17177 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

jlb524 wrote...
This is why I think Morrigan isn't all that different from Merrill.  The both are learning things from questionable sources.  I just hate the whole 'Merrill is stoopid and Morrigan is soo smart!' attitude that I see around the good ole forums (I mean genrally...I'm not saying from you specifically).  I think they both realize that the magic they are doing could be dangerous but think the risk is worth it.

My issue is Merrill's supposed to be all "omg she's sweet and she cares about other people!" so her taking the same risks with other people's lives doesn't really vibe well. Oh she cares so much about innocent lives that she's willing to take the risk that she'd turn into an abomination (and she was always aware of this risk given what she says to Hawke when she asks him to come with her to see that demon) in the middle of a crowded city? She'll build something that spread the taint because a demon said it'll be okay she cleansed it with bloodmagic in the middle of said city? She's not the least concerned that "Hey...maybe if this backfires even though *I'm* fully prepared for it it'll cause something to happen that'll hurt others. Maybe I should do this somewhere else?" Either she thinks she's strong enough to handle any situation that'll occur, nothing at all bad will happen or she doesn't give a damn if it backfires. Someone who is self absorbed I can buy doing that but someone who supposedly gives a damn about others? And Flemeth to me is a lot more trustworthy than a demon. A demon almost always has two goals. Possess and escape. Flemeth? No clue. But chances are she doesn't need your body and your power is so inferior to hers it's a joke. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 07 novembre 2011 - 01:19 .

[jlb524]

Abispa wrote...

Whether Morrigan will always be "straight" is up to the writers. One could make the case that she just needed the male Warden's seed for a baby. She had to seduce the male Hero, or in the case of a female Hero, she didn't want the complications of upsetting a female lover with her needing to be impregnated by Alistair. So she COULD be "gay" or "bi" in a future game. I could never picture Loghain going along with the Dark Ritual, so he just died.

As long as my modded romance with her imports...I'm happy.

Actually, it might be a miracle if the non-modded romance imports correctly 

[Xilizhra]

Oh she cares so much about innocent lives that she's willing to take the risk that she'd turn into an abomination (and she was always aware of this risk given what she says to Hawke when she asks him to come with her to see that demon) in the middle of a crowded city?

She was going all the way to Pride's End. Note too that that's the only time she called Hawke for assistance; if she could have become an abomination in the Alienage, she'd have asked Hawke before then.

She'll build something that spread the taint because a demon said it'll be okay she cleansed it with bloodmagic in the middle of said city?

Anders ensures it isn't tainted.

She's not the least concerned that "Hey...maybe if this backfires even though *I'm* fully prepared for it it'll cause something to happen that'll hurt others. Maybe I should do this somewhere else?"

She's already thought about it. Aveline asks her point-blank if the Eluvian is dangerous to the people of Kirkwall and Merrill is fairly adamant that it isn't.

[Ryzaki]

Xilizhra wrote...

She was going all the way to Pride's End. Note too that that's the only time she called Hawke for assistance; if she could have become an abomination in the Alienage, she'd have asked Hawke before then.

If she was *aware*. If that mirror actually became a portal to the demon I'm not sure she would've known until it was far too late. 

Anders ensures it isn't tainted.

And Anders isn't always in the party to make that assurance. Not to mention when does he assure it's not tainted? 

She's already thought about it. Aveline asks her point-blank if the Eluvian is dangerous to the people of Kirkwall and Merrill is fairly adamant that it isn't.

Right when she doesn't even know what the mirror does other than "communication". Excuse me if I take that with a grain of salt. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 07 novembre 2011 - 01:28 .

[jlb524]

Ryzaki wrote...
My issue is Merrill's supposed to be all "omg she's sweet and she cares about other people!" so her taking the same risks with other people's lives doesn't really vibe well.

Well, I think believing that sells her character short.  She's more than just the 'super sweet nice virginal LI' which is why I actually like her so much.  Initially, when they announced her character, that's all I thought she'd be and my opinion of her was 'meh'.    

