17177 réponses à ce sujet

[cloud39472]

Morroian wrote...

Merrill isn't stupid, she came this close to restoring an elluvian with less knowledge than Morrigan.

lol she always sais she knows whats shes doing when she doesnt really oh yeah doing blood magic is fine i wont get possessed she wouldve been possessed if marethari didnt step in so on those parts shes stupid but on other parts like fixing the eluvian not so stupid although she has got alot of knowledge on it she is dalish after all.

[bleetman]

Being wrong doesn't make a person stupid, no matter what the internet-at-large seems to believe.

[MG800]

If there's any rivalmance I hate, it's Merill's one. I don't find appealing treating a supposed partner as a child who can't take care of herself, and need to be watched upon, and have dangerous toys properly hidden from, because "Oh! She can hurt herself". Of course, she can. Ever heard of 'trust", or an "individual choice"? How about "she's your lover, not your child"? 
It's just.. babysitting a person you want to share life AND bed with is kind of.. I don't know: what rivalmance is in general: toxic, unhealthy and breaking. Just this one is less about angry sex, and more about being an overbearing father, and Merril - a rebelious daughter, who needs to be protected from herself. 
There. Got it out of my system.

Modifié par MG800, 16 août 2011 - 04:05 .

[Xilizhra]

MG800 wrote...

If there's any rivalmance I hate, it's Merill's one. I don't find appealing treating a supposed partner as a child who can't take care of herself, and need to be watched upon, and have dangerous toys properly hidden from, because "Oh! She can hurt herself". Of course, she can. Ever heard of 'trust", or an "individual choice"? How about "she's your lover, not your child"? 
There. Got it out of my system.

Ah, finally someone who agrees. We need more of you.

[Leah5]

Merrill isn't stupid. She knows it's risky; that's why she asks Hawke to kill her should anything go wrong. And there's no guarantee she would have been possessed, either. The demon was trapped in the statue. There's no proof it would have been able to possess her other than Marethari's speculation... and she's possessed herself at that point, so I'm not inclined to take her word on it.

Agreed on the rivalmance thing, too. I just can't rival her. D:

[MG800]

It's not like I can't rival her, it's like I cannot romance her like that. I can't imagine a relationship without partnership, even if it's a twisted one. You can rival Anders, Isabela, and Fenris, and be their partner still - you can't really rival Merril and treat her as an equal at the same time. Besides, if you think someone should grow up, or learn something, telling him what to do is the last you should be doing. Protecting someone by saying "NO" is not protecting - it's a big "I disapprove", and it's not efficient. And making someone co-dependant is not what a relationship should be about! Argh.

Xilizhra wrote...
Ah, finally someone who agrees. We need more of you.

Why, thank you 

Modifié par MG800, 16 août 2011 - 04:39 .

[dragonflight288]

I've never had the heart to rival her. Simply because I agree with her philosophy and I see more potential good for the Dalish clans than potential harm.

[MG800]

dragonflight288 wrote...

I've never had the heart to rival her. Simply because I agree with her philosophy and I see more potential good for the Dalish clans than potential harm.

Well, I can rival her - because what I think, it's not exactly what my Hawkes would agree with. But her rivalmance is something I can't bear. You either play her parent, or her lover - you can't be the same thing at the same time.

And I respect Merril, since she's willing to sacrifice everything in order to reclaim a bit of what elves were before, what they barely remember, but still take pride in. 
 I mean, as far as elves go, I hear "we lost this"; " we want to reclaim that" - and when opportunity arises, to get a ficture of what they chase around for, and what they can't let go, it's "Oh, dangerous stuff. Nope!". 

If by any chance, someone will reclaim the lost lore, spread it around the elves, and unite the Dales... it would be a proof that true miracles happen. The way it looks now, elves will stay in the role of persecuted minority.

Modifié par MG800, 16 août 2011 - 05:13 .

