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[ChaplainTappman]

Jacopo07 wrote...

I would blame the sword if it could suddenly turn against the swordsman while he's wielding it! xD

Merrill is a skilled mage, of course, and maybe too skilled to succumb, but,
since we can't know that in the game, it's reasonable to think that she could be dead without Marethari's intervention...

It's not the sword's fault if the swordsman lacks the skill and training to wield it without lopping his hand off.

But you're right, we have no way of knowing. She might be strong willed enough, she might not be. I choose to believe she is. You choose to believe otherwise. Neither of us is wrong.

[Jacopo07]

mmm.. I think the comparison with weapon doesn't fit anymore, since we are talking of things that have willpower, however, I won't argue anymore about blood magic anymore, at last, it's a matter of personal opinions, right...

moreover, if it was certain that Merrill was able to handle the situation, there would have been no need, for example, to do things like denying her the Arluin'holm and the whole rivalry path would have been pointless...

i'm pretty sure, by the way, that the whole matter should come back in future, especially if the mirror was preserved at the end of the quest, since it doesn't seems she really gave up her purpose. This is a big chance to have Merrill back again as well! ^^

[DoNotIngest]

The Rivalry path is for if you don't think she's capable of it, or don't want to risk it. You have no real idea if she can or not. She's devoted to it, and you're saying 1) You're not good enough for this, or 2) You mean too much for me to risk it. I don't like this because I wouldn't try to control somebody in a real relationship.

The Friendship path is believing in Merrill, however, as nothing is ever certain, there's always a chance something goes wrong. The point is, you have faith in her that it won't go wrong, and that in turn can bolster her confidance, too. The better of the two by far IMO


And let's not forget. Merrill asked Hawke to go with her; She wasn't sneaking off to meet this demon in private. This isn't the Fade, where everything seems like a dream; I really don't think Merrill would betray Hawke after 6 years together, 3 romantically, especially if he was standing right beside her. And he's there to take care of Big Bad Mr.Pride Demon if he doesn't hold up his end of the bargain. (Or, if his end is to be released in exchange for how to fix the mirror. I think Merrill & Hawke would kill it whether it held up it's end or not, heh heh heh)



@Raptor; I looked at that site, it's very nice. The "Carver wants to get into your pants" one was GOLDEN.

[LobselVith8]

ChaplainTappman wrote...

Also, it's worth noting that Hawke has already disappeared, and Merrill is already with him/her. So on the one hand, awwww twu wuv. On the other hand, this means that Merrill will likely not have a large role in DA3, unless Hawke is the PC.

Personally, I think we'll be playing as a Seeker in DA3.

True, Merrill doesn't leave Hawke's side if she's romanced. I like the thought of my apostate Hawke leaving with Merrill into the unknown. Two blood mages disappearing into the night after defeating the despot of Kirkwall and becoming part of mage legend...

As for being a Seeker in Dragon Age 3... I hope that's not the case. I find the Chantry repellant, and I have no interest in playing a protagonist who is a member of their organization.

[Giggles_Manically]

You technically play one if you play as a mage in DAO.

[Xilizhra]

As for being a Seeker in Dragon Age 3... I hope that's not the case. I find the Chantry repellant, and I have no interest in playing a protagonist who is a member of their organization.

Maybe you'll only have the option to become one if you side with them. Or you can rebel and leave.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 19 septembre 2011 - 04:06 .

[DoNotIngest]

LobselVith8 wrote...

As for being a Seeker in Dragon Age 3... I hope that's not the case. I find the Chantry repellant, and I have no interest in playing a protagonist who is a member of their organization.

This. Especially if we have to spend the game in Orlais. Ugh. Y'know, besides the fact that Hawke&Co are too good not to expand upon.



And this is probably just me, but I just realized... We'd play as a covert, seperate-from-Chantry-law Seeker who assembled their team of companions to prevent the destruction of Thedas, right? Remind you of playing as a covert, seperate-from-Council-law Spectre who assembled their team of companions to prevent the destruction of the Galaxy?