Not that she's not capable of sweetness or caring but she's not perfect.

Ryzaki wrote...
Oh she cares so much about innocent lives that she's willing to take the risk that she'd turn into an abomination (and she was always aware of this risk given what she says to Hawke when she asks him to come with her to see that demon) in the middle of a crowded city? She'll build something that spread the taint because a demon said it'll be okay she cleansed it with bloodmagic in the middle of said city? She's not the least concerned that "Hey...maybe if this backfires even though *I'm* fully prepared for it it'll cause something to happen that'll hurt others. Maybe I should do this somewhere else?" Either she thinks she's strong enough to handle any situation that'll occur, nothing at all bad will happen or she doesn't give a damn if it backfires. Someone who is self absorbed I can buy doing that but someone who supposedly gives a damn about others?

But why does it have to be that black and white?  If one does anything that could possibly put others in danger, are they self-absorbed?  

And Flemeth to me is a lot more trustworthy than a demon. A demon almost always has two goals. Possess and escape. Flemeth? No clue. But chances are she doesn't need your body and your power is so inferior to hers it's a joke. 

Flemeth's too much of an unknown for me to say that...we know a lot more about demons.

Ryzaki wrote...
Right when she doesn't even know what the mirror does other than "communication". Excuse me if I take that with a grain of salt. 

That's at least all she tells Hawke.  She's studied these things for three years, though.  She may know more or not.  

Modifié par jlb524, 07 novembre 2011 - 01:31 .

[Xilizhra]

If she was *aware*. If that mirror actually became a portal to the demon I'm not sure she would've known until it was far too late.

Assuming that can even happen, which I very much doubt.

And Anders isn't always in the party to make that assurance.

It only matters to justify my own decision.

Right when she doesn't even know what the mirror does other than "communication". Excuse me if I take that with a grain of salt.

It's not difficult to know more about what a think won't do than what it will. It's possible to tell that a car engine won't spontaneously combust with no stimulation without knowing how precisely it works.

[Ryzaki]

Xilizhra wrote...

Assuming that can even happen, which I very much doubt.

And which I very much see happening. 

It only matters to justify my own decision.

And then Anders not saying such justifies my own. (If we're speaking strictly IC)

It's not difficult to know more about what a think won't do than what it will. It's possible to tell that a car engine won't spontaneously combust with no stimulation without knowing how precisely it works.

If that Car Engine had been rebuilt and it's original form spread the taint? Yeah I would be a hell of a lot leery of it. But again circlejerk. 

jlb524 wrote...
Well, I think believing that sells her character short.  She's more than just the 'super sweet nice virginal LI' which is why I actually like her so much.  Initially, when they announced her character, that's all I thought she'd be and my opinion of her was 'meh'.

She's more than that sure. That doesn't mean part of her character isn't about not wanting people hurt. 

Not that she's not capable of sweetness or caring but she's not perfect.

Would never even *dream* of saying she was perfect. Everyone in DA2 has their screwed up ness. It makes them charming. 

But why does it have to be that black and white?  If one does anything that could possibly put others in danger, are they self-absorbed?

Not necessarily. When it's not necessary and they priortize their safety over others? (with that "why don't you just leave." "a lone elf is easy prey for anyone." Oh so that makes potentially putting others in danger okay then?  And I'm well aware it's harsh and ridculous but it's how I see it. I'm no compromise on personal safety rights. I'm still baffled that Hawke can't turn Merrill and Anders over to the templars. There's no/little reason not to unless they're friends/lovers which all Hawkes aren't. Especially if Hawke's not a mage and once Beth's in the circle/wardens/dead. 

Flemeth's too much of an unknown for me to say that...we know a lot more about demons.

Two games and she has yet to blow anything up and she's saves the PC from certain death Ithink she's good.  Not good good at best maybe chaotic neutral but I don't see her being a big bad. Either that or running the longest con ever. 
Or just bored. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 07 novembre 2011 - 01:40 .

