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[jlb524]

Ryzaki wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

Merrill has plenty of spine and it shows up independent of the romance and Hawke.

Never said it didn't. 

Just that the romance scene where she threw Hawke out brought my attention to it. 

Yeah, that's the only part I like about the rival romance.

[bleetman]

Ryzaki wrote...

And Merrill's rivalrymance is still growing on me. I have to admit I like how she refuses to back down from Hawke. It's awesome.

It's somewhat undermined by the "you were right all along" conclusion, sadly.

No Merrill, Hawke wasn't right all along. Just wrong in a different way.

Modifié par bleetman, 06 novembre 2011 - 07:48 .

[DoNotIngest]

bleetman wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

And Merrill's rivalrymance is still growing on me. I have to admit I like how she refuses to back down from Hawke. It's awesome.

It's somewhat undermined by the "you were right all along" conclusion, sadly.

No Merrill, Hawke wasn't right all along. Just wrong in a different way.

Too bad the Rivalmance won't end if you pick the wrong reply and Merrill says "Screw you" and continues with the Mirror.




And bleetman, I was trying to figure out who that was in your portrait, and thought it might have been Anders, what with the magic and feathered shoulders and such. Then I realized it was Anders riding an ****.


Just thought I'd share that thought.

Modifié par DoNotIngest, 06 novembre 2011 - 08:00 .

[Ryzaki]

bleetman wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

And Merrill's rivalrymance is still growing on me. I have to admit I like how she refuses to back down from Hawke. It's awesome.

It's somewhat undermined by the "you were right all along" conclusion, sadly.

No Merrill, Hawke wasn't right all along. Just wrong in a different way.

I found it fine even wth the you were right all along tidbit. I do wish there was more of a neutral ground though. Merrill wasn't completely right or wrong (and neither was Hawke). I do have to admit a fondness for it though by having both Merrill and Hawke be the only ones left in their families. (well except Gamlen...but eh). 

That said the whole "just go along with it." bit of the friendship path bugged me too much to complete it. But of course YMMV and that's why the devs gave us a choice.  

I wish my Hawke could say (and stay in a romance) that he doesn't mind her repairing the mirror his only issue is with her doing such in the middle of a alienage when she doesn't know if it can backfire (because if worse situation comes to pass and she gets possessed or the mirror blows up or does far more damage than to just her there's no templars or Hawke or anyone right outside her door to put an end to it before she starts damaging the people around her)  while she maybe prepared for the consequences she has no right to make that decision for other people. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 06 novembre 2011 - 08:15 .

[congealeddgtllvr]

Ryzaki wrote...

I wish my Hawke could say (and stay in a romance) that he doesn't mind her repairing the mirror his only issue is with her doing such in the middle of a alienage when she doesn't know if it can backfire (because if worse situation comes to pass and she gets possessed or the mirror blows up or does far more damage than to just her there's no templars or Hawke or anyone right outside her door to put an end to it before she starts damaging the people around her)  while she maybe prepared for the consequences she has no right to make that decision for other people. 

I mean that's the most rational position and it's probably the attitude I'd take if I were doing a "self-insert" character, but I kind of like that they kick you out of the romance if you say that.  It makes it so that the reason Merrill falls for a rival Hawke (rather than just never speaking to him again) is because she feels like he's trying to "save her," which helps to make the romance between such "opposites" more believable, imo.  

I agree that the friendship path has too much of a "sure whatever you want babe can I just get in your pants now" vibe for me to be comfortable with it.  That is just my feelings about it, though.  

[Ryzaki]

congealeddgtllvr wrote...
I mean that's the most rational position and it's probably the attitude I'd take if I were doing a "self-insert" character, but I kind of like that they kick you out of the romance if you say that.  It makes it so that the reason Merrill falls for a rival Hawke (rather than just never speaking to him again) is because she feels like he's trying to "save her," which helps to make the romance between such "opposites" more believable, imo.  

I agree that the friendship path has too much of a "sure whatever you want babe can I just get in your pants now" vibe for me to be comfortable with it.  That is just my feelings about it, though.  

Now that I look at it like that it does make a lot more sense. And does help that my Hawke and Merrill are complete opposites (he's a rogue, not pro mage freedom and has a very aggressive personality [though not so much that he's a douchenozzle to those close to him]) Still I do want my neutral option. 

And yeah agreed about the friendship path. It is a YMMV situation though. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 06 novembre 2011 - 09:31 .

[Xilizhra]

I agree that the friendship path has too much of a "sure whatever you want babe can I just get in your pants now" vibe for me to be comfortable with it. That is just my feelings about it, though.

There are ways to avoid it without going as... far as the rivalry "romance."

