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[mesmerizedish]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

Untrue. Even Fenris notes that there are probably honorable magisters. Ergo, all it takes to get ahead in Tevinter is talent, FULL STOP. Value judgments of third parties don't enter into the picture.

But, he's never met one. Danarius certainly wasn't one.

Tevinter isn't a pure meritocracy. Don't delude yourself into thinking that it is. What it takes to get ahead in Tevinter is power, the willingness to go to any lengths to get ahead (which often means committing acts that would place one squarely in the "evil" box), or the luck to be in a situation where you can kiss ass hardcore (e.g. Fenris's sister).

For the record, selling out your own brother, in the context that she did, is a pretty evil thing to do.

[EDIT] And don't confuse one snide comment about Fenris's sister for an actual argument. Your respsonse doesn't address the actual point that Danarius is vile. Of course, your first response didn't either :innocent:

Modifié par ishmaeltheforsaken, 29 mars 2011 - 02:47 .

[Emperor Iaius I]

He doesn't need to have met one. Acknowledging that they surely exist is testimony that irredeemable evil is not a necessary condition for advancement.

How people choose to respond to the merit principle and to what extent their ambition drives is not a characteristic of the system: it's a characteristic of the individuals making those choices.

As far as "selling out"--yes, it's an awful thing to report a criminal. Except, you know, the bit about how he put her life in danger by contacting her and therefore making her an accessory. Shall we forget that he put her in an impossible position and then judge her as an evil person? I do not possess that degree of gall.

edit: What point? That he's vile because you said so? What exactly am I addressing here?

Modifié par Emperor Iaius I, 29 mars 2011 - 02:52 .

[mesmerizedish]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

How people choose to respond to the merit principle and to what extent their ambition drives is not a characteristic of the system: it's a characteristic of the individuals making those choices.

The world doesn't exist as a platonic ideal. The system may be fine in theory, but it's tainted by the way real people practice it. Real-world communism is a good example. No implementation of the system has ever made a country anything other than a dictatorship.

As far as "selling out"--yes, it's an awful thing to report a criminal. Except, you know, the bit about how he put her life in danger by contacting her and therefore making her an accessory. Shall we forget that he put her in an impossible position and then judge her as an evil person? I do not possess that degree of gall.

I do I don't think she's evil. But what she did was. He did not put her in an impossible position. She could have just ignored the letter. Or, *gasp* she could have actually acted in good faith and come to Kirkwall without involving Danarius. But, she chose to sell him out, at no one's behest but her own ambitions'.

edit: What point? That he's vile because you said so? What exactly am I addressing here?

Oh, no. You argued that he wasn't vile, because he was polite and sent you a nice letter.

[Blackout62]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Malevolence65 wrote...

If you play on PC you can get a mod from the Dragon Age Nexus that lets you do that.

You can be damn sure that as soon as people start doing mesh edits, I'm going to be forcing some talented young artist to add the scarf to the second armor.

I'll hold down hypothetical talented young artist for you. That armor with it's beautiful abalone shell-esque multicolored shine would look great with an also shiny silk scarf but I don't think the original green one would look that good. I'll go hunt down a good texture artist.

Modifié par Blackout62, 29 mars 2011 - 03:03 .

[mesmerizedish]

Blackout62 wrote...

I'll hold down hypothetical talented young artist for you. Although that armor with it's beauty similiar to an abalone shell would look great with a also shiny silk scarf I don't think the original green one would look that good. I'll go hunt down a good texture artist.

Bah, I can do a simple recolor. And (coincidence of coincidences?!), the tools now exist to export DAII meshes into 3DSMax. So, Merrill's scarf IS TOTALLY GOING TO HAPPEN?!?!

[Mr.House]

I love this thread. ishmaeltheforsaken always writes gold.

[Blackout62]

@ishmaeltheforsaken Oh... good. *drops hostage taking knife from behind back onto the ground where it sticks into the floor* We won't need to force anyone then.

Speaking of knives I'd like to posit that even though we see it before the events of Mirror Image that the arulin'holm is the new murder-knife. Just imagine it using an ancient elven carving tool to cut throats and stab Anders in the back. I don't know if thats awesome or an insult to every elf in Thedas.

Modifié par Blackout62, 29 mars 2011 - 03:16 .

[Malevolence65]

As long as it makes her neck seem less long and it doesn't show the stupid chainmail neck covering, I would download it. I don't care that Elves have longer necks than humans, but Merrill's second costume is just ridiculous, her neck is like a foot long.

