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[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

tmp7704 wrote...

Pseudocognition wrote...

The idea floating around that they got the elf design absolutely 100% right forever and always the first time never fails to astound.

Well, given they took something like 5 years to develop and release the first game, you'd think they've mulled over the appearances quite a bit and went through more than one iteration. So seeing what they finally settled on after all that time getting discarded as soon as the second game appears, along with most of the other things... it does feel bit weird.

I don't think anybody goes through a project, no matter what it is or how long it takes, without thinking at the end that you could have done some things better or differently. You end a project knowing more than you did when you began. Maybe the Origins elves were what they could make with the tools they had. Now they have the tools (be it programs, individual skills, certain artists/programmers/etc) necessary to do more with the same resources.

Sticking with the old when you know you can do better, especially as a group of creative people, seems really limiting. And boring.

Sorry for dragging up this topic. Back to Merrill.

Modifié par Pseudocognition, 11 janvier 2011 - 09:22 .

[The Lesser Evil]

SandyWB wrote...
The elves in Origins had a great history, two separate but great cultures, and looked distinguishable enough from humans to clearly be their own race.

What.

There was absolutely nothing distinct about elves in Origins except for their pointed ears, occasional facial tattoos and shorter height. There were several elves that I didn't even recognise as Elves because their ears weren't visible (such as Iona).

Anyway! Onto something completely unrelated but just as on-topic: I made a new Dalish Elf just for the possible throwaway reference to a Dalish Elf warden by Merrill in DA2. It's a good way to kill some time till March.

[Big Blue Car]

SandyWB wrote...
I know that Bioware is trying to "redefine the Fantasy Genre in gaming".

Ha ha ha.

Just count your blessings that Oghren wasn't named Gimli and we were appealing to Arl Eamon not the House of Stark. 

[Vearsin]

I quite like how merrill looks now. To me her apperance seems to show a really deep connection with nature, which is what the dalish are all about from what i understand.

[Lord Zeuss]

SandyWB wrote...
I know that Bioware is trying to "redefine the Fantasy Genre in gaming".

Not with Dragon Age, they're not.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Quake came the closest to redifine the fantasy genre in Gaming

[tmp7704]

Pseudocognition wrote...

I don't think anybody goes through a project, no matter what it is or how long it takes, without thinking at the end that you could have done some things better or differently. You end a project knowing more than you did when you began. Maybe the Origins elves were what they could make with the tools they had. Now they have the tools (be it programs, individual skills, certain artists/programmers/etc) necessary to do more with the same resources.

Sticking with the old when you know you can do better, especially as a group of creative people, seems really limiting. And boring.

I don't think there was many complaints about ME2 how boring it was for retaining the appearances of all their races. Even though the team certainly did find areas where they could and did improve fidelity and whatnot.

You're right though, this is getting offtopic.

edit: btw, i mentioned the development time to address the notion that what we got to see as elves in DA was the first attempt to "get them right". I don't believe it was really the case.

Modifié par tmp7704, 11 janvier 2011 - 09:36 .

[Addai]

Pseudocognition wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

Pseudocognition wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

I am wondering if there is a story/ lore purpose for why Fenris looks... well, normalish... in comparison to dear Meri-bear here. Like if he has taken on more human features and proportions by being in close contact with humans, whereas the Dalish are supposed to look more "fantasy elf" elven.

Sexual dimorphism.

That would explain height and stature maybe, but not facial structure and ears.

It could just be individuals varying or just angle/ resolution playing tricks.  Guess we'll have to see more elves to determine if the mashed-face, big-eyed, floppy-eared look is just Merrill or more of a racial thing.

[snip example]

Well... yeah, it would. Males and females of some species look vastly different. However that is not true in this case. To me they look to have very similar facial proportions, Fenris might have slightly smaller eyes but that's it. They both have the deep nasal bridge and straight nose, and his ears aren't flat to his skull from what I can tell.

Gender could explain the differences.  Although there is other indication that what I was saying- that Fenris looks different because he's been in contact with humans- is actually how it's going to go.  For instance, Dalish call the city elves "flat ears."  So I'm just asking if that's the case.

The facial structure looks very different to me.  Merrill more mashed, sort of Na'vi- like, and Fenris more angular.

[the_one_54321]

Big Blue Car wrote...

