17177 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

They owe you jack buddy.

They owe humans nothing and get mistreated for simply BEING.
So I think its understandable that they did not lay down the palm leaves at your approach as it were.

It's true, they owe me nothing, including distrust.

[jlb524]

When I RP'd my Dalish Warden, she most definitely felt the same kind of contempt towards humans...IMO, that just makes sense and she was cold to the human companions at the beginning of Origins.

I think some have difficulty empathizing with the Dalish b/c they are an 'other' and not human.

If the tables were turned and humans were the nomadic/oppressed people I imagine most would empathize with them and it would be perfectly fine to treat the haughty elven 'overlords' with disdain/distrust.

[jamesp81]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

They owe you jack buddy.

They owe humans nothing and get mistreated for simply BEING.
So I think its understandable that they did not lay down the palm leaves at your approach as it were.

I didn't ask them for anything beyond a modicum of civility that everyone OUGHT to display towards one another.  What happened to them in the past is 1) Unfortunate and 2) Not Hawke's fault.

[jamesp81]

jlb524 wrote...

When I RP'd my Dalish Warden, she most definitely felt the same kind of contempt towards humans...IMO, that just makes sense and she was cold to the human companions at the beginning of Origins.

I think some have difficulty empathizing with the Dalish b/c they are an 'other' and not human.

If the tables were turned and humans were the nomadic/oppressed people I imagine most would empathize with them and it would be perfectly fine to treat the haughty elven 'overlords' with disdain/distrust.

I'm considering writing a book based on that concept.  It won't turn out exactly like you're thinking.

[Knight of Dane]

No matter how much you sympathize with someone, when greeted "Leave Shemlen you have no business with the people" you kinda feel a little pissed.

It doesn't help the Dalish in any manner to point their bows at any human they meet.

[jlb524]

I wonder what would happen if an armed group of Dalish tried to walk into Viscount's Keep?

[Xilizhra]

jlb524 wrote...

I wonder what would happen if an armed group of Dalish tried to walk into Viscount's Keep?

Well, what happens when a heavily armed group of apostate mages tries to walk into the Viscount's Keep?

That aside, they'd probably be stopped or killed before they arrived...

[jlb524]

Xilizhra wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

I wonder what would happen if an armed group of Dalish tried to walk into Viscount's Keep?

Well, what happens when a heavily armed group of apostate mages tries to walk into the Viscount's Keep?

That aside, they'd probably be stopped or killed before they arrived...

I see the situation with Hawke and company approaching the Dalish camp and asking to see their Keeper (i.e., their 'Viscount') as quite similar.

[jamesp81]

jlb524 wrote...

I wonder what would happen if an armed group of Dalish tried to walk into Viscount's Keep?

An armed group of anything will generally be killed before entering the keep absent special circumstances (such as Hawke and company being allowed, apparently, and the Qunari delegation being allowed with their weapons tied).

I expect them to at least pay lip service to civility.  If they don't want to do that, then fine.  Any action they take that's OK for them is also OK for me to take against them.

[jamesp81]

jlb524 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

I wonder what would happen if an armed group of Dalish tried to walk into Viscount's Keep?

Well, what happens when a heavily armed group of apostate mages tries to walk into the Viscount's Keep?

That aside, they'd probably be stopped or killed before they arrived...

I see the situation with Hawke and company approaching the Dalish camp and asking to see their Keeper (i.e., their 'Viscount') as quite similar.

Their 'viscount' has guards on hand, just like Kirkwall's viscount.  This is not a problem.  The problem is that the Dalish and their guards act like they're barely in control of some kind of deep abiding need to kill.  The viscount and his guards seem to appreciate a bit of civility and also seem to understand that things go better when death threats are not used as normal conversational pieces.

[Sepewrath]

jamesp81 wrote...
I think you missed the meaning of the phrase "no use", or you're just stirring up trouble.

Put another way:

My first encounter with the Dalish included them making a string of death threats towards someone they didn't know who had given no offense to them.  Even after Hawke helps them out, their aggressive, borderline violent attitude doesn't abate.  I then learned that the entire clan ostracized the friendliest, most lovable person I can encounter in the game.  Then after she leaves with me, her supposed mentor doesn't waste any time convincing the rest of the clan that she's the devil incarnate.

Well being in all their history as a species is defined by abuses by humans, what you expect them to welcome you with open arms? And you didn't help them, you only had to interact with them to hold up your end of a bargain you had with Flemeth and you killed the Varterral because of Merrill trying to get that tool. If not for those things, I don't see Hawke ever being anymore helpful to them any other random person is.

