17177 réponses à ce sujet

[jlb524]

Demons are a tool...embrace the demons!

[bleetman]

I don't consider it heartless to try and dissuade people you care about from doing crazy dangerous stuff, whatever their reasons. Merrill's assertion that she knows what she's doing doesn't make it true.

[jlb524]

bleetman wrote...

I don't consider it heartless to try and dissuade people you care about from doing crazy dangerous stuff, whatever their reasons. Merrill's assertion that she knows what she's doing doesn't make it true.

She doesn't know what she's doing?

[bleetman]

I'd have to say no, really. Not when it comes to her dealing with fade spirits. Even her own confidence in the matter dissolves over the years.

[mesmerizedish]

Uh-oh, are we getting mean at one another? I can't tell.

Don't be getting mean at one another!

It's totally fine to take either path. No fighting!

[jlb524]

bleetman wrote...

I'd have to say no, really. Not when it comes to her dealing with fade spirits. Even her own confidence in the matter dissolves over the years.

So she's just a babbling idiot?

What proof do you have of these claims you make?  I never got the impression that she was going blind into it.

[Esbatty]

bleetman wrote...

I'd have to say no, really. Not when it comes to her dealing with fade spirits. Even her own confidence in the matter dissolves over the years.

I love that about the game... watching my companions' opinions change and what not, over time. Although I Fenris is the only companion I've never been able to get him to a Friendship nor even a full rivalry. Even when I'm pro-templar.

[jlb524]

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Uh-oh, are we getting mean at one another? I can't tell.

No.

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...
Don't be getting mean at one another!

We aren't (or at least, I'm not).

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...
It's totally fine to take either path. No fighting!

No fighting...I'm just trying to figure out the justification for taking the rival path.

Esbatty wrote...
I
love that about the game... watching my companions' opinions change and
what not, over time. Although I Fenris is the only companion I've never
been able to get him to a Friendship nor even a full rivalry. Even when
I'm pro-templar.

Fenris is a biatch....I've never ever ever maxed him out...one way or the other.

Modifié par jlb524, 05 juin 2011 - 11:17 .

[bleetman]

jlb524 wrote...

So she's just a babbling idiot?

What proof do you have of these claims you make?  I never got the impression that she was going blind into it.

I didn't say she was a babbling idiot, unless being wrong about something automatically makes a person an idiot. Thing is, she originally maintains that she knows what she's doing, that she can defend herself, so on and so forth. By the time act three rolls around, she's spontaneously asking Aveline to take care of everyone for her, and requesting that Hawke accompany her up Sundermount in the likely event she gets possessed and has to be euthanised. Her previous confidence in her ability to safely work with spirits just evaporates.

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Uh-oh, are we getting mean at one another? I can't tell.

I don't know! Are we? I'm not trying to

Modifié par bleetman, 05 juin 2011 - 11:30 .

[jlb524]

bleetman wrote...

I didn't say she was a babbling idiot, unless being wrong about something automatically makes a person an idiot. Thing is, she originally maintains that she knows what she's doing, that she can defend herself, so on and so forth. By the time act three rolls around, she's spontaneously asking Aveline to take care of everyone for her, and requesting that Hawke accompany her up Sundermount in the likely event she gets possessed and has to be euthanised. Her previous confidence in her ability to safely work with spirits just evaporates.

But, isn't that just being realistic?  I never got the impression that she lost confidence in dealing with the ole demon...Merrill is aware that it's dangerous...like all Fade spirits.  

I guess my point is...Merrill knows she could die from her attempts to fix the eluvian (and I would say her expectations are realistic here)...she's 110% aware of this.  But, she's willing to do it.   This is what she wants.  So, I basically disagree with the idea that she doesn't know what she's doing/doesn't know the risks involved b/c she does.

[Esbatty]

I still hold that the Eluvian is fairly useless to the Elves since if its used to communicate with other Eluvians that means there needs to be another working one for you to know if it works or not. So its like fixing up what you believe to be an ancient telephone but instead its a location beacon for Cthullu.

[jlb524]

Esbatty wrote...

I still hold that the Eluvian is fairly useless to the Elves since if its used to communicate with other Eluvians that means there needs to be another working one for you to know if it works or not. So its like fixing up what you believe to be an ancient telephone but instead its a location beacon for Cthullu.

Like Morrigan's?

I will maintain that gaining any little scrap of knowledge is beneficial to the elves. Do you think Merrill will ever get the chance to to study another ancient elven artifact besides the eluvian?  I doubt it...this almost seems like a once in a lifetime opportunity.

[bleetman]

jlb524 wrote...