[jlb524]

Well, Merrill believes what she's doing is necessary and could do more good in the long term. You may not agree of course, but there it is.

Also, Flemeth's going to blow up Orlais in DA3.

[Ryzaki]

jlb524 wrote...

Well, Merrill believes what she's doing is necessary and could do more good in the long term. You may not agree of course, but there it is.

Also, Flemeth's going to blow up Orlais in DA3.

There's no proof it's necessary though in anything but her head. The whole thing is just weird as far as my Hawke's concerned. He shares Fenris' "It's not *my* history it's simply history." sentiment 

Oh yes. I hope she goes for Tevinter next.  Blowing up all the tryants country by country. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 07 novembre 2011 - 01:52 .

[Sealy]

Right now my only prob with Merrill is that she often tell me that doing something is a bad idea, so I don't do it and I get rival points.

[jlb524]

Ryzaki wrote...
There's no proof it's necessary though in anything but her head. The whole thing is just weird as far as my Hawke's concerned. He shares Fenris' "It's not *my* history it's simply history." sentiment 

There's no proof either way...it depends on how you feel about the Dalish in general and their purpose.  Apparently, they feel that restoring history and any piece of lost lore/magic will help them in the long run.  Merrill lived that as she grew up.  I'd imagine most humans and city elves in the DAverse would disagree.

Ryzaki wrote...Oh yes. I hope she goes for Tevinter next.  Blowing up all the tryants country by country. 

If she can be in two places at once, she can do both.

[Ryzaki]

jlb524 wrote...
There's no proof either way...it depends on how you feel about the Dalish in general and their purpose.  Apparently, they feel that restoring history and any piece of lost lore/magic will help them in the long run.  Merrill lived that as she grew up.  I'd imagine most humans and city elves in the DAverse would disagree.

Yeah I'm not fond of the dalish. *tries to stop channeling her CE warden...fails* Stuck up pricks. 

If she can be in two places at once, she can do both.

Yes yes! Hopefully she can kill the white and black divine at the same time. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 07 novembre 2011 - 02:05 .

[Abispa]

Ryzaki wrote...
Yes yes! Hopefully she can kill the white and black divine at the same time. 

She IS the Black and the White Divine. And Leliana. Maybe Wynne, too.

[Abispa]

Xilizhra wrote...

All right, apparently you don't know how the Fade temptations work. They go in a very specific and arbitrary order, presumably to make thing easier on the developers/players.
Wryme will tempt Merrill if she's in the party. If she isn't, it'll tempt Fenris. If neither elf is in the party, it'll tempt Varric.
Caress will tempt Isabela, and if she's not in the party, will tempt Aveline.
No demon will tempt more than one companion, regardless of how many fall under their purview. I believe that only exists to ensure that your whole party won't try to kill you; in any case, the demons can probably only hold one illusion at a time.

I have been wanting to respond for a while, but you seem to take any criticism I have of the "friendship" Merrill personally, so I've waited.

The writers have chosen a "specific and 'arbitrary' order" for the betrayals, just as they chose to give Merrill an appealing personality. They did so, I believe, intentionally to reveal certain aspects of the characters. And with this order, they reveal that of all the party members, Isabela and Merrill have the weakest wills in dealing with demons.

You seem to dismiss this as just something to make it easier on players and gamemakers. Players need information to base their role playing choice on, and the gamemakers need to relay that information as clearly as possible. Having a "specific and 'arbitrary' order" does present an important bit of information about Isabela and Merrill quite clearly.

Yes, if Isabela and Merrill are not in the party the roles of betrayer falls onto others, but the fact remains that if they ARE in the party they will betray you every time, even if one of the #2 betrayers is in the party. And I am very sure the writers meant for us to take that into account in our developing relationships with those characters throughout the game. As a result my "canon" Hawkes have rivalries with them.