[Emperor Iaius I]

The world doesn't exist as a platonic ideal. The system may be fine in theory, but it's tainted by the way real people practice it. Real-world communism is a good example. No implementation of the system has ever made a country anything other than a dictatorship.

Juxtaposing merit and communism? Funny. Tainting, too, is quite funny. Had the Maker and his harlot never turned against the Imperium, there would be little need for this argument: the golden era would have continued.

I do I don't think she's evil. But what she did was. He did not put her in an impossible position. She could have just ignored the letter. Or, *gasp* she could have actually acted in good faith and come to Kirkwall without involving Danarius. But, she chose to sell him out, at no one's behest but her own ambitions'.

That's not how derivative liability works. Mere receipt of the letter makes her an accessory. Coming to Kirkwall is worse. Good faith is irrelevant. He put her life in danger the moment he wrote to her, and he did so because he was a selfish jerk. But let's put all the blame on the poor sister he endangered--the poor sister who did the right thing and happened to get rewarded for it.

Oh, no. You argued that he wasn't vile, because he was polite and sent you a nice letter.

Yes. Your response was, essentially, "yes he is."

Modifié par Emperor Iaius I, 29 mars 2011 - 03:09 .

[mesmerizedish]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

Juxtaposing merit and communism? Funny. Tainting, too, is quite funny. Had the Maker and his harlot never turned against the Imperium, there would be little need for this argument: the golden era would have continued.

...

That's not how derivative liability works. Mere receipt of the letter makes her an accessory. Coming to Kirkwall is worse. Good faith is irrelevant. He put her life in danger the moment he wrote to her, and he did so because he was a selfish jerk. But let's put all the blame on the poor sister he endangered--the poor sister who did the right thing and happened to get rewarded for it.

Going to Kirkwall is better, because she wouldn't be subject to Tevinter law. Writing to his sister (who is a free woman, remember) was not being a selfish jerk. Being a selfish jerk would have been, say, recieving a letter from your escaped slave brother and taking to the magister who owned him in hopes of being rewarded for it. Look, I don't like Fenris any more than anyone else, but in Kirkwall, he wasn't a criminal, he wasn't a slave, he was a free man.

Yes. Your response was, essentially, "yes he is."

My response was that polite and vile aren't mutually exclusive.

[Emperor Iaius I]

Going to Kirkwall is better, because she wouldn't be subject to Tevinter law. Writing to his sister (who is a free woman, remember) was not being a selfish jerk. Being a selfish jerk would have been, say, recieving a letter from your escaped slave brother and taking to the magister who owned him in hopes of being rewarded for it. Look, I don't like Fenris any more than anyone else, but in Kirkwall, he wasn't a criminal, he wasn't a slave, he was a free man.

Yeah, see, but the problem isn't that Fenris is a fugitive slave (that's another issue entirely), it's that he murdered a magister. Going to Kirkwall wouldn't solve anything because: I. as noted, magisters can go there too and II. with all the troubles in Kirkwall, I doubt they'd object to extraditing an elf. They treat elves worse than the Tevinters do, after all.

My response was that polite and vile aren't mutually exclusive.

So again I ask: why is he vile?

Modifié par Emperor Iaius I, 29 mars 2011 - 03:38 .

[Captain Noodle]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

Going to Kirkwall is better, because she wouldn't be subject to Tevinter law. Writing to his sister (who is a free woman, remember) was not being a selfish jerk. Being a selfish jerk would have been, say, recieving a letter from your escaped slave brother and taking to the magister who owned him in hopes of being rewarded for it. Look, I don't like Fenris any more than anyone else, but in Kirkwall, he wasn't a criminal, he wasn't a slave, he was a free man.

Yeah, see, but the problem isn't that Fenris is a fugitive slave (that's another issue entirely), it's that he murdered a magister. Going to Kirkwall wouldn't solve anything because: I. as noted, magisters can go there too and II. with all the troubles in Kirkwall, I doubt they'd object to extraditing an elf. They treat elves worse than the Tevinters do, after all.

My response was that polite and vile aren't mutually exclusive.

So again I ask: why is he vile?

The slavery, I think.  People tend to find  a lifestyle that encourages stomping on the throats of those underneath you to get what you want pretty disgusting.

[Emperor Iaius I]

It's different from the practice in Orlais how? It's different from the alienage culture how?

Ah, right, it's different in that slaves in Tevinter actually have prospects of moving up in society.

