17177 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

If she could move it into the alienage she can move it out.

She built it in the Alienage.

And? She also didn't have the knife 3 years ago. That means little other than it having done nothing yet. And this'll go in a circle jerk so I'll have to agree to disagree.

She needed the arulin'holm to finish it, not start it.

[Ryzaki]

Xilizhra wrote...

If she could move it into the alienage she can move it out.

She built it in the Alienage.

She did? Right that just makes the alarm bells even louder. 

And? She also didn't have the knife 3 years ago. That means little other than it having done nothing yet. And this'll go in a circle jerk so I'll have to agree to disagree.

She needed the arulin'holm to finish it, not start it.

Not really considering Act 3. She *thinks* she needs the knife to finish it. 

Regardless like I said I'll agree to disagree. 

[Xilizhra]

She did? Right that just makes the alarm bells even louder.

I'm unsure of the mechanics of this, in all honesty. She had the shard before leaving, I know that, although to be honest, I haven't the faintest idea why you'd think Merrill would do this in the Alienage if she believed at all that it could be a threat. And no Hawke knows as much as she does about it; nor does Marethari, who never even brings that up as a danger.

[Ryzaki]

Xilizhra wrote...

She did? Right that just makes the alarm bells even louder.

I'm unsure of the mechanics of this, in all honesty. She had the shard before leaving, I know that, although to be honest, I haven't the faintest idea why you'd think Merrill would do this in the Alienage if she believed at all that it could be a threat. And no Hawke knows as much as she does about it; nor does Marethari, who never even brings that up as a danger.

Because Merrill doesn't know everything about the Mirror. She doesn't have to think it's a threat for it to be one. She's not all knowing. (and no I'm not saying Hawke is before anyone pounces on that). She's under the guide of a demon to rebuild the thing for pete's sake. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 07 novembre 2011 - 12:11 .

[Ryzaki]

Abispa wrote...
I made a Hawke that loved Merrill and he kept the woodworking knife BECAUSE he cared about her. It was my first playthrough and I had not read any info on the game so I ASSUMED that any shot at romance was ruined unless the game presented an opportunity for him to convince her she was wrong. Then I found out about rivalry romances when she showed up at Hawke's house after chewing him out at her place.

I can understand a player thinking that blood magic isn't automatically bad, but the game has shown that it is dangerous. Merrill says she understands the dangers, and snaps at Anders for being an abomination that criticizes her. That may prove that Anders was naive in his own dealings with the fade, but it doesn't strengthen her own argument that she isn't. And it takes all of two seconds for her to succumb to a Pride demon's offer in the Fade.

He's quite clear at what he's offering: Scion of the Dalish. Leader. Ruler. She then tells my Hawke that she can't put his needs over her people's needs. The Dalish NEED Merrill to lead them in her mind? In the six years she spends in Kirkwall it isn't until near the end that Hawke can point out that she just keeps to herself and hasn't done anything to help any of the Elves in the Alienage, unless Hawke was on a mission than helped them.

So what was she thinking? She'll reveal this awesome working magic mirror to the Elves and they'll fall to their knees, thank her, and promise to listen to anything she has to tell them now that she's no longer locking herself up in her hovel? Or is she thinking that she'll have the power she needs to LEAD them all, Scion of the Dalish; benevolently, of course. Not surprisingly to me, we find out that the demon that had been guiding her in her efforts to fix the mirror was also a Pride demon.

I can understand thinking that Marathari is wrong or too protective (even though I disagree), but I'm always confused by Merrill supporters who act as though her not supporting Merrill's mirror repair is her being mean. Even my blood mage Hawke who supported Merrill never had any reason to believe that Marathari had anything but love and concern for Merrill guiding her actions.

Also, from my own woodworking experience, let me tell you that is is REALLY easy to seriously wound yourself using antique woodworking tools. I'm sure Merrill would be using some kind of magic during the repairs on the mirror, and if everything goes according to the Pride demon's suggestions, she'll also be using an ancient magical woodworking tool that could severely cut her. Just something to think about.

And really I have to wonder what she was planning on doing with the mirror as well. How exactly was that supposed to save her people? Fenris whole point on dwelling on useless history resonated with me unless that mirror had some magical healing supplies, or treatements or how to remove a demon from someone without killing them or a weapon how was it supposed to help? I mean sure history is a great thing to know but unless knowledge of said history would have a severe effect on the future it's not helping anyone. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 07 novembre 2011 - 12:16 .

[Abispa]

@ Xilizhra -- In all my times in the Fade neither Aveline nor Garrus betrayed me, though I understand they will if the game needs someone to turn on you at the the Pride demon stage. Kind of artificial, but I have to admit that it is a possibility. However, I thank you for pointing out that Merrill, who professed to being experienced and careful in her dealing with spirits, demonstrates that she has no more mental discipline than a lusty pirate and a former slave with anger management issues, and LESS mental discipline than a dwarf with NO fade experience and a guard captain who is clearly uneasy with the supernatural.

