and inexperienced Dalish mage. Want to come with me?"
Merrill: "Sure Hawke!"

Hawke: "Merrill, the qunari are rampaging through the city. Instead of fleeing, we're going to head right into the battle zone and I'm going to go head-to-heard with the Arishok. Want to help me?"
Merrill: "Sounds exciting..."

Hawke: "Merrill, this boy is a powerful mage. We're going to enter the Fade and deal with the demons that have taken up residence in his head."
Merrill: "Count me in."

Hawke: "Merrill, there's are swarms of blood mages in this city. I'm going to hunt down groups of them and eliminate them all!"
Merrill: "Just let me get my cleaning cloth."

Hawke: "Look, it's a book/scroll of forbidden knowledge and when I read it, a group of powerful demons are summoned. I'm now going search for all of them so I can find a hidden lair where one of the most powerful of fade creatures has slumbered for centuries."
Merrill: "Oh, do you have to destr--? Guess you do."

Hawke: "It's a High Dragon! I've waited all game for this fight."
Merrill: "Right behind you."

---------
Merrill: "I've searched for years to fix this mirror and have decided the only way to do it is deal with a demon. I'm not sure what will happen, but it's possible it will possess me you'll have to fight it."
Hawke: "WTF?! That's too dangerous for someone as young and inexperienced as you!"

These examples are not really like the mirror though.  These are all problems you can settle with your fists.  Meanwhile, Merrill could fix the mirror and have it suddenly curse her the way it did Tamlen, if she does it wrong or the demons lies or something.  This is why I don't see refusing her the knife as being demeaning.  

[TMA LIVE]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Zjarcal wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...
How is Merrill young and inexperienced in Act 3? She's been adventuring with Hawke for 6 years.

This is the kind of thing I always fail to realize... it's been so many years. 

And how many times has Hawke said, "I'm going to do something stupid and horribly dangerous. Come along and help me?"

Hawke: "Merrill, I'm going to journey into the Deep Roads for money. It's full of darkspawn and other terrors that have never seen the light of day while you're a young and inexperienced Dalish mage. Want to come with me?"
Merrill: "Sure Hawke!"

Hawke: "Merrill, the qunari are rampaging through the city. Instead of fleeing, we're going to head right into the battle zone and I'm going to go head-to-heard with the Arishok. Want to help me?"
Merrill: "Sounds exciting..."

Hawke: "Merrill, this boy is a powerful mage. We're going to enter the Fade and deal with the demons that have taken up residence in his head."
Merrill: "Count me in."

Hawke: "Merrill, there's are swarms of blood mages in this city. I'm going to hunt down groups of them and eliminate them all!"
Merrill: "Just let me get my cleaning cloth."

Hawke: "Look, it's a book/scroll of forbidden knowledge and when I read it, a group of powerful demons are summoned. I'm now going search for all of them so I can find a hidden lair where one of the most powerful of fade creatures has slumbered for centuries."
Merrill: "Oh, do you have to destr--? Guess you do."

Hawke: "It's a High Dragon! I've waited all game for this fight."
Merrill: "Right behind you."

---------
Merrill: "I've searched for years to fix this mirror and have decided the only way to do it is deal with a demon. I'm not sure what will happen, but it's possible it will possess me you'll have to fight it."
Hawke: "WTF?! That's too dangerous for someone as young and inexperienced as you!"

Yeah, but Hawke's an invincible plot device. The plot says he won't die, and thus he won't die. He only dies as a Game Over. It's like the Warden. The only way to kill him is to sacrifice yourself, and that's only possible because the plot allows it. If it doesn't, you're superman. Or how characters can only truly die if the main character allows it to happen. If they don't include that in the plot, then the characters are invinsible. They even don't get pregnate despite having unprotected sex for 3 years. Why, because the plot didn't allow it. Or you don't get arrested despite throwing ice blasts in front of Templars. Realistically, it should've happened. But it didn't.

It simply doesn't happen because it's controlled. You can't have the Warden get possessed. You can't have the Warden fail. You can't get a STD and die. etc. It only happens if it's meaningful to the plot. However, that doesn't mean it couldn't happen. It just means the plot makes the characters bulletproof when it should've happened.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 28 mars 2011 - 03:52 .

[Emperor Iaius I]

Feynriel, Forbidden Knowledge, and dealing with demon-fueled mages aren't like that? All of those can have unforeseen demonic consequences.

Like I've said before, the difference between friendship/rivalry is whether you have faith in Merrill or not.

