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[Maria Caliban]

"It’s a Keeper’s job to remember, even the dangerous things."

"All spirits are dangerous. I understood that. I'm sorry that you didn't."

Yeah, Merril is lying. She might think she can handle the danger, but she knows it's dangerous.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 22 novembre 2011 - 11:03 .

[jlb524]

Abispa wrote...
@ jlb524 -- I don't think it was ever a debate about whether or not Merrill thinks magic and the mirror are dangerous, just to what extent is she lying about how much she knows (or how little she knows) about the mirror's abilities and dangers.

I don't know for sure...I'm guessing what she tells Hawke is pretty accurate.

Abispa wrote...
From some of her party banter with Anders and Aveline, I get the impression that Merrill knows that she sounds "dumb" and many of her "innocent and naive" closing statements to those chats are actually snarky retorts and dismissals.

Yes...I always felt she used other people's perception of her as 'dumb and naive' to her advantage...or for personal lulz.  Which means it's an act to some a extent.  Granted, I think she was naive at first being new to city life and all that.

[jlb524]

It's dangerous because it contains dormant magic that no one knows everything about.

[Abispa]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

"It’s a Keeper’s job to remember, even the dangerous things."

"All spirits are dangerous. I understood that. I'm sorry that you didn't."

Yeah, Merril is lying. She might think she can handle the danger, but she knows it's dangerous.

But there aren't any spirits in the mirror. Merrill attempting to talk to demons in order to fix the mirror is certainly dangerous, but the mirror itself, sitting around in the Alienage, is completely harmless. Eluvians were used as communication devices; there's nothing dangerous about them.

My rivalry romance with a female mage Hawke had Merrill confessing that the Eluvian IS a danger to Kirkwall, and she worries that she might be overestimating her ability to work with it safely.

Witch Hunt showed that the Eluvians were means of teleportation, even INTO the Fade (and I assume it's possible to go from the Fade into the world).

I don't know if the mirror in the Warden's Keep was an Eluvian, but if it is, it demonstrates that an entire demonic army can charge out of one if the Veil is weak. And the entire game of DA2 demonstrates the Veil is DEFINITELY weak in and around Kirkwall.

However, I can't blame Merrill for not knowing what happened at the Warden's Keep.

But Merrill does know that this specific Eluvian was destroyed by Duncan because it was SPREADING THE BLIGHT. She suspects that it was a communication device as a result of her research, she apparently has no idea that it is a portal, and the only thing she and Hawke know for sure is that the mirror was "once" corrupted.

And, I'm sorry, unless you can tell me how the mirror was corrupted in the first place, there is little you can say that can convince me that she knows enough to keep the mirror from becoming corrupted again.

Yes, Merrill says she "cleansed" it with blood magic. Using the help of a Pride Demon who I'm sure only had her best interests at heart.

I'm not accusing Merrill of lying about it being a teleportation device. I think it is most probable that she doesn't know, even with all of her research. Even without metagaming, I felt Hawke had plenty of reason to doubt Merrill understands fully what she's dealing with.

[Knight of Dane]

Abispa wrote...
Witch Hunt showed that the Eluvians were means of teleportation, even INTO the Fade (and I assume it's possible to go from the Fade into the world).

I have long theorized exactly that.
Since time and space doesn't mean anything in the fade it's not impossible to think that you can use it to go into from point A and then exit into another and appear at at point B

Abispa also wrote...
I don't know if the mirror in the Warden's Keep was an Eluvian, but if it is, it demonstrates that an entire demonic army can charge out of one if the Veil is weak. And the entire game of DA2 demonstrates the Veil is DEFINITELY weak in and around Kirkwall.

The demons of Warden Keep was spawned by the summoning circle Avernus created, the one you are closing.

[Abispa]

Knight of Dane wrote...

The demons of Warden Keep was spawned by the summoning circle Avernus created, the one you are closing.

That's why I said I wasn't sure if the portal was an Eluvian. It looks like one, but it may just be a similarity in the graphics.

[Knight of Dane]

Abispa wrote...

Knight of Dane wrote...

The demons of Warden Keep was spawned by the summoning circle Avernus created, the one you are closing.

That's why I said I wasn't sure if the portal was an Eluvian. It looks like one, but it may just be a similarity in the graphics.

And that's why i corrected you.

[jlb524]

Abispa wrote...
Witch Hunt showed that the Eluvians were means of teleportation, even INTO the Fade (and I assume it's possible to go from the Fade into the world).

There's no evidence of this.  Morrigan said the one she activated would teleport her to somewhere beyond the Fade (wherever that is).

Abispa wrote...
And, I'm sorry, unless you can tell me how the mirror was corrupted in the first place, there is little you can say that can convince me that she knows enough to keep the mirror from becoming corrupted again.

Keep it away from Darkspawn.

[Knight of Dane]

jlb524 wrote...