In short, I am pretty sure the order was really specific, but not really arbitrary.

Modifié par Abispa, 07 novembre 2011 - 03:35 .

[Xilizhra]

And with this order, they reveal that of all the party members, Isabela and Merrill have the weakest wills in dealing with demons.

If you choose to interpret it that way. You could also see it as which ones have the desires that are simplest for the demon to fill. Isabela and Merrill want fairly generic things: a nice ship with a sexy crew/the respect and restoration of the Dalish, so they're easy. Fenris wants power over one person and Aveline wants one person resurrected, so they're somewhat more specific and thus harder. Varric also wants revenge on one person, and it's the one most vaguely related to the demon's purview, so it'd have to work the hardest. It has nothing at all to do with willpower.

And I am very sure the writers meant for us to take that into account in our developing relationships with those characters throughout the game. As a result my "canon" Hawkes have rivalries with them.

I am not. I believe you're simply running with this to justify your own decisions, and whatever vicissitudes you inflict upon Merrill.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 07 novembre 2011 - 03:36 .

[GodWood]

jlb524 wrote...
Well, I think believing that sells her character short.  She's more than just the 'super sweet nice virginal LI' which is why I actually like her so much. 

I've never romanced her, is she a virgin?

[Abispa]

Xilizhra wrote...

And with this order, they reveal that of all the party members, Isabela and Merrill have the weakest wills in dealing with demons.

If you choose to interpret it that way. You could also see it as which ones have the desires that are simplest for the demon to fill. Isabela and Merrill want fairly generic things: a nice ship with a sexy crew/the respect and restoration of the Dalish, so they're easy. Fenris wants power over one person and Aveline wants one person resurrected, so they're somewhat more specific and thus harder. Varric also wants revenge on one person, and it's the one most vaguely related to the demon's purview, so it'd have to work the hardest. It has nothing at all to do with willpower.

And I am very sure the writers meant for us to take that into account in our developing relationships with those characters throughout the game. As a result my "canon" Hawkes have rivalries with them.

I am not. I believe you're simply running with this to justify your own decisions, and whatever vicissitudes you inflict upon Merrill.

Wow, I say they lack willpower to say no. You say they have desires
that make them easier targets for demons. Okay, you win.

My Hawkes never do anything to hurt Merrill, and in fact have risked their own lives and the lives of their friends to make sure nothing bad happens to her. Normally, I personally would not have a problem with people paying for their own actions, but as Ryzaki pointed out, if anything does go wrong with a mirror she won't be the only one harmed. And even is she were the only one at risk, my Hawkes will still try to stop her.

And I couldn't tell if you were trying to be sarcastic and humorous with that last line or not. Isn't this a thread about Merrill, much of which is devoted to players discussing how they interact with Merrill and why?

Modifié par Abispa, 07 novembre 2011 - 04:00 .

[jlb524]

GodWood wrote...

jlb524 wrote...
Well, I think believing that sells her character short.  She's more than just the 'super sweet nice virginal LI' which is why I actually like her so much. 

I've never romanced her, is she a virgin?

She never says.

I'd imagine you can believe what you want.

[Abispa]

GodWood wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

Well, I think believing that sells her character short.  She's more than just the 'super sweet nice virginal LI' which is why I actually like her so much.

 

I've never romanced her, is she a virgin?

I think the game is intentionally ambiguous about that. If you have a Dalish Warden save, male or female, there is enough that would allow the player to assume (if the player wanted to) that she and the Warden had a relationship. I have read several players posts who say they like to role play her that way.

[DrFumb1ezX]

GodWood wrote...

jlb524 wrote...
Well, I think believing that sells her character short.  She's more than just the 'super sweet nice virginal LI' which is why I actually like her so much. 

I've never romanced her, is she a virgin?

We're... led to believe as much. Of course, some people may assume that she isn't one by the time Hawke sleeps with her, the Dalish Warden was "with" her, or some other variation. YMMV.

