17177 réponses à ce sujet

[Maria Caliban]

Malevolence65 wrote...


This is annoying. I could do a DeviantArt version too.

You don't like all the Anders/Hawke?

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

I don't recall I've ever asked you to objectively comment on anything.

News at 11

What? I like your nonobjective opinions. Objective statements are typically things I'm already aware of. Subjective ones provide me insight to viewpoints other than my own.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 29 mars 2011 - 04:28 .

[mesmerizedish]

Maria Caliban wrote...

What? I like your nonobjective opinions. Objective statements are typically things I'm already aware of. Subjective ones provide me insight to viewpoints other than my own.

...

Oh.

The point of my comment was that any substantive statement would have shown a strong pro-Maria bias and I didn't want to expose myself to attack from Emperor Iaius I.

[Karlov]

>A>

uh i added more.

[Emperor Iaius I]

I think that's an objective fact. If it were justified, he wouldn't have died. That's what justification means.

Not quite. I won't be a pedant about the definition itself, but I will point out that that superiority has a variety of origins and isn't foreclosed by the brute strength of another.

Better? No. But his attitude would have been based on fact instead of emotion.

...errr, emotion? Ο τι? 

What emotion is this?

I think that Fenris's wisdom in enlisting Hawke's aid is part of what makes Fenris better than Danarius. No one said he had to take Danarius alone. At least, I didn't.

So a rat is superior to a dragon because it can attack in swarms?

I'm not saying that Fenris is a rainbow. He's a douche. I know that. But Danarius is douchier. Need I remind you of the time he murdered a child to impress some other senators?

I'm sure he had his reasons. Perhaps the child stole from a cookie jar? I certainly would have let the child go with a mild rap on the knuckles, or perhaps made him sit in the corner, but I'm not about to judge Danarius's child-rearing.

More seriously though, that whole discussion perplexed me. I don't think a medieval society really thinks the same way about children as we do.

No one deserves to be a slave. However much better elven slaves have it in the Imperium, it's still unethical. I'd have ****-slapped Fenris to Par Vollen and back, because he's vile too! But I'd still kill Danarius in a heartbeat.

Eh. Slavery is a form of employment where the right of termination lies solely in the employer. In societies where there exist better alternatives: such as fair, non-feudal paid employment (see: early modern Europe and U.S.A.), then it's absolutely unjustifiable. In a society where slavery exists everywhere, just under other names, it's absolutely relevant which system has the best conditions.

Maria:

"If something I've said sounds crazy, it's probably in-character" - Emperor Iaius I

See also: "Demons and spirits are the same creature. I was thrilled the Shale DLC allowed us to arrange a mutually beneficial spirit/host arrangement for Kitty and the young girl." - Maria

I loved Kitty! So adorable. So was Amalia. I couldn't bear to separate them.

"X isn't bad because Y is also bad" is a rather poor argument. That slavery exists in Orlais doesn't mean it's fine for slavery to exist in Tevinter.

Sure it does. You look at contemporary circumstances. Y'know, I really wish they had elective government in Thedas. They're all monsters.

Doesn't quite make sense though. It's an unreasonable standard. It's an unreasonable expectation.

LobselVith:

Emperor Iaius, since Hawke was acknowledged as being descended from Parlathan and the in-game codex for the Staff mentions Parlathan starting out as a Magister, does that come into play for you?

Erm. Yeah, I have to be straight with you: I had no idea. I knew about Hawke's putative descent and I knew about Parlathan's role in unifying Ferelden with Calenhad, but I'd never read the codex entry.

But you're right, it's there. The misspelling of Imperium aside, the codex is pretty clear. Odd: the staff looks more elven than Tevinter, to me. I'm really not sure what to think. It definitely reinforces my decision to make Hawke a mage and give him/her Tevinter features, though.

I need to think more on this... if Hawke is descended from a magister, suddenly I feel like I have to revisit my reluctance to write a Hawke/Merrill romance.