[jlb524]

congealeddgtllvr wrote... 
I agree that the friendship path has too much of a "sure whatever you want babe can I just get in your pants now" vibe for me to be comfortable with it.  That is just my feelings about it, though.  

I guess ite depends on what bias you take into the relationship.

My Hawke certainly doesn't think her interactions with Merrill are some type of game with the goal of getting into her pants at the end.

[congealeddgtllvr]

jlb524 wrote...

I guess ite depends on what bias you take into the relationship.

My Hawke certainly doesn't think her interactions with Merrill are some type of game with the goal of getting into her pants at the end.

I know.  Your Hawke could just genuinely not have any doubts about what she is doing and not be worried about the people in Lowtown.  My Hawke didn't feel this way though, and since he'd already been flirting with her previously, handing her the knife felt like a "conflict of interest."  

[Xilizhra]

Define "not worried." My own Hawke doesn't believe that they're in any particular danger.

[jlb524]

congealeddgtllvr wrote...
I know.  Your Hawke could just genuinely not have any doubts about what she is doing and not be worried about the people in Lowtown.  My Hawke didn't feel this way though, and since he'd already been flirting with her previously, handing her the knife felt like a "conflict of interest."  

I'm curious if you'd withhold the knife if you knew it would kill any romance chance with her.

[Ryzaki]

jlb524 wrote...

congealeddgtllvr wrote...
I know.  Your Hawke could just genuinely not have any doubts about what she is doing and not be worried about the people in Lowtown.  My Hawke didn't feel this way though, and since he'd already been flirting with her previously, handing her the knife felt like a "conflict of interest."  

I'm curious if you'd withhold the knife if you knew it would kill any romance chance with her.

I know this isn't directed at me but as a fellow rivalmancer...yeah I would. 

I would like it though if it was like betraying Anders in the fade and if you explained it in a way that she could at least see where Hawke was coming from (ala I have no problems with you taking risks but doing it in the middle of the alienage is not an acceptable risk because it involves far more than just her) she *might* take him back. But either way the only way she'd get that knife from my Hawkes is if she fought him over it (ala over his dead body) or stole it. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 06 novembre 2011 - 10:54 .

[Xilizhra]

But either way only way she'd get that knife from my Hawkes is if she fought him over it or stole it.

You already stole it. It's Merrill's, by all rights.

[congealeddgtllvr]

Xilizhra wrote...

Define "not worried." My own Hawke doesn't believe that they're in any particular danger.

At the end of the day, he wouldn't want any mage, be it the first enchanter of Val Royeaux's circle or the cleverest Tevinter Magister taking those kind of risks.  He would if there were Templars (magic resistant warriors generally, not "Kirkwall's finest") around to regulate.  But there aren't.  He considers Bethany the smartest, most competent mage he knows, and he trusts her 100%, and he wouldn't want her doing it.  So, it doesn't even need to be anything about Merrill specifically.  

Modifié par congealeddgtllvr, 06 novembre 2011 - 11:11 .

[Ryzaki]

Xilizhra wrote...

But either way only way she'd get that knife from my Hawkes is if she fought him over it or stole it.

You already stole it. It's Merrill's, by all rights.

Last I checked the Keeper gave it to Hawke. He didn't steal anything. 

[Xilizhra]

congealeddgtllvr wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Define "not worried." My own Hawke doesn't believe that they're in any particular danger.

At the end of the day, he wouldn't want any mage, be it the first enchanter of Val Royeaux's circle or the cleverest Tevinter Magister taking those kind of risks.  He would if there were Templars (magic resistant warriors generally, not "Kirkwall's finest") around to regulate.  But there aren't.  He considers Bethany the smartest, most competent mage he knows, and he trusts her 100%, and he wouldn't want her doing it.  So, it doesn't even need to be anything about Merrill specifically.  

My mage accepts that she knows zilch about the Eluvian, and Marethari doesn't seem to know anything more. She'll remain on standby, watching the Alienage closely, but certainly won't interfere with Merrill. My rogue... well, is pretty much the same, except that she accepts not knowing anything about magic, period, and not feeling that she has a right to adjudicate matters of magical dispute.

Last I checked the Keeper gave it to Hawke. He didn't steal anything.

The way Dalish law works is that it belongs to Merrill. Saying it was all right because Marethari gave it to Hawke is like saying that if the President does it, it's not illegal. Marethari broke her own laws and Hawke is, in this case, a party to it.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 06 novembre 2011 - 10:56 .

[Ryzaki]

Xilizhra wrote...
The way Dalish law works is that it belongs to Merrill. Saying it was all right because Marethari gave it to Hawke is like saying that if the President does it, it's not illegal. Marethari broke her own laws and Hawke is, in this case, a party to it.

I'll recheck that quest but for now okay I'll defer to you. 