I suspect people are reacting to the word "slavery" and not the reality that it's much worse for elves everywhere else.

Modifié par Emperor Iaius I, 29 mars 2011 - 03:47 .

[mesmerizedish]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

Yeah, see, but the problem isn't that Fenris is a fugitive slave (that's another issue entirely), it's that he murdered a magister. Going to Kirkwall wouldn't solve anything because: I. as noted, magisters can go there too and II. with all the troubles in Kirkwall, I doubt they'd object to extraditing an elf. They treat elves worse than the Tevinters do, after all.

He murdered a magister? Really? Looked like self-defense to me. After all, the only witness was... oh, hey! Me again!

So again I ask: why is he vile?

He's not vile because of the slavery. Slavery as a practice runs counter to my own ideas about morality and ethical right, but he's not really saying "salvery is cool and right, guys!" He just owns slaves. He's vile because of the way he demeans Fenris, the way he turns his sister against him, the way he owns him, the way he sneers when he talks to Fenris... he's drenched in "I'm better than you, slave." And guess what? That "slave" ends up killing him. So, the attitude isn't justified in the slightest.

[Emperor Iaius I]

I'm really glad that there isn't a mode in this game where Hawke serves as a judge, because you terrify me.

So he's vile because of his attitude? It's not justified because he died? Would it be better if he won? How about how Fenris admits he cannot take on Danarius without Hawke's help? Danarius certainly doesn't need his soldiers to deal with Fenris. How does that play into your calculus?

Personally, after all the crap Fenris put everybody else through--telling us how we needed to be locked up, taunting Merrill about the death of her mother-figure--and really, the constant badgering and sheer hatred he's spewed towards that sweet little elf is probably why, ultimately, Fenris had it coming. We allow Fenris to treat Merrill like she's refuse, but oh Danarius is so awful for turning the tables on him?

No. Fenris got what he deserved when I handed him back to his master. Good riddance.

[DalishRanger]

Malevolence65 wrote...

As long as it makes her neck seem less long and it doesn't show the stupid chainmail neck covering, I would download it. I don't care that Elves have longer necks than humans, but Merrill's second costume is just ridiculous, her neck is like a foot long.

This is the exact same issue I have with her second outfit. In and of itself, it looks pretty neat (though I'd prefer more color on it - and yeah, I know there's a mod recolor of it). But with the long elf necks + chainmail neck cover = ugh. Her neck looks fine on its own, but the chainmail makes it look awkward.

And that's why I have that handy mod that keeps her first outfit, even when romanced. And why I play certain games like these on the PC instead of my Xbox.

Modifié par DalishRanger, 29 mars 2011 - 04:09 .

[Maria Caliban]

Malevolence65 wrote...

Seeing that piece of fanart by Pseudocognition made me think of something. Do any of you think that there's a Thedas equivalent of Cannabis? If so, do you think Merrill would use it? Dalish Elves are supposed to be in tune with nature, right?
Hey, someone has to bring up the weird discussion topics 

Actually, yes. Elfroot, when smoked, does interesting things. I think it's elfroot = pot, deathroot = opium.

Have you ever seen the Merrill photoshops from last year?

[Emperor Iaius I]

I agree about the long neck bit. I made a quick little mod that changes her second outfit from the chainmail bit to the standard Dalish armor (it's basically the same armor, except without the chainmail and in a less blinding color--you see some of the warriors wearing it at Sundermont).

Two downsides:

I. Her neck is still long, though it's not as bad without the chainmail.

II. Worse, the skin tone of the armor doesn't match the skintone of her head and upper neck. I have no idea why this is the case. I'm guessing it's because of the shading on the diffuse map, because there's nothing in the tint map to indicate that there ought to be problems. Oddly, though, *other* elves don't have this problem, and they use the same skin tint as Merrill--somehow she must have some sort of makeup effect on her skin that makes her skin extra pale, or something.

[mesmerizedish]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

I'm really glad that there isn't a mode in this game where Hawke serves as a judge, because you terrify me.

I would own that game made

So he's vile because of his attitude?

Yes.

It's not justified because he died?

I think that's an objective fact. If it were justified, he wouldn't have died. That's what justification means.

Would it be better if he won?

Better? No. But his attitude would have been based on fact instead of emotion.

How about how Fenris admits he cannot take on Danarius without Hawke's help? Danarius certainly doesn't need his soldiers to deal with Fenris. How does that play into your calculus?