[jlb524]

I have a question for blood mage Hawkes: is this magic learned from Merrill or did Hawke pick it up somewhere else?

I don't know if this was asked before, but I've always wondered if BM Hawke learns it from her.

[Matterialize]

It is magic learned from none other than the all-powerful "Specialization Point".

[Blackout62]

@jlb524  That would make sense or Hawke could ironically figure it out after Anders asks Merrill if she learned blood magic by accidentally cutting herself and realizing she could augment her magic with her blood. I like to think my blood mage Hawke heard that and spent the rest of that day at home cutting her arm till she figured it out.

Modifié par Blackout62, 29 mars 2011 - 05:07 .

[mesmerizedish]

[quote]Emperor Iaius I wrote...

Not quite. I won't be a pedant about the definition itself, but I will point out that that superiority has a variety of origins and isn't foreclosed by the brute strength of another.[/quote]

Can I beat him? No? Then I'm inferior.

[quote]...errr, emotion? Ο τι? 

What emotion is this?[/quote]

Not a specific emotion, but emotion as opposed to reason. Pathos.

[quote]So a rat is superior to a dragon because it can attack in swarms?[/quote]

Only if the rats can kill the dragon.

[quote]I'm sure he had his reasons. Perhaps the child stole from a cookie jar? I certainly would have let the child go with a mild rap on the knuckles, or perhaps made him sit in the corner, but I'm not about to judge Danarius's child-rearing.[/quote]

You're reaching, here

[/quote]More seriously though, that whole discussion perplexed me. I don't think a medieval society really thinks the same way about children as we do.[/quote]

How do you mean? (I'm not challenging you at this point... I just don't quite understand what you're saying)

[quote]Eh. Slavery is a form of employment where the right of termination lies solely in the employer. In societies where there exist better alternatives: such as fair, non-feudal paid employment (see: early modern Europe and U.S.A.), then it's absolutely unjustifiable. In a society where slavery exists everywhere, just under other names, it's absolutely relevant which system has the best conditions.[/quote]

Slavery isn't "a form of emplyment." It's the ownership of another person. That's unjustifiable, regardless of any other circumstances.

[Emperor Iaius I]

Can I beat him? No? Then I'm inferior.

Congratulations. You've discovered the organizing principle of the thugocracy.

I'll be sure to tell all those scientists and artists out there that they're inferior because you can steal their lunch money.

I'll also tell them they're vile if they feel any better than those bullies, because how DARE they feel proud of their accomplishments if they're unable to beat up other people.

Not a specific emotion, but emotion as opposed to reason. Pathos.

Pathos is not synonymous with "emotion" and I will smack every misinformed English teacher that insists that it is. Pathos is an appeal to emotion, if you must be reductive about it. Danarius does not go "oh, woe is me. I've had such a terrible life." Notwithstanding the fact that this is Fenris's ratio vivendi, it makes absolutely no sense. You do not internally play for sympathy with yourself and then say "I feel sorry for myself, I'm superior!"

You're also missing the point. Just because your reason isn't satisfied doesn't mean there isn't a rational basis for thinking so. A rational basis test, in fact, is one of the lowest thresholds to satisfy. There are, I hope you know, many reasons that an individual can feel proud aside from who has the bigger muscles.

How do you mean? (I'm not challenging you at this point... I just don't quite understand what you're saying)

We, in the 21st century think, "what sort of monster does [insert awful deed here] to a child?!"

People in the 12th century think, "oh, it's just a child."

Slavery isn't "a form of emplyment." It's the ownership of another person. That's unjustifiable, regardless of any other circumstances.

21st century. Context is important. You accomplish nothing by judging the past--or a setting resembling the past--by modern standards. Congratulations, you can feel outraged by things that violate basic tenants of modern society! It's the definition of low-hanging fruit.