But, isn't that just being realistic? I never got the impression that she lost confidence in dealing with the ole demon...Merrill is aware that it's dangerous...like all Fade spirits.  

I guess my point is...Merrill knows she could die from her attempts to fix the eluvian (and I would say her expectations are realistic here)...she's 110% aware of this.  But, she's willing to do it.   This is what she wants. So, I basically disagree with the idea that she doesn't know what she's doing/doesn't know the risks involved b/c she does.

Oh, I'm sure she knows the risks, and that her death was always a possibility. For me, though, she always seemed initially convinced that she could circumvent the risks unharmed, and over the years comes to doubt that certainty.

From:

"Sure, demons are very helpful. Right until they take your mind and turn you into an abomination"
"Well... yes. But that won't happen. I know how to defend myself"

to

"It frightens me. It takes so little for a mage to fall"

to

"Are you sure you want to do this?"
"Not even a little"

Modifié par bleetman, 05 juin 2011 - 11:52 .

[Esbatty]

jlb524 wrote...

Esbatty wrote...

I still hold that the Eluvian is fairly useless to the Elves since if its used to communicate with other Eluvians that means there needs to be another working one for you to know if it works or not. So its like fixing up what you believe to be an ancient telephone but instead its a location beacon for Cthullu.

Like Morrigan's?

I will maintain that gaining any little scrap of knowledge is beneficial to the elves. Do you think Merrill will ever get the chance to to study another ancient elven artifact besides the eluvian?  I doubt it...this almost seems like a once in a lifetime opportunity.

Morrigan even states that this trip is the Dragonbone Wastes' Eluvian's last hurrah once they go through it.

[Master Shiori]

It is an opportunity, but it's the one that Marethari and the rest of her clan don't see as being worthwhile. And when you're trying to restore it by following the advice of a demon.. well, let's just say that particular scenario is unlikely to have a happy ending.

I have tremendous amount of respect for Merrill's determination, despite the price she had to pay. But it makes me wonder whether it's all worth it when you consider her clan doesn't even want to have anything to do with the mirror.

[jlb524]

bleetman wrote...

Oh, I'm sure she knows the risks, and that her death was always a possibility. For me, though, she always seemed initially convinced that she could circumvent the risks unharmed, and over the years comes to doubt that certainty.

From:

"Sure, demons are very helpful. Right until they take your mind and turn you into an abomination"
"Well... yes. But that won't happen. I know how to defend myself"

to

"It frightens me. It takes so little for a mage to fall"

to

"Are you sure you want to do this?"
"Not even a little"

I can't contest that.  So, you want to say she learns more as she continues on/studies more about demonology/etc.   Which is fine....she learns more by Act 2.   But how can it be said that she doesn't know what she's doing after this period of growth?

Esbatty wrote...
Morrigan even states that this trip is the Dragonbone Wastes' Eluvian's last hurrah once they go through it.

With her knowledge....we don't know how they completely work.

Modifié par jlb524, 05 juin 2011 - 12:00 .

[jlb524]

Master Shiori wrote...
It is an opportunity, but it's the one that Marethari and the rest of her clan don't see as being worthwhile. And when you're trying to restore it by following the advice of a demon.. well, let's just say that particular scenario is unlikely to have a happy ending.

Many doubted Columbus sailing across the Atlantic as well...

Master Shiori wrote...
I have tremendous amount of respect for Merrill's determination, despite the price she had to pay. But it makes me wonder whether it's all worth it when you consider her clan doesn't even want to have anything to do with the mirror.

I think the problem is that we don't really know the full potential of the mirror or what it could do. But when you are talking about a group of people that have little to nothing left of there past, every little bit is important even if it is a little bit.

[bleetman]

jlb524 wrote...

I can't contest that.  So, you want to say she learns more as she continues on/studies more about demonology/etc.   Which is fine....she learns more by Act 2.   But how can it be said that she doesn't know what she's doing after this period of growth?

I wouldn't say she learns more about demons (though that's part of it, I imagine) so much as she grows steadily less convinced of her own ability to resist them. At least once, it's demonstrated that she can't, despite knowing what to do to avoid falling. In a sense, it's not so much that she doesn't know what she's doing, more that she underestimates the risk involved.

Modifié par bleetman, 05 juin 2011 - 12:25 .

[Maria Caliban]

jlb524 wrote...

No fighting...I'm just trying to figure out the justification for taking the rival path.

• Mages are evil
• Dealing with demons is idiotic
• Merrill is sweet but has all the survival instinct of a headless chicken

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

bleetman wrote...