[Xilizhra]

The demon taught her blood magic to cleanse the Eluvian, primarily. The building, she did largely by herself, and I'm certain that the Eluvian was a red herring; initially it was only to serve as a means to ensnare Merrill through pride, but as Merrill was too selfless for that to work, Audacity figured that the blood magic turning Merrill into a pariah was a decent hook into Marethari. And it was much more successful in that regard.

[Xilizhra]

In all my times in the Fade neither Aveline

So you always brought Isabela?

nor Garrus betrayed me

Wat

However, I thank you for pointing out that Merrill, who professed to being experienced and careful in her dealing with spirits, demonstrates that she has no more mental discipline than a lusty pirate and a former slave with anger management issues, and LESS mental discipline than a dwarf with NO fade experience and a guard captain who is clearly uneasy with the supernatural.

That's utterly imbecilic for two reasons. For one thing, both Varric and Aveline can still fall. For another, Marethari (hah) specifically states that no one can resist a demon's offer under these circumstances. It's a Fade realm created by multiple demons from a very powerful mage; Wryme and Caress are at the apex of their power here, and it's pitifully easy for them to ensnare anyone... other than the one they want to kill (Hawke) and the one already being driven by a spirit (Anders).

[Ryzaki]

Abispa wrote...

@ Xilizhra -- In all my times in the Fade neither Aveline nor Garrus betrayed me, though I understand they will if the game needs someone to turn on you at the the Pride demon stage. Kind of artificial, but I have to admit that it is a possibility. However, I thank you for pointing out that Merrill, who professed to being experienced and careful in her dealing with spirits, demonstrates that she has no more mental discipline than a lusty pirate and a former slave with anger management issues, and LESS mental discipline than a dwarf with NO fade experience and a guard captain who is clearly uneasy with the supernatural.

Wait...Garrus was in DA2?    

And doesn't pride take her over Fenris? I mean obviously demons aim for the best target. Desire can't ensnare her or Fenris or Varric and Pride can't ensnare Isabela or Aveline (which is odd you'd think Aveline would be suspectable to both but whatevs) 

As for no one can resist a demon in that realm *looks at DAO* I miss when my companions weren't backstabbing bastards (at least in the Fade) and could have sense talked into them.  Sten! Morrigan! Come back to me! 

I mean christ even Alistair's ditzy self could realize wtf was going on. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 07 novembre 2011 - 12:21 .

[congealeddgtllvr]

Xilizhra wrote...

nor Garrus betrayed me

Wat

Garrus only betrays you if you haven't done his loyalty mission.  

[Xilizhra]

Sten! Morrigan! Come back to me!

That demon was trying to run a whole huge Fade realm by itself, under its own power. The demons in DA2 had much greater advantages (and were of more advanced types to boot).

[jlb524]

Merrill built the eluvian from scratch using the shard she cleansed plus whatever lore she could gather up in those three years...so says Gaider.

[Ryzaki]

Xilizhra wrote...

Sten! Morrigan! Come back to me!

That demon was trying to run a whole huge Fade realm by itself, under its own power. The demons in DA2 had much greater advantages (and were of more advanced types to boot).

I really doubt said demon could've convinced Sten and Morrigan regardless. Now Alistair, Leliana, Wynne and Zev would've fallen under it's sway. But Sten and Morrigan? Morrigan's too tricky and Sten's...Qunari. I have a feeling it's really hard for a demon to tempt a qunari. 

Though the demons in DA2 did have greater advantages. They didn't have to worry about their prey having something they can't offer them. Demon couldn't give Morrigan OBG and I doubt Sten (with how OMG NOOOO) Qunari are about demons would've accepted it trying to give him his sword back. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 07 novembre 2011 - 12:30 .

[Ryzaki]

congealeddgtllvr wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

nor Garrus betrayed me

Wat

Garrus only betrays you if you haven't done his loyalty mission.  

Wrong game. 

...And Garrus never betrays Shepard. He's a bro like that. 

[Xilizhra]

I really doubt said demon could've convinced Sten and Morrigan regardless. Now Alistair, Morrigan, Wynne and Zev would've fallen under it's sway. But Sten and Morrigan? Morrigan's too tricky and Sten's...Qunari. I have a feeling it's really hard for a demon to tempt a qunari.

Sten was under its sway. He recognized the truth of the Fade, but didn't care because it was a good dream. And qunari are no harder than anyone else to tempt; arguably, since their purposes are so rigid, it'd be easier. A pride demon could influence a qunari's pride in the Qun, for instance, to offer greater power to add to the Qun's glory.
Morrigan, I'm less sure about, but her dream was highly sloppy. I think the demon was slipping there.