It's not insightful. It's not incisive. It's not sophisticated. It's not even interesting. Yeah, they keep slaves. So what? More interesting is how this practice--slavery--compares to the practices of other nations of Thedas, especially those which revile slavery. We've discussed how Tevinter slavery isn't actually as bad as conditions elsewhere. That's interesting.

As far as the distinction you raise between employment and ownership, well--I don't want to go on an extended discourse on property and contract law, but to a certain extent, an employee gives up their free agency and effectively gives their employer an ownership interest in their labor. A slave is essentially a tenanted employee: see ancient Rome.

Modifié par Emperor Iaius I, 29 mars 2011 - 05:28 .

[mesmerizedish]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

Congratulations. You've discovered the organizing principle of the thugocracy.

I'll be sure to tell all those scientists and artists out there that they're inferior because you can steal their lunch money.

Context is important. If I can steal their lunch money, then I'm better than they are at having lunch money. They're better at science and art. In the end, Danarius judged himself based on his power. Fenris overpowered him.

I'll also tell them they're vile if they feel any better than those bullies, because how DARE they feel proud of their accomplishments if they're unable to beat up other people.

They're not vile for being proud of their accomplishments. They're vile if they chase down their former slaves and mock them for having been slaves.

Pathos is not synonymous with "emotion" and I will smack every misinformed English teacher that insists that it is. Pathos is an appeal to emotion, if you must be reductive about it. Danarius does not go "oh, woe is me. I've had such a terrible life." Notwithstanding the fact that this is Fenris's ratio vivendi, it makes absolutely no sense. You do not internally play for sympathy with yourself and then say "I feel sorry for myself, I'm superior!"

It needn't be so dull an emotion. The appeal isn't for pity, but it is an emotional one. Danarius internally says "I used to own Fenris, I'm superior." The only basis for that superiority is how Danarius feels about it (though, Fenris certainly plays into it perfectly).

You're also missing the point. Just because your reason isn't satisfied doesn't mean there isn't a rational basis for thinking so. A rational basis test, in fact, is one of the lowest thresholds to satisfy. There are, I hope you know, many reasons that an individual can feel proud aside from who has the bigger muscles.

Why do you keep bringing up physical strength?

21st century. Context is important. You accomplish nothing by judging the past--or a setting resembling the past--by modern standards. Congratulations, you can feel outraged by things that violate basic tenants of modern society! It's the definition of low-hanging fruit.

I can feel outraged by a lot of things. I pick this one because slavery is something that's considered immoral in every part of Thedas outside the Imperium. I'm not judging the past by modern standards. I'm judging Tevinter by the standards of the rest of the world.

As far as the distinction you raise between employment and ownership, well--I don't want to go on an extended discourse on property and contract law, but to a certain extent, an employee gives up their free agency and effectively gives their employer an ownership interest in their labor. A slave is essentially a tenanted employee: see ancient Rome.

People != property. Context isn't so imortant here... the basis of the UN's Declaration of Human Rights is that these things are beyond context. I believe personally that there is indeed objective morality, but feel free to disagree.

[Emperor Iaius I]

Context is important. If I can steal their lunch money, then I'm better than they are at having lunch money. They're better at science and art. In the end, Danarius judged himself based on his power. Fenris overpowered him.

Political and legal power, not who could beat up whom. What, do you think that the Romans who owned gladiators did so because they were stronger?

They're not vile for being proud of their accomplishments. They're vile if they chase down their former slaves and mock them for having been slaves.

When did Danarius mock him for being a slave? He pointed out Varania did her duty, and in response to Fenris's claims that he never wanted the markings (which was what Danarius was truly after), Danarius comments on how little he knew (for indeed, he did want those markings).

It needn't be so dull an emotion. The appeal isn't for pity, but it is an emotional one. Danarius internally says "I used to own Fenris, I'm superior." The only basis for that superiority is how Danarius feels about it (though, Fenris certainly plays into it perfectly).

