Bioware did a very good job driving home the "BLOOD MAGIC IS BAD" point in DA:O. It's the main reason for most Merrill hate =/
Merrill - She's a Keeper!
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Maria Caliban
, janv. 10 2011 10:17
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#15452
Posté 20 septembre 2011 - 01:40
thats1evildude
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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Wrong. The Joining is blood magic. A mage of the circle wrote a report on the Reaver joining, saying that a ritualized consumption of blood is in fact blood magic since it grants the drinker abilities. The Joining is also a ritualized consumption of blood that grants abilities, and is therefore blood magic
I assume you're quoting the codex on dragon cults? It doesn't quite say that:
"Members of a dragon cult live in the same lair as a high dragon, nurturing and protecting its defenseless young. In exchange, the high dragon seem to permit those cultists to kill a small number of those young in order to feast on draconic blood. That blood is said to have a number of strange long-term effects, including bestowing greater strength and endurance, as well as an increased desire to kill. It may breed insanity as well. Nevarran dragon-hunters have said these cultists are incredibly powerful opponents. The changes in the cultists are a form of blood magic, surely, but how did the symbiotic relationship between the cult and the high dragon form in the first place?"
It posits that the creation of reavers is a form of blood magic, but stop short of classifying ALL ritualized consumption of blood is blood magic.
That said, the Joining … is a bit of a gray area.
DoNotIngest wrote...
Bioware did a very good job driving home the "BLOOD MAGIC IS BAD" point in DA:O. It's the main reason for most Merrill hate =/
You might think so, but before the release of DA2, I still had to argue with people who insisted that blood magic couldn't be used to control minds without consent, or that it was taught by demons. The point kind of got hammered home in DA2, however.
Modifié par thats1evildude, 20 septembre 2011 - 01:46 .
#15453
Posté 20 septembre 2011 - 01:47
TEWR
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DoNotIngest wrote...
Bioware did a very good job driving home the "BLOOD MAGIC IS BAD" point in DA:O. It's the main reason for most Merrill hate =/
Yea I agree. At first I hated blood magic, but when I found out it could combat the taint in the Wardens like Avernus did and that Darkspawn could be used as blood sacrifices like the Baroness did to the First, I began to see that it was just a tool that was misused way too often.
Not to mention Jowan using blood magic for good purposes to make up for what happened in Redcliffe.
#15454
Posté 20 septembre 2011 - 01:55
thats1evildude
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I think Merrill is a good enough person not to be corrupted by the use of blood magic. It's dangerous, though, and just because I think Merrill has the sense not to abuse it doesn't mean there should be no restrictions on blood magic.
Modifié par thats1evildude, 20 septembre 2011 - 01:59 .
#15455
Posté 20 septembre 2011 - 01:59
TEWR
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thats1evildude wrote...
I think Merrill is a good enough person not to be corrupted by the use of blood magic. It's dangerous, though, and just because Merrill has the sense not to abuse it doesn't mean that blood magic should be practiced openly.
Definitely not openly, but only to those people who have proven they have good intentions. Jowan, Hawke, Malcolm, the Warden, Merrill, etc.
#15456
Posté 20 septembre 2011 - 01:21
Jacopo07
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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Wrong. The Joining is blood magic. A mage of the circle wrote a report on the Reaver joining, saying that a ritualized consumption of blood is in fact blood magic since it grants the drinker abilities. The Joining is also a ritualized consumption of blood that grants abilities, and is therefore blood magic
Blood magic is about more than just using your blood for abilities. It's also about gaining abilities and powers from blood.
As thats1evildude said and as I remember, we can't define the Joining a Blood Magic, however, this is not the main topic..
The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Also, it's easy for someone to say that something doesn't warrant blood magic when that someone hasn't lost their entire culture to the passage of time as well as to humans.