And they ostracized her because she was doing something stupid and dangerous, a nice person twirling a loaded gun on their finger, is just an idiot twirling a loaded gun. Being nice, good intentions, doesn't abdicate a person of any wrong doing and the consequences of those actions.

Modifié par Sepewrath, 23 août 2011 - 08:48 .

[jamesp81]

Sepewrath wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...
I think you missed the meaning of the phrase "no use", or you're just stirring up trouble.

Put another way:

My first encounter with the Dalish included them making a string of death threats towards someone they didn't know who had given no offense to them.  Even after Hawke helps them out, their aggressive, borderline violent attitude doesn't abate.  I then learned that the entire clan ostracized the friendliest, most lovable person I can encounter in the game.  Then after she leaves with me, her supposed mentor doesn't waste any time convincing the rest of the clan that she's the devil incarnate.

Well being in all their history as a species is defined by the abuse of humans, what you expect them to welcome you with open arms? And you didn't help them, you only had to interact with them to hold up your end of a bargain you had with Flemeth and you killed the Varterral because of Merrill trying to get that tool. If not for those things, I don't see Hawke ever being anymore helpful to them any other random person is.

And they ostracized her because she was doing something stupid and dangerous, a nice person twirling a loaded gun on their finger, is just an idiot twirling a loaded gun. Being nice, good intentions, doesn't abdicate a person of any wrong doing and the consequences of those actions.

So Hawke is to blame for what has been done to the Dalish, then?

[Sepewrath]

No, but like the above poster said, in that situation would you care? If some aliens came down, tore the Earth apart, killed your family and friends and then you saw one of these aliens, would your response be to walk up and shake their hand? Or put a bullet between their eyes?

[jamesp81]

Sepewrath wrote...

No, but like the above poster said, in that situation would you care? If some aliens came down, tore the Earth apart, killed your family and friends and then you saw one of these aliens, would your response be to walk up and shake their hand? Or put a bullet between their eyes?

Bad analogy.  The situation presupposes a state of open warfare between humans and your hypothetical aliens.

The Dalish and the humans are not at war in DA2.  In fact, the Dalish and the humans have not been at war for several generations if I remember right.

If one of the aliens came back several generations after the war then no, I wouldn't shoot first and ask questions later.  That's what uncivilized animals do.

Modifié par jamesp81, 23 août 2011 - 08:57 .

[Sepewrath]

Not even, you can think of that example as years later, a decade or two of subjugation, what would your response be? And sure Hawke could respond like that and being in all its the PC, they would obviously slaughter the whole lot of them. But a person who would disregard, that these are people who have lost their entire culture to humanity, who has been betrayed, enslaved and are still subjugated, as they either have to live in an alienage or be constantly on the move outside of Rivain. A person who ignores all that and takes their attitude towards them, personally, I don't think much of a person like that.

[thats1evildude]

Merrill is a breath of fresh air in this regard: she's not all "rah rah shems suck".

Modifié par thats1evildude, 23 août 2011 - 09:08 .

[jamesp81]

Sepewrath wrote...

Not even, you can think of that example as years later, a decade or two of subjugation, what would your response be? And sure Hawke could respond like that and being in all its the PC, they would obviously slaughter the whole lot of them. But a person who would disregard, that these are people who have lost their entire culture to humanity, who has been betrayed, enslaved and are still subjugated, as they either have to live in an alienage or be constantly on the move outside of Rivain. A person who ignores all that and takes their attitude towards them, personally, I don't think much of a person like that.

Hawke is not responsible for what happened to the Dalish.  To treat him like he is says many things about the Dalish, and none of them are good.

If my Ferelden patriot Warden can befriend an Orlesian spy and Hawke can learn to tolerate the more reasonable templars, the Dalish can behave in a civilized manner when someone who has offered them no insult visits on business.

The only conceivable legit gripe the Dalish have is the way the city elves are packed into alienages.  But the Dalish look down on the city-born as if they are lesser creatures, so that's out.  That kind of outlines how much it sucks to be a city-born elf.  It's akin to being born casteless in Orzammar.  City elves are viewed as second class citizens not just by humans, but by their own people as well.  The Dalish have it much better than the city-elves, yet I hear many times more whining and ****ing from the Dalish elves as from the city-born.  The only elves I've run into that weren't busy sharpening the chips on their shoulders were the elven Circle Mages.

Personally, I find the two dalish clans that you can interact with across both games to be profoundly racist (the Brecilian clan wasn't as bad as the Sundermount clan, however.  Some of the Brecilian Dalish have some damned sense).  Worse, in some ways, than the nobles that pack the city elves into alienages.