Wait, just remembered, the Dalish take sex very seriously. Pretty much the opposite of Isabela. So, yeah, it's a pretty safe bet to assume she's a virgin. Like, 95% chance, to my math-challenged mind.:innocent:

[Abispa]

soccerchick wrote...

GodWood wrote...

jlb524 wrote...
Well, I think believing that sells her character short.  She's more than just the 'super sweet nice virginal LI' which is why I actually like her so much. 

I've never romanced her, is she a virgin?

We're... led to believe as much. Of course, some people may assume that she isn't one by the time Hawke sleeps with her, the Dalish Warden was "with" her, or some other variation. YMMV.

Wait, just remembered, the Dalish take sex very seriously. Pretty much the opposite of Isabela. So, yeah, it's a pretty safe bet to assume she's a virgin. Like, 95% chance, to my math-challenged mind.:innocent:

Merrill seems pretty obsessed with the Dalish Warden, so I could call that serious. Not so sure about Tamlen, though. And don't forget that Dalish can "dally" with human merchants, and the Warden can deflower the youngster at the Dalish camp of the first game.

[Xilizhra]

Wow, I say they lack willpower to say no. You say they have desires
that make them easier targets for demons. Okay, you win.

It has nothing to do with willpower, remember.

My Hawkes never do anything to hurt Merrill

Hah.

[GodWood]

She never says.

I'd imagine you can believe what you want.

Oh good.
So sick of Bioware using that trope.

I personally head canon that her and Tamlen were lovers. The fact that her original reason for playing with the 'evil death mirror' and facing the scrutiny of her clan and keeper was to simply bring back Tamlen leads me to believe there's enough room to wiggle a romance in.

Modifié par GodWood, 07 novembre 2011 - 04:13 .

[Quething]

The thing you have to remember about having this conversation with Xil, Abispa, is that she finds the Rival path inherently abusive.

I can't figure the Tamlen/Mahariel/Merrill relationship. Talking to Fenarel makes it seem like Mahariel, Tamlen and Fenarel were good friends, with Fenarel a bit on the outside of the Tamlen/Mahariel BFF unit, and none of them much liked rule-abiding sober stick-in-the-mud Merrill. But Merrill in DA2 behaves as though she was very close to Tamlen and Mahariel (Fenarel at least still clearly doesn't like her).

The most obvious interpretation seems to be that Merrill liked the boys but it wasn't particularly mutual, but I'm not particularly fond of that scenario, myself.

Modifié par Quething, 07 novembre 2011 - 04:20 .

[DrFumb1ezX]

Abispa wrote...

soccerchick wrote...

GodWood wrote...

jlb524 wrote...
Well, I think believing that sells her character short.  She's more than just the 'super sweet nice virginal LI' which is why I actually like her so much. 

I've never romanced her, is she a virgin?

We're... led to believe as much. Of course, some people may assume that she isn't one by the time Hawke sleeps with her, the Dalish Warden was "with" her, or some other variation. YMMV.

Wait, just remembered, the Dalish take sex very seriously. Pretty much the opposite of Isabela. So, yeah, it's a pretty safe bet to assume she's a virgin. Like, 95% chance, to my math-challenged mind.:innocent:

Merrill seems pretty obsessed with the Dalish Warden, so I could call that serious. Not so sure about Tamlen, though. And don't forget that Dalish can "dally" with human merchants, and the Warden can deflower the youngster at the Dalish camp of the first game.

True, but it may have been because Tamlen and Mahariel were the only 2 who befriended her in the Dalish camp. That's why YMMV, because Merrill could have been in a relationship with Mahariel. Mine wasn't. It was a sibling relationship for me.

Perhaps my point was bad, but I think that most Dalish typically wait for love to have sex. At least, that's what I've noticed. Besides, there are always Quagmires in every race.
And as I called myself, Mathematically-challenged here!