Though the demons in DA2 did have greater advantages. They didn't have to worry about their prey having something they can't offer them.

All sloth demons can offer is rest. Desire and pride demons have many more options.

[Abispa]

Xilizhra wrote...

In all my times in the Fade neither Aveline

So you always brought Isabela?

nor Garrus betrayed me

Wat

Sorry, I meant "Varric." I've been doing time on some ME threads this weekend. -- Abispa

However, I thank you for pointing out that Merrill, who professed to being experienced and careful in her dealing with spirits, demonstrates that she has no more mental discipline than a lusty pirate and a former slave with anger management issues, and LESS mental discipline than a dwarf with NO fade experience and a guard captain who is clearly uneasy with the supernatural.

That's utterly imbecilic for two reasons. For one thing, both Varric and Aveline can still fall.

But not always. Isabela, MERRILL and Fenris always do in my play throughs. But I guess I'm an imbecile for drawing conclusions other than those YOU'VE drawn. -- Abispa.

For another, Marethari (hah) specifically states that no one can resist a demon's offer under these circumstances. It's a Fade realm created by multiple demons from a very powerful mage; Wryme and Caress are at the apex of their power here, and it's pitifully easy for them to ensnare anyone... other than the one they want to kill (Hawke) and the one already being driven by a spirit (Anders).

Happy to see that my misspelling brings you joy. Let me guess, you play with subtitles.

[Ryzaki]

Xilizhra wrote..
Sten was under its sway. He recognized the truth of the Fade, but didn't care because it was a good dream. And qunari are no harder than anyone else to tempt; arguably, since their purposes are so rigid, it'd be easier. A pride demon could influence a qunari's pride in the Qun, for instance, to offer greater power to add to the Qun's glory.
Morrigan, I'm less sure about, but her dream was highly sloppy. I think the demon was slipping there.

Uh no Sten was not under it's sway. He just stayed because he was tired. He knew it was fake, he knew he couldn't find peace there. And I highly disagree about Qunari given their attitudes on magic and demons to start with. 

As for Morrigan like I said too damn tricky.

All sloth demons can offer is rest. Desire and pride demons have many more options

Not enough that they can offer something to party members who fall prey to the opposite. And too dumb to try to tempt Hawke arguably the most powerful one there (at least the sloth demon was smart enough to *try*). I could see trying with Hawke and then after failing they go to another choice. But nope. 

And biting off companions heads after their betrayal is the best part of that quest. Jerkwads all of them. With friends like that who needs enemies. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 07 novembre 2011 - 12:34 .

[Abispa]

congealeddgtllvr wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

nor Garrus betrayed me

Wat

Garrus only betrays you if you haven't done his loyalty mission.  

The best part is that on MY game-save, Garrus is the father of Morrigan's baby.

[Ryzaki]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Sten! Morrigan! Come back to me!

That demon was trying to run a whole huge Fade realm by itself, under its own power. The demons in DA2 had much greater advantages (and were of more advanced types to boot).

I really doubt said demon could've convinced Sten and Morrigan regardless. Now Alistair, Morrigan, Wynne and Zev would've fallen under it's sway. But Sten and Morrigan? Morrigan's too tricky and Sten's...Qunari. I have a feeling it's really hard for a demon to tempt a qunari. 

Though the demons in DA2 did have greater advantages. They didn't have to worry about their prey having something they can't offer them. 

You just mentioned Morrigan in both groups. Is she simultaneously falling under a demon's sway while also managing to resist it?

Nah I made a mistake. 

Morrigan doesn't believe it for a moment. 

[jlb524]

Abispa wrote...
He's quite clear at what he's offering: Scion of the Dalish. Leader. Ruler. She then tells my Hawke that she can't put his needs over her people's needs. The Dalish NEED Merrill to lead them in her mind? In the six years she spends in Kirkwall it isn't until near the end that Hawke can point out that she just keeps to herself and hasn't done anything to help any of the Elves in the Alienage, unless Hawke was on a mission than helped them.

It's hard to say what was going on in her mind given the context and that the demon forced her to believe this.

Abispa wrote...
So what was she thinking? She'll reveal this awesome working magic mirror to the Elves and they'll fall to their knees, thank her, and promise to listen to anything she has to tell them now that she's no longer locking herself up in her hovel? Or is she thinking that she'll have the power she needs to LEAD them all, Scion of the Dalish; benevolently, of course. Not surprisingly to me, we find out that the demon that had been guiding her in her efforts to fix the mirror was also a Pride demon.

I was never under the impression that Merrill wanted to lead anyone or wanted power.  She simply wanted to help elven-kind restore their history the only way she knew how.  She even said she'd make a terrible Keeper.