She's not getting it unless she takes it back then or agrees to use the Eluvian where there's not other people living in close quarters. She agrees to move the Eluvian into a cave or something where no one's nearby and work on it there and she's welcome to the knife. Hawke'll even help her out since he wants to see exactly what that thing does himself. But working on a magic mirror that spread the taint before she "cleansed" it (despite not even knowing how the thing really works) in the middle of a city? Uh...no. Is he being controlling? Probably but for me the reasonableness of the request would outweigh everything else. He's not teling her to stop but rather do it somewhere where if it backfires the damage won't be needlessly high. Hopefully at least.

That said Marethari and the clan should've moved on. One member of the clan does not outweigh the rest of the clan. Marethari staying to make sure Merrill was safe was a severe mistake. Sometimes you have to let people go and succeed or fail on their own.  

Modifié par Ryzaki, 06 novembre 2011 - 11:29 .

[congealeddgtllvr]

jlb524 wrote...
I'm curious if you'd withhold the knife if you knew it would kill any romance chance with her.

Of course I'd do it once to see how it played out.  I still would not be "comfortable" with it or like it any better than I do. That is the only point I'm making.  

Modifié par congealeddgtllvr, 06 novembre 2011 - 11:14 .

[Xilizhra]

Ryzaki wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
The way Dalish law works is that it belongs to Merrill. Saying it was all right because Marethari gave it to Hawke is like saying that if the President does it, it's not illegal. Marethari broke her own laws and Hawke is, in this case, a party to it.

I'll recheck that quest but for now okay I'll defer to you. 

She's not getting it unless she takes it back then or agrees to use the Eluvian where there's not other people living in close quarters. She agrees to move the Eluvian into a cave or something where no one's nearby and work on it there and she's welcome to the knife. 

I don't think that's logically feasible. There's never been a cave we've seen that hasn't been infested with monsters.

[jlb524]

I've always figured that the potential danger with the eluvian paled in comparison to the danger the average Alienage elf faced each day.

[Ryzaki]

@Xili: Merrill is not helpless or a child she can take out a few spiders/skeletons on her own. If necessary Hawke'll help her clear out the cave. She doesn't want to take that much risk for herself then she doesn't need to responsibility of trying to rebuild the eluvian. She certainly doesn't in his eyes (or mine) have any right to place a unnecessary risk (and no matter how much she insists how important elven history is it's not necessary for the CEs) for something on the CEs when she's unwilling to take another minor risk to herself especially not with the CEs not even being aware of said risk. They have enough potential crap to deal with as is they don't need more even if its as minor as making them sneeze more often. 

Channeled my CE warden there for a moment.  

That said this really is my view on the matter and YMMV. I believe everyone has every right to blow their head off if they want to whatever but the second you even *risk* collateral damage to a party that didn't ask for it I see it as "nope. Sorry try again next time. Or go somewhere else. Or do it another way." The right to swing your hand stops where my face begins bucko. No gov't it's not cool to "experiment" with a chemical where people live because you want to see if there's any risks. 

I feel strongly on that maner which is why I cannot friendship Merrill completely. Just can't do it. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 06 novembre 2011 - 11:46 .

[Xilizhra]

The fact that there was no option given means that there's a reason why Hawke wouldn't bring it up in-universe. It may take me a while to find this, but I will.

She doesn't want to take that much risk for herself then she doesn't need to responsibility of trying to rebuild the eluvian.

She's willing to die for it, so this clearly isn't the case. I suspect that the Eluvian in its current state is somewhat unstable; the only way it could be moved without breaking again is when it's finished, and who knows what the breaking might do to the Alienage? It would likely be safe by Act 3, but the problem there is a different one.

(and no matter how much she insists how important elven history is it's not necessary for the CEs)

It could be quite useful for breaking free of human dominance.

I've also noticed you've forgotten that Merrill was working on it for three years prior to revealing it to you, and absolutely nothing happened.

[Abispa]

jlb524 wrote...

congealeddgtllvr wrote... 
I agree that the friendship path has too much of a "sure whatever you want babe can I just get in your pants now" vibe for me to be comfortable with it.  That is just my feelings about it, though.  

I guess ite depends on what bias you take into the relationship.

My Hawke certainly doesn't think her interactions with Merrill are some type of game with the goal of getting into her pants at the end.

I made a Hawke that loved Merrill and he kept the woodworking knife BECAUSE he cared about her. It was my first playthrough and I had not read any info on the game so I ASSUMED that any shot at romance was ruined unless the game presented an opportunity for him to convince her she was wrong. Then I found out about rivalry romances when she showed up at Hawke's house after chewing him out at her place.