I think that Fenris's wisdom in enlisting Hawke's aid is part of what makes Fenris better than Danarius. No one said he had to take Danarius alone. At least, I didn't.

Personally, after all the crap Fenris put everybody else through--telling us how we needed to be locked up, taunting Merrill about the death of her mother-figure--and really, the constant badgering and sheer hatred he's spewed towards that sweet little elf is probably why, ultimately, Fenris had it coming. We allow Fenris to treat Merrill like she's refuse, but oh Danarius is so awful for turning the tables on him?

I'm not saying that Fenris is a rainbow. He's a douche. I know that. But Danarius is douchier. Need I remind you of the time he murdered a child to impress some other senators?

No. Fenris got what he deserved when I handed him back to his master. Good riddance.

No one deserves to be a slave. However much better elven slaves have it in the Imperium, it's still unethical. I'd have ****-slapped Fenris to Par Vollen and back, because he's vile too! But I'd still kill Danarius in a heartbeat.

[Maria Caliban]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

Juxtaposing merit and communism? Funny. Tainting, too, is quite funny. Had the Maker and his harlot never turned against the Imperium, there would be little need for this argument: the golden era would have continued.

...

"If something I've said sounds crazy, it's probably in-character" - Emperor Iaius I

See also: "Demons and spirits are the same creature. I was thrilled the Shale DLC allowed us to arrange a mutually beneficial spirit/host arrangement for Kitty and the young girl." - Maria

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

It's different from the practice in Orlais how? It's different from the alienage culture how?

"X isn't bad because Y is also bad" is a rather poor argument. That slavery exists in Orlais doesn't mean it's fine for slavery to exist in Tevinter.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 29 mars 2011 - 04:19 .

[mesmerizedish]

Maria Caliban wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

Juxtaposing merit and communism? Funny. Tainting, too, is quite funny. Had the Maker and his harlot never turned against the Imperium, there would be little need for this argument: the golden era would have continued.

...

"If something I've said sounds crazy, it's probably in-character" - Emperor Iaius I

Oh, I understood the in-character stuff 

See also: "Demons and spirits are the same creature. I was thrilled the Shale DLC allowed us to arrange a mutually beneficial spirit/host arrangement for Kitty and the young girl." - Maria

I can't objectively comment on this.

[EDIT] BUT HOW 'BOUT THAT MERRILL, EH?!?!?!?!

:innocent:

Modifié par ishmaeltheforsaken, 29 mars 2011 - 04:18 .

[LobselVith8]

Emperor Iaius, since Hawke was acknowledged as being descended from Parlathan and the in-game codex for the Staff mentions Parlathan starting out as a Magister, does that come into play for you?

[triviumisgodly]

I don't know what to do about my canon Hawke regarding Merrill. If shes right about the Eluvian then the Elves could regain some of their lost wisdom. If shes wrong then she will either be possessed or dead. I'm leaning more to the rivalry path simply because of Flemeth's advice to Merrill "The path is darkest with your eyes shut" referring to her obsession with the Eluvian. As far as I can tell Flemeth is always right in her prophecies. I can only hope for an expansion or another DA game involving her to see where each of these paths lead. Or Mary Kirby could step in and give us all the answers.

One thing I have noticed is that only Merrills friendship/rivalry can be debated to the extent it has been. No other companion in this game is as effected by the outcome of your personal decisions regarding them. They inevitably stay the same whether you take them during the rivalry/friendship route, but with Merrill you actually make a major difference for her.

[Maria Caliban]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

See also: "Demons and spirits are the same creature. I was thrilled the Shale DLC allowed us to arrange a mutually beneficial spirit/host arrangement for Kitty and the young girl." - Maria

I can't objectively comment on this.

I don't recall I've ever asked you to objectively comment on anything.

I was a smidge disappointed that demons were nothing but pinatas in this game. We didn't even get something interesting like the one that ensorcelled the Templar in the tower. The Sebastion DLC was the only semi-satisfying encounter.

[mesmerizedish]

Maria Caliban wrote...

I don't recall I've ever asked you to objectively comment on anything.

News at 11 *

I was a smidge disappointed that demons were nothing but pinatas in this game. We didn't even get something interesting like the one that ensorcelled the Templar in the tower. The Sebastion DLC was the only semi-satisfying encounter.

/agree




[EDIT] *Also, almost totally negates the point of the comment /indignance

Modifié par ishmaeltheforsaken, 29 mars 2011 - 04:27 .