Edit: @Xil, that wouldn't be so bad, but I don't think Bioware will be tailoring to more than one main storyline. And Seeker or Rebel to the Seekers would probably be very different.

Modifié par DoNotIngest, 19 septembre 2011 - 04:08 .

[LobselVith8]

Jacopo07 wrote...

of course she had no intention to free the demon... maybe i wasn't clear in the last post, but, as i said before, Merrill's intentions were indeed good and noble, no doubt about that, the problem was that she had to deal with a demon, and you can't say that making risky deals with demon is a good way to achieve your goals, no?

The Warden can do precisely that in Redcliffe, dealing with a denizen of the Fade and through dialogue alone, he can end up freeing Connor from the Desire Demon's grasp and gaining the knowledge of blood magic. Since Merrill was trying to change the plight of her people after centuries of turmoil, I respect her being pro-active in trying to aid her people. Merrill's actions could have irrevocably changed the lives of elves across Thedas for the better, but we'll never know for sure.

Jacopo07 wrote...

Marethari knew it, and prevent Merrill to hurt herself and the people she loves by freeing the demon itself.

Marethari made the decision to let loose a demon into her own body without telling anyone about it, while Merrill asked Hawke to accompany her so she could protect innocents from the worst case scenerio.

Jacopo07 wrote...

Even if Merrill was unaware of this, she would have made another deal with the demon, and this, imho, it's a bad idea, i mean, she was pratically going to throw away her life, i think we all know that..

Merrill dealt with Audacity to learn blood magic, and she successfully cleansed the shard, which is why she isn't tainted like the elves in the Elven Ruins (in Witch Hunt). Merrill was dealing with a demon who was imprisoned by ancient elven magic inside a totem.

Jacopo07 wrote...

she has all the good reason to use blood magic (tough she sometimes seemed quite unreasonable, but, hey, she looked even more adorable to me, because of this^^) but honestly i can't think at it as a good way to have things done..

The Grey Wardens clearly think otherwise, given The Joining and the Grey Warden mages who use blood magic against the darkspawn.

Jacopo07 wrote...

It's like anders'situation, to me, just not so "excessive": freeing mage from the templars may be a noble intention... blowing up churches to achieve that, well...

And plenty of people have argued in favor of what Anders did because they see the Chantry controlled Circles as being wrong, deplorable, or even slavery. That's why the threads dealing with mages (and even Anders) tend to go as high as 50 pages or more, because people have strong opinions on the issue.

Jacopo07 wrote...

ChaplainTappman wrote...

Blood magic, like any magic, is a tool. Do you blame the sword or the swordsman?

The "evil" in blood magic comes primarily from the fact that it's often practiced by weak mages. These mages attract demons that are too powerful for them to resist, and they succumb to possession. But Merrill isn't weak, and she's philosophically protected against possession in a way Circle mages aren't.

I would blame the sword if it could suddenly turn against the swordsman while he's wielding it! xD

Blood magic doesn't do that. If people misuse blood magic the same way that an untrained swordsman uses a sword, then they can get hurt because of their own inexperience.

Jacopo07 wrote...

Merrill is a skilled mage, of course, and maybe too skilled to succumb, but, since we can't know that in the game, it's reasonable to think that she could be dead without Marethari's intervention...

Merrill nearly died because of Marethari's intervention.

[DoNotIngest]

@Lobsel; Great post, very satisfying to see some familiar logic laid out so well =)


And I wonder if Audacity would be any more powerful than usual since he'd possessed the body of a willing, powerful Elvhen mage? Kind of an idle question, but if he was, it just makes me even more dissapointed with Marethari...

[jlb524]

Xilizhra wrote...

Maybe you'll only have the option to become one if you side with them. Or you can rebel and leave.

We were forced to be a Warden in DA:O.  If they'd do a rebel Seeker thing, I'd imagine you couldn't rebel until later in the narrative.

DoNotIngest wrote...