Curious that you phrased it in the form of a sufficient-necessary condition. I'll point out that reason (as opposed to emotion) means "the product of logic" and not necessarily "factually correct." A thing can be reasonable, not emotional, and not factual.

This business about how Danarius feels is completely unsubstantiated, unverifiable, and basically fanfiction on your part. The business about pathos is just wrong, a priori.

Why do you keep bringing up physical strength?

It's your metric.

I can feel outraged by a lot of things. I pick this one because slavery is something that's considered immoral in every part of Thedas outside the Imperium. I'm not judging the past by modern standards. I'm judging Tevinter by the standards of the rest of the world.

Except it's blatant hypocrisy to make the Andrastians feel better about putting the very slaves that Andraste freed in ghettos and denying them any sort of social mobility whatsoever. We covered this already.

People != property. Context isn't so imortant here... the basis of the UN's Declaration of Human Rights is that these things are beyond context. I believe personally that there is indeed objective morality, but feel free to disagree.

That's not true. It is possible, even today, even in a first world country, to have a property interest in a person's labor. It's just that such interests are contractual and are freely entered into by all parties, and are revokable according to conditions negotiated in advance.

The UN Declaration of Human Rights does not exist in Thedas. The feudal overlordship that Arl Eamon holds over Redcliffe is a violation of the UN Declaration of Human Rights: let's go on about how awful he is now. Come now.

I am no longer interested in this discussion. We've kept things off-topic long enough.

New topic: Merrill.

Modifié par Emperor Iaius I, 29 mars 2011 - 06:05 .

[Mr.House]

She is grand.

[Jorrkit]

Is it warm in here?

[Zjarcal]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...
New topic: Merrill.

That makes Merrill happeh...

Modifié par Zjarcal, 29 mars 2011 - 06:42 .

[Emperor Iaius I]

Ahh, that chainmail neck. Just...

I really need to find a way to fix my armor mod.

[Jorrkit]

No amount of chainmail can besmirch the loveliness of that face. And those shiny green eyes. =)

[Esbatty]

I'm still wondering where Merrill picked up that lingerie for her first time with Hawke. Since Isabela seems so surprised that Hawke and Kitten "saw each other naked", I assume she didn't help her pick it out. That leaves Varric and possibly Aveline helped her out. I figure they did the whole "Pretty Woman" fashion show montage lol

[Matterialize]

Do they have a bunch of empty houses in the alienage? I've been wondering how she was able to just move right in without a fuss, no roomies or landlords.

[Zjarcal]

I really don't mind the chainmail neck... although I suppose the scarf could still be used with that armor. Maybe.... 

Esbatty wrote...

I'm still wondering where Merrill picked up that lingerie for her first time with Hawke. Since Isabela seems so surprised that Hawke and Kitten "saw each other naked", I assume she didn't help her pick it out. That leaves Varric and possibly Aveline helped her out. I figure they did the whole "Pretty Woman" fashion show montage lol

Hmm... I really doubt Aveline would even know where to find lingerie. I'd say it was actually her sassy gay friend Anders. 

EDIT: Meh... Anders doesn't like her enough to take her shopping... 

Modifié par Zjarcal, 29 mars 2011 - 06:46 .

[mesmerizedish]

Emperor Iaius I wrote...

Political and legal power, not who could beat up whom. What, do you think that the Romans who owned gladiators did so because they were stronger?

Again, you bring up physical strength. I've never said anything about that. What matters is that Danarius is dead, and has no power of any kind, and that's because of Fenris.

When did Danarius mock him for being a slave? He pointed out Varania did her duty, and in response to Fenris's claims that he never wanted the markings (which was what Danarius was truly after), Danarius comments on how little he knew (for indeed, he did want those markings).

Danarius is always mocking Fenris. I feel as though you're deliberately blind to subtext out of a desire to defend the magisters as a collective.