[congealeddgtllvr]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

Feynriel, Forbidden Knowledge, and dealing with demon-fueled mages aren't like that? All of those can have unforeseen demonic consequences.

Like I've said before, the difference between friendship/rivalry is whether you have faith in Merrill or not.

I don't really see it like that.  I see it as the difference between caring about Merrill being alive or not.  

[Maria Caliban]

As I understand it, forcable possession can occur. The weaker the mage's will, the more likely this can happen. A smart demon is going to trick someone or make a deal, however.

The rage demon you battle in the mage origin would have possessed your body if you'd lost. The pride demon would have done the same if you'd let him enter you.

TMA LIVE wrote...

Yeah, but Hawke's an invincible plot device.

If you're going on out-of-character explanations, then it doesn't matter whether you rival Merrill or not. Either way, she lives and Merethari dies.

All companions can only die when the plot says they can die.

congealeddgtllvr wrote...

I don't really see it like that.  I see it as the difference between caring about Merrill being alive or not.

By the time you get to the quest that might lead to her death, it's Act 3 and you've probably locked into rival or friend.

How is giving Merrill the carving-knife anymore dangerous than taking her to the Deep Roads? Or having her battle the qunari? Or taking her into the Fade?

What does destroying a book of forbidden knowledge or handing mages over to the Templars have to do with Merrill's safety?

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 28 mars 2011 - 04:00 .

[Malevolence65]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...
Like I've said before, the difference between friendship/rivalry is whether you have faith in Merrill or not.

I really disagree.

Here,  I can come up with stuff like that too.

The difference between friendship/rivalry is whether or not you care about Merrill's safety

[TMA LIVE]

Maria Caliban wrote...

As I understand it, forcable possession can occur. The weaker the mage's will, the more likely this can happen. A smart demon is going to trick someone or make a deal, however.

The rage demon you battle in the mage origin would have possessed your body if you'd lost. The pride demon would have done the same if you'd let him enter you.

Again, that's a game over death, not a plot death. You don't get an ending, and able to import. Or continue the story as another character. It's just "do it again".

Maria Caliban wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

Yeah, but Hawke's an invincible plot device.

If
you're going on out-of-character explanations, then it doesn't matter
whether you rival Merrill or not. Either way, she lives and Merethari
dies.

All companions can only die when the plot says they can die.

That's my point. When people say "Well, I played a Bloodmage, and I never got possessed", well it didn't happen because plotwise you're invisible. It'd only happen if the writers make a scenario where it'll happen. But that doesn't mean it can't happen, or it couldn't. It just means we didn't see what could of happened if things didn't go the way they did.

Either way, we don't know if Merrill would have gotten possessed or not. It's more of based of faith.

[Silentmode]

congealeddgtllvr wrote...

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

Feynriel, Forbidden Knowledge, and dealing with demon-fueled mages aren't like that? All of those can have unforeseen demonic consequences.

Like I've said before, the difference between friendship/rivalry is whether you have faith in Merrill or not.

I don't really see it like that. I see it as the difference between caring about Merrill being alive or not.

I don't agree with either of you. I got the sense the freindship path leans more to being supportive of Merrill and what she's trying to accomplish. While the rivalry path is about Hawke trying to protect her from herself... in a harsh "You're a naive idiot." or nice "I'm doing this for your own good." kind of way.

Modifié par Silentmode, 28 mars 2011 - 04:07 .

[TMA LIVE]

Maria Caliban wrote...
How is giving Merrill the carving-knife anymore dangerous than taking her to the Deep Roads? Or having her battle the qunari? Or taking her into the Fade?
 

Well, it's just as dangerous. Carver or Beth die for just being there if you don't bring Anders. And taking her into the Fade causes you to kill her (and thank your lucky stars she didn't die for real), or her to kill you.

The difference is, chances are she won't successed, and yet you're allowing it based off faith, or because you want to get into her pants friendship style, and don't know about the rival romance.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 28 mars 2011 - 04:10 .

[congealeddgtllvr]

Maria Caliban wrote...

By the time you get to the quest that might lead to her death, it's Act 3 and you've probably locked into rival or friend.

How is giving Merrill the carving-knife anymore dangerous than taking her to the Deep Roads? Or having her battle the qunari? Or taking her into the Fade?

What does destroying a book of forbidden knowledge or handing mages over to the Templars have to do with Merrill's safety?

Like I said, the mirror could just curse her.  I have no control over that; if I'm fighting a qunari I can stop him from hitting Merrill.   