And I wonder if Audacity would be any more powerful than usual since he'd possessed the body of a willing, powerful Elvhen mage? Kind of an idle question, but if he was, it just makes me even more dissapointed with Marethari...

I'd imagine.  I think it's easier with a willing host and Marethari is definitely more powerful than Merrill and probably most mages around Kirkwall.

I still wonder why the Audacity/Marethari abomination simply didn't GTFO of Sundermount and stayed around to risk being defeated and banished back to the Fade by Hawke/Merrill/and co.

Modifié par jlb524, 19 septembre 2011 - 04:20 .

[LobselVith8]

DoNotIngest wrote...

@Lobsel; Great post, very satisfying to see some familiar logic laid out so well =)


And I wonder if Audacity would be any more powerful than usual since he'd possessed the body of a willing, powerful Elvhen mage? Kind of an idle question, but if he was, it just makes me even more dissapointed with Marethari...

Thanks, DoNotIngest. I respect what Merrill does. Everyone in the narrative of Dragon Age 2 takes risks, including Hawke (who even asks companions to risk their lives so his family can be rich), so I don't see what's different about Merrill trying to help the People by restoring ancient elven technology that can prove useful (which is the entire premise behind the Dalish - who are supposed to restore the past and teach their brethern about what they have forgotten since the fall of Arlathan).

I'd imagine Audacity having control over an elven mage (especially the Keeper who should have access to many arcane secrets given her role) would give Audacity power in the same way that the Pride Demon controlling Uldred had power during "A Broken Circle."

[DoNotIngest]

jlb524 wrote...
I still wonder why the Audacity/Marethari abomination simply didn't GTFO of Sundermount and stayed around to risk being defeated and banished back to the Fade by Hawke/Merrill/and co.

Well, it IS a Pride Demon... And it would have known Marethari was more powerful than Merrill. Would Marethari have even suspected Merrill to take Hawke with her? It's a little unprecedented if Hawke didn't romance her. When I got to thinking about it, I really came to appreciate the significance of Merrill asking Hawke to come along.

[TEWR]

of course she had no intention to free the demon... maybe i wasn't clear in the last post, but, as i said before, Merrill's intentions were indeed good and noble, no doubt about that, the problem was that she had to deal with a demon, and you can't say that making risky deals with demon is a good way to achieve your goals, no?

I can say it's a good way to achieve your goals when the demon was trapped in a statue for centuries and would continue to be trapped unless someone freed him. The demon was sundered from the Fade much like Justice was and the Eluvians do not link to the Fade. They link beyond it.

I can say it's a good way to achieve your goals considering Hawke and the Warden are able to do the same thing. Sophia Dryden, Torpor, the Desire Demon in Redcliffe, Kitty, the Hunger Demon in the Deep Roads, etc. All of them carry a risk, but the Warden and Hawke are trying to play the demon before they themselves get played. There is no guarantee of success, and yet they are still deigning to deal with the demon in the hopes of outsmarting it.

Merrill is no different.

Marethari knew it, and prevent Merrill to hurt herself and the people she loves by freeing the demon itself.

The same Marethari that said Audacity was trapped in the statue for centuries, would continue to stay trapped, and couldn't harm anyone? The same Marethari that thinks it's better to become an Abomination secretly and not tell anyone in her clan, going so far as to return to them and put them at risk? 

The same Marethari that pulled information on the Eluvian from nowhere when she never studied them at all? The same Marethari that's trusting the word of a demon yet told Merrill not to, and that makes her a hypocrite?

Ah yes, that Marethari.

Marethari understood nothing and let her own pointless fears cloud her judgement.

Even if Merrill was unaware of this, she would have made another deal with the demon, and this, imho, it's a bad idea, i mean, she was pratically going to throw away her life, i think we all know that..

No it wasn't and no she wasn't. All she wanted to do was find out why Audacity was being a douchebag and not responding to her. If you romance her on the friendship path, she realizes that the mirror isn't what's most important to her. Hawke is. So it then turns from an obsession to a devoted project.