Curious that you phrased it in the form of a sufficient-necessary condition. I'll point out that reason (as opposed to emotion) means "the product of logic" and not necessarily "factually correct." A thing can be reasonable, not emotional, and not factual.

I've never said otherwise.

This business about how Danarius feels is completely unsubstantiated, unverifiable, and basically fanfiction on your part.

It's a conclusion, arrived at based on my (admittedly limited) observations of how Fenris and Danarius interact with one another.

It's your metric.

As I said above, it's not and never has been.

Except it's blatant hypocrisy to make the Andrastians feel better about putting the very slaves that Andraste freed in ghettos and denying them any sort of social mobility whatsoever. We covered this already.

So?

That's not true. It is possible, even today, even in a first world country, to have a property interest in a person's labor. It's just that such interests are contractual and are freely entered into by all parties, and are revokable according to conditions negotiated in advance.

People also != their labor.

The UN Declaration of Human Rights does not exist in Thedas. The feudal overlordship that Arl Eamon holds over Redcliffe is a violation of the UN Declaration of Human Rights: let's go on about how awful he is now. Come now.

I never said "He violates the Universal Declaration of Human Rights! HE IS THUS BAD!" I used the documents as an example of moral and ethical standards transcending time. Are you intentionally misinterpreting me?

I am no longer interested in this discussion. We've kept things off-topic long enough.

Then I won't expect a reply

New topic: Merrill.

...should be kept away from Danarius, because he's vile.

I jest!

Modifié par ishmaeltheforsaken, 29 mars 2011 - 06:44 .

[Jorrkit]

Matterialize wrote...

Do they have a bunch of empty houses in the alienage? I've been wondering how she was able to just move right in without a fuss, no roomies or landlords.

For all the talk of how poor and horrid the alienage is, it doesn't really look all that crowded to me. Seems right cozy. The tree is nice and welcoming.

[mesmerizedish]

Zjarcal wrote...

I really don't mind the chainmail neck... although I suppose the scarf could still be used with that armor. Maybe.... 

I don't mind the chainmail neck at all! I just love the scarf SO MUCH. And it'd be recolored to match her sash, and it'd be SO CUTE.

[Esbatty]

Zjarcal wrote...

I really don't mind the chainmail neck... although I suppose the scarf could still be used with that armor. Maybe.... 

Esbatty wrote...

I'm still wondering where Merrill picked up that lingerie for her first time with Hawke. Since Isabela seems so surprised that Hawke and Kitten "saw each other naked", I assume she didn't help her pick it out. That leaves Varric and possibly Aveline helped her out. I figure they did the whole "Pretty Woman" fashion show montage lol

Hmm... I really doubt Aveline would even know where to find lingerie. I'd say it was actually her sassy gay friend Anders. 

Not Anders, he is a stick in the mud to poor Daisy, unless cats are somehow involved.

...

*giggles* Varric shaking his head 'No' as Merrill steps out wearing Hurlock Armor.

[Emperor Iaius I]

Esbatty wrote...

I'm still wondering where Merrill picked up that lingerie for her first time with Hawke.

It was a summoning. It required blood magic.

I mean, there's no way she was wearing that thing under skintight chainmail.

.aaaand that's as hard as I ever want to think on that topic. Moving on.

[Blackout62]

Matterialize wrote...

Do they have a bunch of empty houses
in the alienage? I've been wondering how she was able to just move
right in without a fuss, no roomies or landlords.

Varric pulled some strings and got her the house I assume. It's all but stated by his real estate agent-esque dialogue when you drop her off at her new home.

What truly intrigues me about Merrill's home is why she has so much cheese. There are three whole wheels on her counter and only one thing of mutton. That's an unhealthy ratio of dairy to meat. Did Mary feel the need to have Merrill be the requisite cheese obsessed companion? Is Merrill the fiend that took the cheese that's advertised as lost on the Chanter's board?

Modifié par Blackout62, 29 mars 2011 - 06:51 .