SandyWB wrote...
I know that Bioware is trying to "redefine the Fantasy Genre in gaming".

Ha ha ha.

Just count your blessings that Oghren wasn't named Gimli and we were appealing to Arl Eamon not the House of Stark.

Gimli and Oghren were nothing alike. At all. Not even in a crazy parallel dimension where "alike" means "different." They had zero similarities. Just saying.

[Rawgrim]

I am not sure about Merrill...her whole looks seems ...very out of place, with the rest of the characters. Like she is from a different artstyle alltogether.

[Big Blue Car]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Quake came the closest to redifine the fantasy genre in Gaming

No actually it's Planescape (was actually interesting, had some philosophy), the Baldur's Gate trilogy (gamings Lord of the Rings, a polished epic that was mythological in scope), Daggerfall/Morrowind (the first astounding fantasy game worlds of their time, the latter created a genuinely unique setting) and Alpha Protocol (the biggest step forward in true gaming narrative in a decade, I don't care if it's not fantasy it's RPG as hell).

Edit; 

the_one_54321 wrote...
Gimli and Oghren were nothing alike. At all. Not even in a crazy parallel dimension where "alike" means "different." They had zero similarities. Just saying. 

And there was me thinking they were both token-dwarf axe fighters with ties to the nobility of their cultures who act as a comedic foil to the rest of the party and have ginger god damn hair, a huge beard and a different accent to the rest of the characters.

Modifié par Big Blue Car, 11 janvier 2011 - 09:42 .

[leggywillow]

The Lesser Evil wrote...

What.

There was absolutely nothing distinct about elves in Origins except for their pointed ears, occasional facial tattoos and shorter height. There were several elves that I didn't even recognise as Elves because their ears weren't visible (such as Iona).

This, in terms of their looks.  You can usually tell in-game just because of the limited body models and you come to recognize them quickly, but there was really nothing distinctly different about them at all.  Except for vaguely different ears, they were just petite humans.  In people's avatars on the forums, I can rarely tell humans from elves unless their ears are obviously showing and even then I have to squint to figure out if they're vaguely pointed enough to be elves.

I like the changes, and in some ways I feel like people's negative reactions are a sign that the artists did their jobs.  Think about it: the things we find most attractive are usually the things we find most comfortable and familiar.  Possibly the reason some people find Merril's design as unattractive and weird is because she now has features that are undeniably different from humans (larger eyes, large floppy-looking ears).  And she SHOULD have features like that, because she's NOT human.

[Addai]

Pseudocognition wrote...
Sticking with the old when you know you can do better, especially as a group of creative people, seems really limiting. And boring.

Weelll, it just gets a little iffy since some of us made Dalish PCs, so we think we know what our PCs look like and as players put effort into creating them, and now we find out that the devs didn't really want them to look that way as a race. 

I wasn't fussed about the Qunari change, for instance, but I never had a Qunari PC.  Retcon of PC characteristics is different IMO.

Modifié par Addai67, 11 janvier 2011 - 09:37 .

[SandyWB]

The Lesser Evil wrote...

What.

There was absolutely nothing distinct about elves in Origins except for their pointed ears, occasional facial tattoos and shorter height. There were several elves that I didn't even recognise as Elves because their ears weren't visible (such as Iona).

Anyway! Onto something completely unrelated but just as on-topic: I made a new Dalish Elf just for the possible throwaway reference to a Dalish Elf warden by Merrill in DA2. It's a good way to kill some time till March.

And you wouldn't consider an entire race being 3/4 as tall as humans, having pointed ears and having a delicate build to be enough for them to be distinctly not human? As for you not recognizing some characters as elves, well, I can only speak for myself, but that never happened to me. I could always spot an elf from a human, so maybe it was just you. Either way, the emphasis in that part of my post was that their history and culture was the important part that made them unique, hence that they didn't need to look so very different that they now do in DA2.

Big Blue Car wrote...

Ha ha ha.

Just count your blessings that Oghren wasn't named Gimli and we were appealing to Arl Eamon not the House of Stark. 