Doesn't sound like she's throwing her life away to me. Especially since Hawke can encourage her to still work on the Eluvian.

she has all the good reason to use blood magic (tough she sometimes seemed quite unreasonable, but, hey, she looked even more adorable to me, because of this^^) but honestly i can't think at it as a good way to have things done..

I can, considering blood magic has been proven to combat the taint not just by Merrill but by Avernus. Avernus was able to forestall his Calling, but since the Taint was in his blood he couldn't cleanse himself completely as it was constantly circulating. The shard of the Eluvian however is a lifeless object with no blood, and could be cleansed entirely.

If she had buckets of lyrium she could've used that, but she didn't. Blood magic is a tool, and not an inherently evil one. That she chooses to only use her own blood and to never harm anyone speaks volumes about her character.

[TEWR]

I'd imagine Audacity having control over an elven mage (especially the Keeper who should have access to many arcane secrets given her role) would give Audacity power in the same way that the Pride Demon controlling Uldred had power during "A Broken Circle."

Indeed. Marethari says in DAO that Merrill knows some of Marethari's spells, so she was obviously a mage that had more training. Though I believe that Merrill surpassed Marethari in all regards later on.

Also, I hope the gameplay on Abominations improves. Uldred, Marethari, and every other Abomination were just plain disappointing. Even Anders, because Justice barely appeared throughout the game.

[DrFumb1ezX]

I think one of the greatest parts of Merrill is how she changes during the game.
Act 1 she's supremely confidant of what she can do.
Act 2 after her quest, she's shaken up in her beliefs and becomes more cautious (I also like to think she's more cautious because of Hawke, if romanced) because of what Keeper Marethari has said to the clan and her own experiences.
Act 3 comes along, and now she fully realizes she cannot do this alone, and so asks for Hawke's help.
She's the best example of a dynamic character in DA2, imho.

[DoNotIngest]

This just occurred to me... What kind of damage would Merrill be inflicting on herself with all that cutting? Let's pretend the cuts were given time to heal a bit in between (We all know nobody could go cutting themselves 400 times per mission).

I regret bringing it up already. Wrist-cutting is my nails-on-chalkboard.

[Wulfram]

I'd be more concerned with the stabbing yourself in the stomach thing than the wrist cutting.

[DoNotIngest]

I (And it seems others, too) tend to just try to ignore that one. It is just a flashy move-effect, right?

She actually cuts her wrists in cutscenes (AUGH PUNS). And she'd most likely be using them or her palms (Preferably IMO, maybe not more likely though) for fixing the Mirror.

Modifié par DoNotIngest, 19 septembre 2011 - 08:42 .

[thats1evildude]

The matter is academic. All characters in the Dragon Age universe possess upwards of 400 pints of blood in their bodies.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 19 septembre 2011 - 08:49 .

[DoNotIngest]

Whatever. I thought it was a perfectly good Merrill-related topic.

[TEWR]

DoNotIngest wrote...

I (And it seems others, too) tend to just try to ignore that one. It is just a flashy move-effect, right?

She actually cuts her wrists in cutscenes (AUGH PUNS). And she'd most likely be using them or her palms (Preferably IMO, maybe not more likely though) for fixing the Mirror.

Had Grace not done the same move in a cutscene, it would just be a flashy move effect.

[DrFumb1ezX]

thats1evildude wrote...

The matter is academic. All characters in the Dragon Age universe possess upwards of 400 pints of blood in their bodies.

Yeah, seriously. What's up with all that blood, yo?

By Cherrysplice13

Modifié par soccerchick, 19 septembre 2011 - 09:03 .

[lobi]

Grate, another Emo girlfriend.

Merril: Sandal keeps staring at me.
Hawk: It's because your odd, deal.

(and no I did not miss-spell 'Great')

[Jacopo07]

well, i tried to express my opinions the best i could do, i'm aware that plenty of you may disagree, but it doesn't seems to me that what i wrote was unreasonable.. i'll try to explain myself better then:

LobselVith8 wrote...