[jlb524]

MG800 wrote...
And I respect Merril, since she's willing to sacrifice everything in order to reclaim a bit of what elves were before, what they barely remember, but still take pride in. 
 I mean, as far as elves go, I hear "we lost this"; " we want to reclaim that" - and when opportunity arises, to get a ficture of what they chase around for, and what they can't let go, it's "Oh, dangerous stuff. Nope!". 

If by any chance, someone will reclaim the lost lore, spread it around the elves, and unite the Dales... it would be a proof that true miracles happen. The way it looks now, elves will stay in the role of persecuted minority.

That's how I feel, exactly.  

Merrill's doing what a Keeper is supposed to do.  I would imagine it's incredibly rare to find an ancient elven artifact so the Eluvian was quite literally a once in a lifetime opportunity for the clan.  Of course these things are dangerous (being ancient magic they know little about) but you won't restore any of what was lost if you avoid it and don't take risks.

Leah5 wrote...
There's no proof it would have been able to possess her other than Marethari's speculation... and she's possessed herself at that point, so I'm not inclined to take her word on it.

I still wonder when Marethari became possessed.  It could have happened in Act 2 (I think she was acting a bit odd and then there was something that drove the varterral mad).  Plus, the magical barrier to Audacity's cave is gone in Act 2 and the opening is 'closed up' with a wagon.

Modifié par jlb524, 16 août 2011 - 06:13 .

[bleetman]

Sometimes it's a lot easier to be the one doing the risk-taking and self-sacrificing than to be the one watching it happen. And sometimes, a willingness to be that self-sacrificing is not an admirable trait.

My problem isn't that she's restoring the Eluvian. My problem is that she's being so utterly reckless about it.

jlb524 wrote...

I still wonder when Marethari became possessed.  It could have happened in Act 2 (I think she was acting a bit odd and then there was something that drove the varterral mad).  Plus, the magical barrier to Audacity's cave is gone in Act 2 and the opening is 'closed up' with a wagon.

Presumably right before Merrill and Hawke turn up. If not, why would she be suddenly clinging to her sanity? In fact, why be there in the cave at all?

Modifié par bleetman, 16 août 2011 - 06:26 .

[LobselVith8]

bleetman wrote...

My problem isn't that she's restoring the Eluvian. My problem is that she's being so utterly reckless about it.

Merrill isn't reckless, bleetman, she (according to Gaider) extrapolated information from the shard and studied lore about the Eluvian, and she asked Hawke to accompany her as a contingency plan, in case the worst happened. Marethari, on the other hand, didn't do anything to protect the clan when she allowed a demon inside her, and didn't even warn anyone about what she was planning to do.

[DrFumb1ezX]

You know, if Marethari really wanted to stop Hawke and Merrill, she could have just put a couple of impassable pebbles in front of the cave. Would've stopped her then and there.

[Knight of Dane]

soccerchick wrote...

You know, if Marethari really wanted to stop Hawke and Merrill, she could have just put a couple of impassable pebbles in front of the cave. Would've stopped her then and there.

Nothing is impassable.

[tmp7704]

A strategically parked cart would have sufficed.

[tmp7704]

jlb524 wrote...

Yeah and Marethari doesn't know that.  She admits she knows nothing about them in DA:O and refuses to study them further.  All she knows is that it tainted two clan members.

To be precise, Marethari in DAO says she's never read about the mirror doing what happened in the prologue (i.e. tainting two clan members). That statement doesn't actually equal her being ignorant about the mirrors whatsoever -- as it doesnt contradict the possibility she's perfectly aware of existence of eluvians and their "normal" purpose.

Consider a situation where someone comes to you and tells you their friend got squashed by a flying car. If you answer to that with "I've never heard of a car doing something like that" it doesn't mean you must be totally clueless about the cars in general, their functions and abilities. It just means you've never heard about flying cars squashing people. Which, given it's not typical car behaviour is quite normal and to be expected.

[jlb524]

tmp7704 wrote...

To be precise, Marethari in DAO says she's never read about the mirror doing what happened in the prologue (i.e. tainting two clan members). That statement doesn't actually equal her being ignorant about the mirrors whatsoever -- as it doesnt contradict the possibility she's perfectly aware of existence of eluvians and their "normal" purpose.