Were you a Dalish elf, you might feel differently
I specified "my Hawke" in the previous post, to underline that I'm not a BM hater, it's just that in most of my playthroughs I tend to avoid using this kind of magic because is too dangerous to be controlled, in games is said several times that even the most skilled mages can succumb if they are not extremely cautious, so why should I act like if I already know that everything is going to be all right even if I risk a lot because I'm the hero?
In Merrill case, she wanted to restore the ancient lore of her race, my Hawke refused to ler her take all the risk of this, because he cared for her and didn't want her to get hurt. In terms of roleplaying, you may not agree, but can't say this is an unfair behaviour.
You're right, I might think differently, as a Dalish, but I want some of my Hawkes to act according to my opinions.
Speaking about roleplaying again, infact, my mage Hawke always agreed with Merrill's use of blood magic and helped her in the process, then I know that helping her may be fair as well, and could be a sign of true care, but can also be considered differently.
#15457
Posté 20 septembre 2011 - 02:20
Giggles_Manically
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Really depends on my Hawke truth be told.
My little daddies girl Hawke who opposes blood magic, disagrees with Merrill.
While Loki the snarkiest man in Thedas who is a blood mage agrees with her.
Personally I have nothing against blood magic, or magic since I consider it a tool, and the wielder to be far more important. But I dont support her dealing with demons and like Aveline says:
"All but daring the fade to take her".
If it was not for the demon stuff I would be perfectly fine with it, but being genre savy enough I see that demon dealing always goes bad.
My little daddies girl Hawke who opposes blood magic, disagrees with Merrill.
While Loki the snarkiest man in Thedas who is a blood mage agrees with her.
Personally I have nothing against blood magic, or magic since I consider it a tool, and the wielder to be far more important. But I dont support her dealing with demons and like Aveline says:
"All but daring the fade to take her".
If it was not for the demon stuff I would be perfectly fine with it, but being genre savy enough I see that demon dealing always goes bad.
#15458
Posté 20 septembre 2011 - 02:38
DoNotIngest
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Giggles_Manically wrote...
If it was not for the demon stuff I would be perfectly fine with it, but being genre savy enough I see that demon dealing always goes bad.
Act 1, Deep Roads, Hawke, Varric, and potentially Merrill in the party;
Hawke: 'Kay, we'll do dat, then u give us key, amirite?
Demon: Yus.
*standing in front of treasurez*
Demon: HAY! Dat no part of the deal, u halp me, now here key. KTHXBAI
Hawke: YO VARRIC
Varric: *one-shots Demon*
/Le treasures
(Just thought I'd detail a deal with a demon that not only went perfectly to plan, but was then followed up by ripping off the demon even more. Potentially with Merrill taking notes the whole time
)
#15459
Posté 20 septembre 2011 - 02:49
Giggles_Manically
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The PC does NOT count in regards to this.
The PC always has the plot to protect them.
Redcliffe, The Circle in Fereldan, the Keeper, and many others all fall to demons. Why? Because they dont have the PC plot armor.
It would be a rather funny non-standard game over though to see the PC get possessed if they tried dealing with a demon though.
Mostly though its a fairly safe idea to NOT mess with demons though in many genres.
The PC always has the plot to protect them.
Redcliffe, The Circle in Fereldan, the Keeper, and many others all fall to demons. Why? Because they dont have the PC plot armor.
It would be a rather funny non-standard game over though to see the PC get possessed if they tried dealing with a demon though.
Mostly though its a fairly safe idea to NOT mess with demons though in many genres.
#15460
Posté 20 septembre 2011 - 02:58
DoNotIngest
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Well, any proof that you can succesfully deal with and/or cheat a demon more than once was thrown away when Marethari had her brilliant idea. So at best, Merrill could take it, at worse, we'll never know (After all, she was never possessed).
#15461
Posté 20 septembre 2011 - 03:34
Giggles_Manically
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Until I see an NPC deal with demons without something bad happening I am not changing my mind.
Personally I would have LOVED having a mage Hawke try and deal with a demon after HAWKE in the fade.