The Warden can do precisely that in Redcliffe, dealing with a denizen of the Fade and through dialogue alone, he can end up freeing Connor from the Desire Demon's grasp and gaining the knowledge of blood magic. Since Merrill was trying to change the plight of her people after centuries of turmoil, I respect her being pro-active in trying to aid her people. Merrill's actions could have irrevocably changed the lives of elves across Thedas for the better, but we'll never know for sure.

The choice of using of using BM in origins is risky as well, the warden is adviced several times by npc, and, even in that situation, it was a questionable decision: risking the life of one mage (or more, depending on the situation you all know) to save connor's. A noble task indeed, but still dangerous..

I respect her purpose to restore ancient elven lore as well, i said that a couple of times, but this doesn't mean that you must allow her to pose a threat to people around her.. you may want to justify her, in a playthrogh my cautious Hawke prefered to choose differently.

LobselVith8 wrote...
Marethari made the decision to let loose a demon into her own body without telling anyone about it, while Merrill asked Hawke to accompany her so she could protect innocents from the worst case scenerio.

LobselVith8 wrote...
The Grey Wardens clearly think otherwise, given The Joining and the Grey Warden mages who use blood magic against the darkspawn.

what? this is not blood magic! I didn't saw any blood ritual in the Joining... it's just drinking tainted blood and pray to survive.. I saw no spells casted.. maybe I'm mistaken, but i'm pretty sure this has nothing to do with blood rituals...
The Order needs all the help available to fight darkspawn, blood mage aren't criminals, it's obvious.. i'm not saying "blood magic should never be used", i'd rather say "use blood magic as an extreme solution" and Merrill's purpose is not enough to my Hawke to put so many people in danger: her clan, her people..

This doesn't mean that I don't acknokledge her, I did it in some playthroughs, it's just my "canon" Hawke's will to protect her even from herself, because he loves her, I think you can't blame me about that xP

- and, notice, that it doesn't necessarily mean distrust.

LobselVith8 wrote...
And plenty of people have argued in favor of what Anders did because they see the Chantry controlled Circles as being wrong, deplorable, or even slavery. That's why the threads dealing with mages (and even Anders) tend to go as high as 50 pages or more, because people have strong opinions on the issue.

again, it's strictly about personal opinions, I was just trying to compare xD

LobselVith8 wrote...
Merrill nearly died because of Marethari's intervention.

The keeper willingly allowed the demon to posses her body in attempt to prevent him from escaping his prison, because she knew that Merrill would have freed him.
She obviously lost control and the demon tried to kill Hawke & co. but, what if she had not interfered? Who can say that Merrill would have surely survived the "friendly chat" with the demon?

In the end, I don't want to annoy anyone with my points of view, just explaining why I would chose a rival path with Merrill (and a rivalmance) without considering myself mean or selfish ^^

always open to your suggestions, by the way!

[TEWR]

what? this is not blood magic! I didn't saw any blood ritual in the Joining... it's just drinking tainted blood and pray to survive.. I saw no spells casted.. maybe I'm mistaken, but i'm pretty sure this has nothing to do with blood rituals...
The Order needs all the help available to fight darkspawn, blood mage aren't criminals, it's obvious.. i'm not saying "blood magic should never be used", i'd rather say "use blood magic as an extreme solution" and Merrill's purpose is not enough to my Hawke to put so many people in danger: her clan, her people..

Wrong. The Joining is blood magic. A mage of the circle wrote a report on the Reaver joining, saying that a ritualized consumption of blood is in fact blood magic since it grants the drinker abilities. The Joining is also a ritualized consumption of blood that grants abilities, and is therefore blood magic

Blood magic is about more than just using your blood for abilities. It's also about gaining abilities and powers from blood.

edit: just a note: I tend to start something by saying "Wrong" when people are wrong (obviously ).

Also, it's easy for someone to say that something doesn't warrant blood magic when that someone hasn't lost their entire culture to the passage of time as well as to humans.

Were you a Dalish elf, you might feel differently

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 19 septembre 2011 - 10:22 .