I don't know here's the dialog.

I'm sure she's heard of mirrors but not necessarily ones of the 'Eluvian' variety (magical mirrors) which means she has no knowledge of those in particular.

I guess it comes down to interpretation of that line.

Modifié par jlb524, 16 août 2011 - 09:18 .

[tmp7704]

jlb524 wrote...

I don't know here's the dialog.

I'm sure she's heard of mirrors but not necessarily ones of the 'Eluvian' variety (magical mirrors) which means she has no knowledge of those in particular.

I guess it comes down to interpretation of that line.

Certainly, it's down to interpretation but i'd say in itself what Marethari says doesn't exclude the possibility she knows about the eluvians -- since the eluvians are supposed to serve function other than blow up and taint the nearby elves, they are almost certainly described as "magical mirrors which do x and y" in the lore rather than "magical mirrors which taint elves". As such, it'd be still normal for her to say she's never heard about such particular mirror when she receives the news.

Modifié par tmp7704, 16 août 2011 - 09:33 .

[Morroian]

LobselVith8 wrote...

bleetman wrote...

My problem isn't that she's restoring the Eluvian. My problem is that she's being so utterly reckless about it.

Merrill isn't reckless, bleetman, she (according to Gaider) extrapolated information from the shard and studied lore about the Eluvian, and she asked Hawke to accompany her as a contingency plan, in case the worst happened. Marethari, on the other hand, didn't do anything to protect the clan when she allowed a demon inside her, and didn't even warn anyone about what she was planning to do.

On this we agree I don't think she was reckless at all, just the opposite in fact as you say. 

[bleetman]

Yes, but let's look at her decision to consult with Audacity. There are four possible outcomes of this that I can see:

1. Audacity escapes, presumably possessing Merrill.
2. Audacity escapes, Merrill and Hawke destroy it.
3. Merrill learns everything she needs to finish her Eluvian.
4. Nothing.

I won't begin as to which of the three I'd consider more likely, else this would go on for days. But what's the worst case scenario, here? If 1. happens, Merrill is possessed and either kills Hawke, then goes on a rampage or escapes, or Merrill is possessed and then struck down. If 2. happens, then nothing has been gained anyway. If 3. happens... what then? Do we even know what the Eluvian does? I see no defining explanations on that front. Even Merrill deals in "ifs" and "think so's" when talking about what function it performs, other than on it being used to communicate, which isn't all that useful when you've only got one.

I'm not saying she shouldn't try to restore it, but it ends up consuming her. The problem with spending so long, sacrificing so much to try and achieve something, is that it becomes impossible to walk away from. You end up taking risks you wouldn't have before, and when those don't work, you take bigger ones. After all, she learns blood magic from Audacity, but it takes years before she goes back for more regardless of the risk to herself, because all her attempts have failed and she's come too far to give up. She's determined. Desperate. Reckless.

Your interpretation may vary, of course.

Modifié par bleetman, 17 août 2011 - 12:22 .

[Xilizhra]

An interesting theoretical exercise. However, it's all irrelevant because returning to Audacity never becomes a factor until after Merrill's pretty solidly locked into friendship or rivalry, and after you've made the choices on supporting her or not. Even if metagaming, she tries it regardless of what Hawke does, and if we are metagaming, we should recognize that Merrill stays unpossessed regardless.

[bleetman]

...Which would obviously matter if this was the reason I decided between rivalry or friendship, but it isn't. I've talked about my reasons for that many a time already.

[Xilizhra]

Then why did you bring up this Audacity thing when no one was talking about it? It was all about the original Eluvian stuff.

[jlb524]

It is risky for sure.

I still don't see how Merrill's being reckless if she takes precautions.

[Zjarcal]

Is it wrong that I never knew the Pride Demon was called Audacity up until now... 

[jlb524]

Zjarcal wrote...

Is it wrong that I never knew the Pride Demon was called Audacity up until now... 

Not really...it's not named in game.