Like tailor a quest that has it prey on you through multiple acts or somethign.
Personally I would have LOVED having a mage Hawke try and deal with a demon after HAWKE in the fade.
Like tailor a quest that has it prey on you through multiple acts or somethign.
#15462
Posté 20 septembre 2011 - 03:41
LobselVith8
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[quote]Jacopo07 wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
The Warden can do precisely that in Redcliffe, dealing with a denizen of the Fade and through dialogue alone, he can end up freeing Connor from the Desire Demon's grasp and gaining the knowledge of blood magic. Since Merrill was trying to change the plight of her people after centuries of turmoil, I respect her being pro-active in trying to aid her people. Merrill's actions could have irrevocably changed the lives of elves across Thedas for the better, but we'll never know for sure. [/quote]
The choice of using of using BM in origins is risky as well, the warden is adviced several times by npc, and, even in that situation, it was a questionable decision: risking the life of one mage (or more, depending on the situation you all know) to save connor's. A noble task indeed, but still dangerous.. [/quote]
The risk seems to be if the blood magic uses all their blood if they are fueling their spells with blood instead of mana, and from summoning too many demons at once through demonology (which is the mistake made by Uldred and Avernus). Merrill was clearly capable of using blood magic for several years without abusing it or harming innocent people.
[quote]Jacopo07 wrote...
I respect her purpose to restore ancient elven lore as well, i said that a couple of times, but this doesn't mean that you must allow her to pose a threat to people around her.. you may want to justify her, in a playthrogh my cautious Hawke prefered to choose differently. [/quote]
Merrill doesn't pose a threat to the people around her because she isn't abusing her abilities. Merrill is the one who has been using blood magic, who has studied the lore and extrapolated information from the shard when she was building the Eluvian (according to Gaider), so I don't see how Hawke has any right to judge her. Merrill's knowledge about blood magic and the Eluvian clearly outstrip Hawke's own.
As the lore on blood magic reads, some mages see blood magic as the only school that's truly free: "The effects can be vile, but this specialization isn’t limited to madmen and monsters. Many see it as the only form of magic that is truly free, because it’s tied to the physical, not favors to spirits or demons."
[quote]Jacopo07 wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
The Grey Wardens clearly think otherwise, given The Joining and the Grey Warden mages who use blood magic against the darkspawn. [/quote]
what? this is not blood magic! I didn't saw any blood ritual in the Joining... it's just drinking tainted blood and pray to survive.. I saw no spells casted.. maybe I'm mistaken, but i'm pretty sure this has nothing to do with blood rituals... [/quote]
The Joining involves blood and magic. It's been said by Gaider that the phylacteries can be viewed of as blood magic when he was interviewed at PAX.
[quote]Jacopo07 wrote...
The Order needs all the help available to fight darkspawn, blood mage aren't criminals, it's obvious.. i'm not saying "blood magic should never be used", i'd rather say "use blood magic as an extreme solution" and Merrill's purpose is not enough to my Hawke to put so many people in danger: her clan, her people.. [/quote]
Merrill didn't put her clan in danger, Marethari did by letting Audacity loose. That had nothing to do with Merrill's blood magic and everything to do with Marethari making a decision of her own free will. And I think Merrill's plan for helping the lives of the People is one of the more noble plans that any character (including Hawke) has in the narrative. Also, as an apostate, Merrill's blood magic gives her the ability to deal with templars - who can nullify ordinary magic.
[quote]Jacopo07 wrote...
This doesn't mean that I don't acknokledge her, I did it in some playthroughs, it's just my "canon" Hawke's will to protect her even from herself, because he loves her, I think you can't blame me about that xP
- and, notice, that it doesn't necessarily mean distrust. [/quote]
I think it's an issue of perception. I have no issue with blood magic, and if we're going by the perceptions of our protagonists: my Surana Warden and my apostate (Antivan-ish) Hawke were both blood mages. The former because the darkspawn are a threat to every sentient race in existance and blood magic would provide an edge against "the fulcrum of true evil," and the latter because the templars were a threat and blood magic was the only form of magic they couldn't disable with their training. Otherwise, apostate Hawke could end up like the saarebas at the end of Act II, who had his powers disabled and his head chopped off by Meredith.