And I wasn't metagaming to get the Merrill romance.  It just happened that way.  Broadly speaking though, the decision to hand over mages to the templars shows a priority of security over freedom, as does destroying a book with demons inside that someone might stumble on.  

[TMA LIVE]

Silentmode wrote...

congealeddgtllvr wrote...

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

Feynriel, Forbidden Knowledge, and dealing with demon-fueled mages aren't like that? All of those can have unforeseen demonic consequences.

Like I've said before, the difference between friendship/rivalry is whether you have faith in Merrill or not.

I don't really see it like that. I see it as the difference between caring about Merrill being alive or not.

I don't agree with either of you. I got the sense the freindship path leans more to being supportive of Merrill and what she's trying to accomplish. While the rivalry path is about Hawke trying to protect her from herself... in a harsh "You're a naive idiot." or nice "I'm doing this for your own good." kind of way.

And what is she trying to accomplish? How is this Mirror going to change everything, that it's worth her own death? And I want her words, and not what you think the mirror could do.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 28 mars 2011 - 04:15 .

[congealeddgtllvr]

Silentmode wrote...
I don't agree with either of you. I got the sense the freindship path leans more to being supportive of Merrill and what she's trying to accomplish. While the rivalry path is about Hawke trying to protect her from herself... in a harsh "You're a naive idiot." or nice "I'm doing this for your own good." kind of way.

Well, I don't think Merrill is an idiot.  She's quite brilliant in a lot of ways.  

Modifié par congealeddgtllvr, 28 mars 2011 - 04:17 .

[TMA LIVE]

Malevolence65 wrote...

Emperor Iaius I wrote...
Like I've said before, the difference between friendship/rivalry is whether you have faith in Merrill or not.

I really disagree.

Here,  I can come up with stuff like that too.

The difference between friendship/rivalry is whether or not you care about Merrill's safety

That's also true. I can't believe I've read that so many people didn't believe in merrill, but helped her anyways because they didn't want to be "mean" and also wanted to romance her. Sounds pretty criminally irresponsible if something actually happened.

[Emperor Iaius I]

Maria: Would the demon have possessed you if you lost? I'm not certain anymore. Doesn't a death in the Fade make you Tranquil? Ergo, those mages who fail the Harrowing are automatically Tranquil?

Granted, that doesn't match up with the fact that there are Templars at the Harrowing in case you get possessed, so. . .

Malevolence65 wrote...

Emperor Iaius I wrote...
Like I've said before, the difference between friendship/rivalry is whether you have faith in Merrill or not.

I really disagree.

Here,  I can come up with stuff like that too.

The difference between friendship/rivalry is whether or not you care about Merrill's safety

Sure, except I'm not sure to what extent yours is true because it depends on subjective judgment. Regardless of which side of this discussion you're on, though, if you take the rivalry path, it's because you don't think she can handle the demon.

[mesmerizedish]

Malevolence65 wrote...

Emperor Iaius I wrote...
Like I've said before, the difference between friendship/rivalry is whether you have faith in Merrill or not.

I really disagree.

Here,  I can come up with stuff like that too.

The difference between friendship/rivalry is whether or not you care about Merrill's safety

Well, you're both saying the same thing, just from different PoVs. I can either say "I don't have faith in Merrill," or you can say "I want to keep Merrill safe." Both mean that you're not confident that Merrill can keep herself safe.

Conversely, you can say "I have faith in Merrill," or you can say "I don't care about Merrill's wellbeing." Both imply an unwillingness to intervene on her behalf.

The distinction is entirely one of motivation. After all, it's a roleplaying game

[Silentmode]

TMA LIVE wrote...

Silentmode wrote...

congealeddgtllvr wrote...

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

Feynriel, Forbidden Knowledge, and dealing with demon-fueled mages aren't like that? All of those can have unforeseen demonic consequences.

Like I've said before, the difference between friendship/rivalry is whether you have faith in Merrill or not.

I don't really see it like that. I see it as the difference between caring about Merrill being alive or not.

I don't agree with either of you. I got the sense the freindship path leans more to being supportive of Merrill and what she's trying to accomplish. While the rivalry path is about Hawke trying to protect her from herself... in a harsh "You're a naive idiot." or nice "I'm doing this for your own good." kind of way.

And what is she trying to accomplish? How is this Mirror going to change everything, that it's worth her own death? And I want her words, and not what you think the mirror could do.

Hold on a minute. I never said I thought one path was the correct one. Just that from playing both now that's the way the two paths felt to me coming from Hawke's perspective. And of course Merrill believes that the Eluvian can somehow help restore lost pieces of Elven history. How I don't know.