Perhaps the idea of being loved like that is appealing to someone like Merrill, who was shunned for her entire life, which is the kind of feelings the demon would prey on...however, I don't think Merrill seriously wanted anything like that...it would be more of a fantasy. 

Abispa wrote...
I can understand thinking that Marathari is wrong or too protective (even though I disagree), but I'm always confused by Merrill supporters who act as though her not supporting Merrill's mirror repair is her being mean. 

Nah, most just think she's stupid and shortsighted.

Abispa wrote...
Also, from my own woodworking experience, let me tell you that is is REALLY easy to seriously wound yourself using antique woodworking tools. I'm sure Merrill would be using some kind of magic during the repairs on the mirror, and if everything goes according to the Pride demon's suggestions, she'll also be using an ancient magical woodworking tool that could severely cut her. Just something to think about.

Eh?

Modifié par jlb524, 07 novembre 2011 - 12:32 .

[Xilizhra]

But not always. Isabela, MERRILL and Fenris always do in my play throughs. But I guess I'm an imbecile for drawing conclusions other than those YOU'VE drawn. -- Abispa.

All right, apparently you don't know how the Fade temptations work. They go in a very specific and arbitrary order, presumably to make thing easier on the developers/players.
Wryme will tempt Merrill if she's in the party. If she isn't, it'll tempt Fenris. If neither elf is in the party, it'll tempt Varric.
Caress will tempt Isabela, and if she's not in the party, will tempt Aveline.
No demon will tempt more than one companion, regardless of how many fall under their purview. I believe that only exists to ensure that your whole party won't try to kill you; in any case, the demons can probably only hold one illusion at a time.

Uh no Sten was not under it's sway. He just stayed because he was tired. He knew it was fake, he knew he couldn't find peace there. And I highly disagree about Qunari given their attitudes on magic and demons to start with.

He specifically said it was a good dream.

As for Morrigan like I said too damn tricky.

Not really. I can think of a few things a desire/pride demon could offer, given enough power.

Not enough that they can offer something to party members who fall prey to the opposite. And too dumb to try to tempt Hawke arguably the most powerful one there (at least the sloth demon was smart enough to *try*)

The demons specifically want to kill Hawke for screwing with their plans for Fenyriel, and to twist the knife by inducing betrayals.

[Ryzaki]

Xilizhra wrote...

But not always. Isabela, MERRILL and Fenris always do in my play throughs. But I guess I'm an imbecile for drawing conclusions other than those YOU'VE drawn. -- Abispa.

All right, apparently you don't know how the Fade temptations work. They go in a very specific and arbitrary order, presumably to make thing easier on the developers/players.
Wryme will tempt Merrill if she's in the party. If she isn't, it'll tempt Fenris. If neither elf is in the party, it'll tempt Varric.
Caress will tempt Isabela, and if she's not in the party, will tempt Aveline.
No demon will tempt more than one companion, regardless of how many fall under their purview. I believe that only exists to ensure that your whole party won't try to kill you; in any case, the demons can probably only hold one illusion at a time.

I'm well aware of how the temptations work thanks for the presumption Xili. 

He specifically said it was a good dream.

Last i checked people were well aware dreams weren't real. Just temporary. Compared to everyone else (save Morrigan) who thinks it's you know...real. 

And ugh why did I uninstall the toolset. I can't even check. 

Not really. I can think of a few things a desire/pride demon could offer, given enough power. 

Morrigan was trained by Flemeth. You really think she won't see through a demon's lies? 

The demons specifically want to kill Hawke for screwing with their plans for Fenyriel, and to twist the knife by inducing betrayals.

which makes them idiots and deserving of their deaths since they didn't have enough brainpower to realize Hawke could defeat both the ensnared teammate and them. 

And I will never understand why the diplomatic  choice gets far more rivalry than the aggressive choice when Merrill betrays Hawke. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 07 novembre 2011 - 12:40 .

[Abispa]

jlb524 wrote...

Abispa wrote...

Also, from my own woodworking experience, let me tell you that is is REALLY easy to seriously wound yourself using antique woodworking tools. I'm sure Merrill would be using some kind of magic during the repairs on the mirror, and if everything goes according to the Pride demon's suggestions, she'll also be using an ancient magical woodworking tool that could severely cut her. Just something to think about.

Eh?

Just drawing a conclusion from a chat between Anders and Merrill. He suggests that it is possible for a mage to accidentally cut herself, draw the attention of demons and realize the power of blood magic even is she weren't a blood mage. Granted, I am not a scholar of all the nuances of blood magic in DA, but it seems to me that if even an innocent cut on a mage can trigger a blood magic event, then Merrill conducting some kind of magical repairs on a powerful artifact with a tool she can cut herself with could be even more dangerous.

I could be wrong, I admit, but I'd never accuse anyone of being an imbecile for disagreeing with me.