[quote]Jacopo07 wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Merrill nearly died because of Marethari's intervention.[/quote]
The keeper willingly allowed the demon to posses her body in attempt to prevent him from escaping his prison, because she knew that Merrill would have freed him. [/quote]
Marethari says she did it because she thought Audacity would have escaped from the restored Eluvian. She risked the lives of her entire clan because of her assumptions on what might be true.
[quote]Jacopo07 wrote...
She obviously lost control and the demon tried to kill Hawke & co. but, what if she had not interfered? Who can say that Merrill would have surely survived the "friendly chat" with the demon? [/quote]
Considering Marethari never says Merrill was in danger from speaking to the entrapped Audacity, it doesn't seem to be one of the possibilities that the Keeper was considering.
[quote]Jacopo07 wrote...
In the end, I don't want to annoy anyone with my points of view, just explaining why I would chose a rival path with Merrill (and a rivalmance) without considering myself mean or selfish ^^
always open to your suggestions, by the way! [/quote]
Thanks for sharing your perspective, Jacopo07!
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
The Warden can do precisely that in Redcliffe, dealing with a denizen of the Fade and through dialogue alone, he can end up freeing Connor from the Desire Demon's grasp and gaining the knowledge of blood magic. Since Merrill was trying to change the plight of her people after centuries of turmoil, I respect her being pro-active in trying to aid her people. Merrill's actions could have irrevocably changed the lives of elves across Thedas for the better, but we'll never know for sure. [/quote]
The choice of using of using BM in origins is risky as well, the warden is adviced several times by npc, and, even in that situation, it was a questionable decision: risking the life of one mage (or more, depending on the situation you all know) to save connor's. A noble task indeed, but still dangerous.. [/quote]
The risk seems to be if the blood magic uses all their blood if they are fueling their spells with blood instead of mana, and from summoning too many demons at once through demonology (which is the mistake made by Uldred and Avernus). Merrill was clearly capable of using blood magic for several years without abusing it or harming innocent people.
[quote]Jacopo07 wrote...
I respect her purpose to restore ancient elven lore as well, i said that a couple of times, but this doesn't mean that you must allow her to pose a threat to people around her.. you may want to justify her, in a playthrogh my cautious Hawke prefered to choose differently. [/quote]
Merrill doesn't pose a threat to the people around her because she isn't abusing her abilities. Merrill is the one who has been using blood magic, who has studied the lore and extrapolated information from the shard when she was building the Eluvian (according to Gaider), so I don't see how Hawke has any right to judge her. Merrill's knowledge about blood magic and the Eluvian clearly outstrip Hawke's own.
As the lore on blood magic reads, some mages see blood magic as the only school that's truly free: "The effects can be vile, but this specialization isn’t limited to madmen and monsters. Many see it as the only form of magic that is truly free, because it’s tied to the physical, not favors to spirits or demons."
[quote]Jacopo07 wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
The Grey Wardens clearly think otherwise, given The Joining and the Grey Warden mages who use blood magic against the darkspawn. [/quote]
what? this is not blood magic! I didn't saw any blood ritual in the Joining... it's just drinking tainted blood and pray to survive.. I saw no spells casted.. maybe I'm mistaken, but i'm pretty sure this has nothing to do with blood rituals... [/quote]
The Joining involves blood and magic. It's been said by Gaider that the phylacteries can be viewed of as blood magic when he was interviewed at PAX.
[quote]Jacopo07 wrote...