*obligatory Merrill as a pony shot*


On another note, friendmancing Merrill this time is making me somewhat uncomfortable due to the obviousness of how much she worships the ground Hawke stands on. It feels like I'm taking advantage

Well, are you man or a woman? Your character, I mean, not YOU

As a Lady Hawke, it's less worshipfulness and more admiration.

She literally says she worships Lady Hawke.

Thor Rand Al wrote...

So just curious, is this a love or hate Merrill thread cause I adore her n if it's a hate thread then I don't belong here lmao.

It's a Merrill thread. You can feel however you desire about her. Love, hate, indifference, like, frustration...

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 05 juin 2011 - 12:48 .

[mesmerizedish]

Maria Caliban wrote...

ishmaeltheforsaken wrote...

Well, are you man or a woman? Your character, I mean, not YOU

As a Lady Hawke, it's less worshipfulness and more admiration.

She literally says she worships Lady Hawke.

Okay, well, if you want to take it literally.

Also, I forgot about that line. DAII provides a good many blanks in the PC's relationships with her friends, and I've done more than my share of filling in those blanks :-/

[congealeddgtllvr]

jlb524 wrote...

bleetman wrote...

I'd have to say no, really. Not when it comes to her dealing with fade spirits. Even her own confidence in the matter dissolves over the years.

So she's just a babbling idiot?

What proof do you have of these claims you make?  I never got the impression that she was going blind into it.

When she betrays you in the fade Wryme promises her the "dreamer" power.  There's no reason to believe he can do this but Merrill does.  Her attitude afterwards is one of abject apology.  She calls what she did "foolish."

All this leads me to believe she was tricked by Wryme.  Your interpretation may vary but that's mine.  

I'm not basing my decision not to hand her the knife off the fact that she has huge eyes and doesn’t know what a bj is.  I'm basing it off of the only empirical knowledge I've gained thus far which pertains to her ability to resist demonic temptation, rather than her own estimation of her abilities.  At least that was my thought process on my first playthrough. 

When you first meet her she's kicking the crap out of undead and giant spiders.  So taking her along for combat seems fine.  But when it comes to dealing with spirits in a less direct manner...

Modifié par congealeddgtllvr, 05 juin 2011 - 01:18 .

[Giggles_Manically]

I have done the friendmance twice, and the rivalmance twice, depending on my Hawke.

On the whole I am like 70/30 towards the rivalmance.
Friends dont let friends dance the remigold with demons.

[Master Shiori]

jlb524 wrote...

Many doubted Columbus sailing across the Atlantic as well...

Which is completely besides the point. Columbus didn't ask a demon to tell him whether the Earth was round and if there were other continents to be discovered.
Merrill, on the other hand, is acting purely on the words of a creature that isn't altruistic. It doesn't care about the Dalish or elven history and is using Merrill as a pawn to achieve it's own objective. Had Merrill been acting upon knowledge gained from other sources, like Morrigan did, then that's a different matter.
As it is, it's clear to anyone with a least bit of experience when it comes to demons that Merrill plans cannot end well.
Regardless of wether Hawke supports her or is trying to talk her out of it, he/she is doing so with Merrill best interest in mind. Either because he/she sees that Merrill is being manipulated or because he/she believes in her, even though her plan never turns out the way she wanted, regardless of Hawke's actions.

jlb524 wrote...

I think the problem is that we don't really know the full potential of the mirror or what it could do. But when you are talking about a group of people that have little to nothing left of there past, every little bit is important even if it is a little bit.

Apsolutely. But not knowing about ones past brings it's own dangers. Is every bit of knowledge you recover beneficial? Could it be that some of that knowledge was seen as a mistake even by ancient elves and that they thought it best be forgotten?
Considering how few elves are left and how much they've forgotten, I think it's best not to rush in blindly and hope that everything will turn out well.

Modifié par Master Shiori, 05 juin 2011 - 01:26 .

[tmp7704]

Esbatty wrote...

No I distinctly remember putting about 300 hundred arrows into the Varterral whilst simulatenously chanting "ItsNotASpider" repeatedly

i do feel for the poor arachnophobic people who try to play this game, i really do.

[tmp7704]

jlb524 wrote...

I can't contest that.  So, you want to say she learns more as she continues on/studies more about demonology/etc.   Which is fine....she learns more by Act 2.   But how can it be said that she doesn't know what she's doing after this period of growth?

These quotes would appear to indicate that over the years Merrill moves from the point of mostly ignorance to the point where she knows enough to realize how little she actually knows.

edit: random Merrill from http://iila.deviantart.com/

Modifié par tmp7704, 05 juin 2011 - 01:50 .