Which was why I used air quotes and continued after the section you quoted to say that I wouldn't have put it quite like that myself. I was actually quoting someone else when saying they tried to redefine Fantasy. I think Dragon Age did some great things with some already established archetypes and settings, but I hardly think they are redefining Fantasy. Then again, why reinvent the wheel when it's already working well. Bioware has done a great job, giving us a high quality fantasy game in Origins. I can live without total artistic uniqueness if it means it will be better.

[Onyx Jaguar]

Big Blue Car wrote...

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Quake came the closest to redifine the fantasy genre in Gaming

No actually it's Planescape (was actually interesting, had some philosophy), the Baldur's Gate trilogy (gamings Lord of the Rings, a polished epic that was mythological in scope), Daggerfall/Morrowind (the first astounding fantasy game worlds of their time, the latter created a genuinely unique setting) and Alpha Protocol (the biggest step forward in true gaming narrative in a decade, I don't care if it's not fantasy it's RPG as hell).

Quake was earlier and of those listed, actually is the only one that counts as coming close to redifining the fantasy genre in gaming

Much like Blood Omen in a way, except Quake in hindsight is a bit far gone.

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

nvm

Modifié par Pseudocognition, 11 janvier 2011 - 09:41 .

[the_one_54321]

Planescape and Baldur's Gate are both based in pre-existing fantasy worlds. Worlds that were created by someone else before the respective game developers made video games about them.

[Addai]

leggywillow wrote...
I like the changes, and in some ways I feel like people's negative reactions are a sign that the artists did their jobs.  Think about it: the things we find most attractive are usually the things we find most comfortable and familiar.  Possibly the reason some people find Merril's design as unattractive and weird is because she now has features that are undeniably different from humans (larger eyes, large floppy-looking ears).  And she SHOULD have features like that, because she's NOT human.

By this reasoning, since the lore says humans are especially attracted to elves, they should look basically human.

Anyway, I'll wait to see some more DA2 elves before deciding if Merrill is just an ugly duckling or if the Namayas and Cammens of Thedas are really the predominant gene pool. 

Modifié par Addai67, 11 janvier 2011 - 09:42 .

[Onyx Jaguar]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Planescape and Baldur's Gate are both based in pre-existing fantasy worlds. Worlds that were created by someone else before the respective game developers made video games about them.

Exactly, this leaves Blood Omen, and Quake

Not to mention the actual examples that I could give in countless JRPGs but that would bring back the Anime discussion

So i'm going to do that anyway!

[Big Blue Car]

Onyx Jaguar wrote...

Quake was earlier and of those listed, actually is the only one that counts as coming close to redifining the fantasy genre in gaming

Much like Blood Omen in a way, except Quake in hindsight is a bit far gone.

Well if you'd said Blood Omen from the start I'd agree. A  true masterpiece.

[Eclipse_9990]

Rawgrim wrote...

I am not sure about Merrill...her whole looks seems ...very out of place, with the rest of the characters. Like she is from a different artstyle alltogether.

Merrills style actually looks pretty similiar to that drawn elf in the making of dragon age video.. 

[tmp7704]

leggywillow wrote...

Possibly the reason some people find Merril's design as unattractive and weird is because she now has features that are undeniably different from humans (larger eyes, large floppy-looking ears).  And she SHOULD have features like that, because she's NOT human.

To be fair, the ears this large were already present on elves in DAO, just unavailable to the player's character. And the large --to the point of being oversized-- eyes are something you can see on lot of humans in DAO as well, so it doesn't really work as "distinct elf feature" all that well.

The only really different thing they have going for them now is the slender build. But "short, slender human" isn't that different from "short human" so if the latter is supposed to be "not distinctive enough", well. Consider how Fenris doesn't really spark the same reaction, precisely because he isn't very far off from human appearance.

[Rawgrim]

The Ultima series was pretty defining. Very cool setting as well.

[Noilly Prat]

I wish I had played Blood Omen when it first came out. I probably would have loved it. Instead, I recently downloaded it off PSN, and I don't know if I can finish it. It hurts my eyes, like a lot of the blurry, brown games of that era, and the controls and combat feel kind of awful, compared with, say, A Link to the Past.



Does Soul Reaver hold up any better? Anybody?

[Poison Apple]

I've skipped through most of the pages so this might be a topic already discussed here but... any guesses or hopes for the new voice actress? :happy:

Assuming the VA will actually be Welsh, all I can think of is Joanna Page. I see that as pretty unlikely, mind.