The Order needs all the help available to fight darkspawn, blood mage aren't criminals, it's obvious.. i'm not saying "blood magic should never be used", i'd rather say "use blood magic as an extreme solution" and Merrill's purpose is not enough to my Hawke to put so many people in danger: her clan, her people.. [/quote]
Merrill didn't put her clan in danger, Marethari did by letting Audacity loose. That had nothing to do with Merrill's blood magic and everything to do with Marethari making a decision of her own free will. And I think Merrill's plan for helping the lives of the People is one of the more noble plans that any character (including Hawke) has in the narrative. Also, as an apostate, Merrill's blood magic gives her the ability to deal with templars - who can nullify ordinary magic.
[quote]Jacopo07 wrote...
This doesn't mean that I don't acknokledge her, I did it in some playthroughs, it's just my "canon" Hawke's will to protect her even from herself, because he loves her, I think you can't blame me about that xP
- and, notice, that it doesn't necessarily mean distrust. [/quote]
I think it's an issue of perception. I have no issue with blood magic, and if we're going by the perceptions of our protagonists: my Surana Warden and my apostate (Antivan-ish) Hawke were both blood mages. The former because the darkspawn are a threat to every sentient race in existance and blood magic would provide an edge against "the fulcrum of true evil," and the latter because the templars were a threat and blood magic was the only form of magic they couldn't disable with their training. Otherwise, apostate Hawke could end up like the saarebas at the end of Act II, who had his powers disabled and his head chopped off by Meredith.
[quote]Jacopo07 wrote...
[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...
Merrill nearly died because of Marethari's intervention.[/quote]
The keeper willingly allowed the demon to posses her body in attempt to prevent him from escaping his prison, because she knew that Merrill would have freed him. [/quote]
Marethari says she did it because she thought Audacity would have escaped from the restored Eluvian. She risked the lives of her entire clan because of her assumptions on what might be true.
[quote]Jacopo07 wrote...
She obviously lost control and the demon tried to kill Hawke & co. but, what if she had not interfered? Who can say that Merrill would have surely survived the "friendly chat" with the demon? [/quote]
Considering Marethari never says Merrill was in danger from speaking to the entrapped Audacity, it doesn't seem to be one of the possibilities that the Keeper was considering.
[quote]Jacopo07 wrote...
In the end, I don't want to annoy anyone with my points of view, just explaining why I would chose a rival path with Merrill (and a rivalmance) without considering myself mean or selfish ^^
always open to your suggestions, by the way! [/quote]
Thanks for sharing your perspective, Jacopo07!
#15463
Posté 20 septembre 2011 - 05:45
Giggles_Manically
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Blood magic could very well be the "original" type of magic used on Thedas.
It really seems tied into the shamanistic type of magic that is always used in fantasy pre-history.
It really seems tied into the shamanistic type of magic that is always used in fantasy pre-history.
#15464
Posté 20 septembre 2011 - 11:07
TEWR
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Did you know that Audacity says a sarcastic Hawke's cleverness actually increased Audacity's power?
#15465
Posté 20 septembre 2011 - 11:12
DoNotIngest
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Ah... I can see how that would happen.
Of course, given the Trollin' Option's history with Merrill, it should be no surprise that it backfires on her climax quest >_<
Of course, given the Trollin' Option's history with Merrill, it should be no surprise that it backfires on her climax quest >_<
#15466
Posté 21 septembre 2011 - 03:21
DoNotIngest
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And I'll drop this link off;
http://www.fanfictio...13241/1/Destiny
It's a very detailed fanfic featuring a "Why so serious?" Hawke who resents leadership and wants nothing more than to be the useless drunk, and as of the last few chapters, Merrill. I've enjoyed it so far, even if Merrill has only been present in the last few chapters. It'll feature her and Hawke from now on, building romance and character development. Both are looking very nice so far.
EDIT: And it seems it's still getting updates pretty regularly, to be clear.
http://www.fanfictio...13241/1/Destiny
It's a very detailed fanfic featuring a "Why so serious?" Hawke who resents leadership and wants nothing more than to be the useless drunk, and as of the last few chapters, Merrill. I've enjoyed it so far, even if Merrill has only been present in the last few chapters. It'll feature her and Hawke from now on, building romance and character development. Both are looking very nice so far.