I can understand a player thinking that blood magic isn't automatically bad, but the game has shown that it is dangerous. Merrill says she understands the dangers, and snaps at Anders for being an abomination that criticizes her. That may prove that Anders was naive in his own dealings with the fade, but it doesn't strengthen her own argument that she isn't. And it takes all of two seconds for her to succumb to a Pride demon's offer in the Fade.

He's quite clear at what he's offering: Scion of the Dalish. Leader. Ruler. She then tells my Hawke that she can't put his needs over her people's needs. The Dalish NEED Merrill to lead them in her mind? In the six years she spends in Kirkwall it isn't until near the end that Hawke can point out that she just keeps to herself and hasn't done anything to help any of the Elves in the Alienage, unless Hawke was on a mission than helped them.

So what was she thinking? She'll reveal this awesome working magic mirror to the Elves and they'll fall to their knees, thank her, and promise to listen to anything she has to tell them now that she's no longer locking herself up in her hovel? Or is she thinking that she'll have the power she needs to LEAD them all, Scion of the Dalish; benevolently, of course. Not surprisingly to me, we find out that the demon that had been guiding her in her efforts to fix the mirror was also a Pride demon.

I can understand thinking that Marathari is wrong or too protective (even though I disagree), but I'm always confused by Merrill supporters who act as though her not supporting Merrill's mirror repair is her being mean. Even my blood mage Hawke who supported Merrill never had any reason to believe that Marathari had anything but love and concern for Merrill guiding her actions.

Also, from my own woodworking experience, let me tell you that is is REALLY easy to seriously wound yourself using antique woodworking tools. I'm sure Merrill would be using some kind of magic during the repairs on the mirror, and if everything goes according to the Pride demon's suggestions, she'll also be using an ancient magical woodworking tool that could severely cut her. Just something to think about.

[Xilizhra]

I can understand a player thinking that blood magic isn't automatically bad, but the game has shown that it is dangerous.

No it hasn't. It's shown that many practitioners are, and Merrill has proven herself not to be. Blood magic itself is perfectly safe if you're mentally stable.

And it takes all of two seconds for her to succumb to a Pride demon's offer in the Fade.

Like everyone else except the person who's already possessed.

He's quite clear at what he's offering: Scion of the Dalish. Leader. Ruler. She then tells my Hawke that she can't put his needs over her people's needs. The Dalish NEED Merrill to lead them in her mind?

It's demonic mind control, of course it's going to sound stupid. Aveline was offered an impossible resurrection, Fenris was offered his own magical powers... none of it makes sense from the outside.

So what was she thinking? She'll reveal this awesome working magic mirror to the Elves and they'll fall to their knees, thank her, and promise to listen to anything she has to tell them now that she's no longer locking herself up in her hovel? Or is she thinking that she'll have the power she needs to LEAD them all, Scion of the Dalish; benevolently, of course. Not surprisingly to me, we find out that the demon that had been guiding her in her efforts to fix the mirror was also a Pride demon.

No.

I can understand thinking that Marathari is wrong or too protective (even though I disagree), but I'm always confused by Merrill supporters who act as though her not supporting Merrill's mirror repair is her being mean. Even my blood mage Hawke who supported Merrill never had any reason to believe that Marathari had anything but love and concern for Merrill guiding her actions.

Because Marethari is much more prideful than Merrill, and is in fact the person who became a pride abomination in the end. And while rivalling Merrill may be only mildly unpleasant itself, I see the rivalmance as pure emotional abuse, and the third worst thing you can do to a companion (second worst is breaking Anders into siding with the templars at the end, first worst is selling Fenris back).

Also, from my own woodworking experience, let me tell you that is is REALLY easy to seriously wound yourself using antique woodworking tools. I'm sure Merrill would be using some kind of magic during the repairs on the mirror, and if everything goes according to the Pride demon's suggestions, she'll also be using an ancient magical woodworking tool that could severely cut her. Just something to think about.

Not really.

[Ryzaki]

Xilizhra wrote...

The fact that there was no option given means that there's a reason why Hawke wouldn't bring it up in-universe. It may take me a while to find this, but I will.

She doesn't want to take that much risk for herself then she doesn't need to responsibility of trying to rebuild the eluvian.

She's willing to die for it, so this clearly isn't the case. I suspect that the Eluvian in its current state is somewhat unstable; the only way it could be moved without breaking again is when it's finished, and who knows what the breaking might do to the Alienage? It would likely be safe by Act 3, but the problem there is a different one.

(and no matter how much she insists how important elven history is it's not necessary for the CEs)

It could be quite useful for breaking free of human dominance.

I've also noticed you've forgotten that Merrill was working on it for three years prior to revealing it to you, and absolutely nothing happened.

If she could move it into the alienage she can move it out. 

And? She also didn't have the knife 3 years ago. That means little other than it having done nothing yet. And this'll go in a circle jerk so I'll have to agree to disagree.