Frankly, the least racist nation in all of Thedas is Orzammar.  The dwarves are short and rude at times, but they respect any and all that have earned it.  Ferelden is a somewhat distant second behind the dwarves.  They still have alienages, but the Landsmeet (in my game at least) put that lying, traitorous, slave trading bastard Loghain to the sword for what he'd done.

Modifié par jamesp81, 23 août 2011 - 09:23 .

[jamesp81]

thats1evildude wrote...

Merrill is a breath of fresh air in this regard: she's not all "rah rah shems suck".

And that's kind of the point.  She seems to have some basic manners and civility.  Too bad the rest of her clan didn't learn from her.

[Sepewrath]

Well of course Hawke is not responsible, but like I said, a person in that situation does not care. The bad blood between humans and elves isn't going to go away overnight, the same way as in the real world, look how long it took African Americans and Whites to bury the hatchet in the US. And the elves are still currently subjugated, so the process of burying the hatchet hasn't even begun yet. So you have no reason to expect anything but anger and mistrust from them.

And if the Orlesian spy your talking about is Leliana, the one who considers herself a Fereldan, I would have say bad example. And I would think another legit gripe is they cant have a home, if they tried to settle pretty much anywhere permanently, they would have armies beating down their door. Their not nomads because they like it.

[thats1evildude]

jamesp81 wrote...

The only conceivable legit gripe the Dalish have is the way the city elves are packed into alienages.  But the Dalish look down on the city-born as if they are lesser creatures, so that's out.

That's hardly the only gripe that the Dalish have with the humans. Setting aside the destruction of Arlathan and the invasion of the Dales, humans are shown throughout Origins and Awakening to constantly antagonize the Dalish elves.

Zathrian's vendetta against the werewolves stemmed originally from an attempt by human barbarians to drive the elves out of the forest. If you let the humans go in the Dalish origin, they lie about mistreatment at your hands and rile up a mob to drive you out. In Awakening, humans tried to drive Velanna's clan out of the Wending Wood. And in the epilogue, humans murder a Dalish child in retaliation for Velanna's attacks on trade caravans.

It's still unfair of Merrill's clan to be rude to Hawke even after s/he proves to be an ally, but it's not entirely without justification. They get harried plenty by the humans, even when there's no justification for it.

jamesp81 wrote...

Frankly, the least racist nation in all of Thedas is Orzammar.  The dwarves are short and rude at times, but they respect any and all that have earned it.

PFFFT. What, are you kidding? Did you play through the Dwarf Commoner origin? Dwarves are so prejudiced that it's part of their whole culture.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 23 août 2011 - 09:34 .

[jamesp81]

Sepewrath wrote...

Well of course Hawke is not responsible, but like I said, a person in that situation does not care.

Then that person has a problem.

As for Arlathan, that was the Tevinter Imperium.  Explain to me how it is that a Ferelden living in the Free Marches is responsible for the actions of the Tevinter magisters.

This is one area I agree with Fenris on.  "The smug sense of superiority does give it away".

Velanna, by the way, is a perfect example of why humans are not inclined to grant the elves a home.  Darkspawn killed her sister.  She jumped to an incorrect conclusion and then butchered a goodly number of humans for it.  **** LIKE THAT is why the elves are not permitted a homeland and I find it hard to blame Ferelden for not giving them one.

Modifié par jamesp81, 23 août 2011 - 09:43 .

[tmp7704]

jamesp81 wrote...

Put another way:

My first encounter with the Dalish included them making a string of death threats towards someone they didn't know who had given no offense to them.

(..)

If it weren't for caring about what Merrill thinks, my Hawke would've gladly fought and destroyed them without a second thought.  It's not as if he hadn't fought others for lesser offenses in his travels.  I only hope her clan one day realizes that their lives were preserved because of the very person they despised most.

To put it yet another way, you're all ready to murder bunch of people because they weren't civil to you from the onset. Although they still let you in their camp and were perfectly willing to conduct business with you.

Ponder on it, and your own attitude. Maybe this is actually a situation where that second thought is quite warranted.

[jlb524]

I bring fan art



link

It's adorable.

[jlb524]

jamesp81 wrote...

Their 'viscount' has guards on hand, just like Kirkwall's viscount.  This is not a problem.  The problem is that the Dalish and their guards act like they're barely in control of some kind of deep abiding need to kill.  The viscount and his guards seem to appreciate a bit of civility and also seem to understand that things go better when death threats are not used as normal conversational pieces.

In my hypothetical, you believe the Viscount's guards would be civil to a small group of Dalish elves that just marched up to the Keep and asked to see him?  You don't think they'd threaten the elves to mind themselves or it will be their death?

[Mr.House]

jlb524 wrote...

I bring fan art



link

It's adorable.