EDIT: And it seems it's still getting updates pretty regularly, to be clear.
Modifié par DoNotIngest, 21 septembre 2011 - 03:21 .
#15467
Posté 21 septembre 2011 - 03:29
Giggles_Manically
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Can I just say that I hate fanfic that just copies the dialouge word for word?
I mean really....
I mean really....
#15468
Posté 21 septembre 2011 - 03:44
TEWR
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Giggles_Manically wrote...
Can I just say that I hate fanfic that just copies the dialouge word for word?
I mean really....
I agree. That's primarily why I hated how a few of my fanfic chapters turned out, but I'm too lazy to edit the dialogue. Still, I've made a note to try and take liberties with the dialogue from now on for my fanfic.
#15469
Posté 21 septembre 2011 - 03:48
Knight of Dane
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Agreed!Giggles_Manically wrote...
Can I just say that I hate fanfic that just copies the dialouge word for word?
I mean really....
#15470
Posté 21 septembre 2011 - 04:33
DoNotIngest
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There's not much direct quoting after the first bit. The latest chapter and a part where they camp on the way back from getting Merrill are especially nice.
Modifié par DoNotIngest, 21 septembre 2011 - 04:35 .
#15471
Posté 21 septembre 2011 - 07:08
LobselVith8
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DoNotIngest wrote...
There's not much direct quoting after the first bit. The latest chapter and a part where they camp on the way back from getting Merrill are especially nice.
Thanks for sharing the link, it's always read about Merrill (even if she's mostly towards the end of the WiP story).
#15472
Posté 21 septembre 2011 - 08:07
DoNotIngest
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LobselVith8 wrote...
DoNotIngest wrote...
There's not much direct quoting after the first bit. The latest chapter and a part where they camp on the way back from getting Merrill are especially nice.
Thanks for sharing the link, it's always read about Merrill (even if she's mostly towards the end of the WiP story).
From the look of the last chapter, the POV will be split between her and Hawke from now on. I'm not complaining
#15473
Posté 22 septembre 2011 - 08:14
TMA LIVE
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Debating if I should jump to Merrill's friendship romance with my Rogue. Been going to Isabela route, but know feeling like I should leap to Merrill.
However, despite hitting on her twice, and giving her the knife, the romance scene didn't happen. Is it because romanced Isabela more, and didn't end the romance on the night?
However, despite hitting on her twice, and giving her the knife, the romance scene didn't happen. Is it because romanced Isabela more, and didn't end the romance on the night?
#15474
Posté 22 septembre 2011 - 08:20
PseudoEthnic
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How did you romance Isabela "more?" Did you propose having a relationship with her, did you leave it as a one night stand? Also, is Merrill's friendship meter above 50? If not, that's proably the problem.TMA LIVE wrote...
Debating if I should jump to Merrill's friendship romance with my Rogue. Been going to Isabela route, but know feeling like I should leap to Merrill.
However, despite hitting on her twice, and giving her the knife, the romance scene didn't happen. Is it because romanced Isabela more, and didn't end the romance on the night?
#15475
Posté 22 septembre 2011 - 08:42
DrFumb1ezX
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PseudoEthnic wrote...
How did you romance Isabela "more?" Did you propose having a relationship with her, did you leave it as a one night stand? Also, is Merrill's friendship meter above 50? If not, that's proably the problem.TMA LIVE wrote...
Debating if I should jump to Merrill's friendship romance with my Rogue. Been going to Isabela route, but know feeling like I should leap to Merrill.
However, despite hitting on her twice, and giving her the knife, the romance scene didn't happen. Is it because romanced Isabela more, and didn't end the romance on the night?
That damn meter is always the problem. If it's not 50+, the scene will not trigger. Regardless of which side.