Abispa wrote...
Witch Hunt showed that the Eluvians were means of teleportation, even INTO the Fade (and I assume it's possible to go from the Fade into the world).

There's no evidence of this.  Morrigan said the one she activated would teleport her to somewhere beyond the Fade (wherever that is).

To our world! She's breaking the fourth wall!

[Abispa]

jlb524 wrote...

Keep it away from Darkspawn.

Legacy suggests that the Blight originated from the incident at the Black City. If the mirror is a portal to the Fade, it could generate the Blight, perhaps by a curious young Dalish mage who is exploring it's features.

I could be wrong, I admit, but I think there is plenty of suspicious things about the Eluvian for Hawke to come to a reasonable conclusion that it's better left in pieces and Merrill will be better off. Then drop it into a volcano.

All Hawke has to go on to justify NOT taking the rivalry path is Merrill's claims that she's in control and the stunning power of her frowny faces and "you kicked my puppy" voice. Marethari definitely exudes more confidence in HER convinctions that it's dangerous, plus she's "friends" with Flemeth. Plus, Flemeth's warning to Merrill definitely doesn't inspire confidence in Merrill's judgment.

[jlb524]

Abispa wrote...
Legacy suggests that the Blight originated from the incident at the Black City. If the mirror is a portal to the Fade, it could generate the Blight, perhaps by a curious young Dalish mage who is exploring it's features.

From what we know from Morrigan, they link to places beyond the Fade.  If it did link to the Fade, wouldn't demons have traveled out from it?  

The most likely explanation we have now for how the eluvian in the cave was tainted is from the Darkspawn that were roaming around the Brecilian Forest.  The mirror holds magic within its glass (Merrill's shard retained this magic) so its reasonable to believe that it could also absorb the taint.

Abispa wrote...
All Hawke has to go on to justify NOT taking the rivalry path is Merrill's claims that she's in control and the stunning power of her frowny faces and "you kicked my puppy" voice. Marethari definitely exudes more confidence in HER convinctions that it's dangerous, plus she's "friends" with Flemeth. Plus, Flemeth's warning to Merrill definitely doesn't inspire confidence in Merrill's judgment.

I'd say Marethari is shadier than Merrill.  I find it difficult to believe her when she's very contradictory.

Flemeth warned Merrill to keep her eyes open along her path but not to leave the path.

[ydaraishy]

Abispa wrote...

Legacy suggests that the Blight originated from the incident at the Black City. If the mirror is a portal to the Fade, it could generate the Blight, perhaps by a curious young Dalish mage who is exploring it's features.

DAO tells us blights start from underground, not from mirrors above ground.

Abispa wrote...
All Hawke has to go on to justify NOT taking the rivalry path is Merrill's claims that she's in control and the stunning power of her frowny faces and "you kicked my puppy" voice. Marethari definitely exudes more confidence in HER convinctions that it's dangerous, plus she's "friends" with Flemeth. Plus, Flemeth's warning to Merrill definitely doesn't inspire confidence in Merrill's judgment.

*sigh* There are lots of justifications for not taking the rivalry path. It depends on how you're RP'ing Hawke's motivations and your Hawke's perspectives on Merrill's work. 

Modifié par ydaraishy, 23 novembre 2011 - 02:33 .

[jlb524]

ydaraishy wrote...
*sigh* There are lots of justifications for not taking the rivalry path. It depends on how you're RP'ing Hawke's motivations and your Hawke's perspectives on Merrill's work. 

Just curious, how do you RP your Hawke?

[ydaraishy]

jlb524 wrote...

ydaraishy wrote...
*sigh* There are lots of justifications for not taking the rivalry path. It depends on how you're RP'ing Hawke's motivations and your Hawke's perspectives on Merrill's work. 

Just curious, how do you RP your Hawke?

She trusts and respects Merrill, probably is a little interested in Merrill's work herself, and also wants to see Merrill's dream of restoring any elvhen heritage realized. She's primarily motivated by curiosity into the _truly_ unknown rather than into the occult and "demons", necessarily, and probably values that (and Merrill's goal) a little higher than the possible dangers with the mirror. She'd reason that she's there to also see if anything went wrong with the mirror and intervene if necessary. 

Furthermore, she's probably too lighthearted and easygoing to be grumpy and interfering, moreover if she were to be interfering and meddlesome, it'd be for comic effect, and that only really would work with a truly deserving target. She tends to deal with hard, difficult, or sensitive situations with humour, but tends to react softly and kindly with Merrill. Wouldn't interfere with the deal Merrill makes with Marethari, would consider it low. 

The germ of the RP idea was to make a "Hawkeye Hawke", but like all character concepts, they do tend to diverge once one gets into playing them...

Could say more, but that covers all the Merrill-related stuff.

Modifié par ydaraishy, 23 novembre 2011 - 03:04 .

[Abispa]

I have one male reaver who did a friendship romance just so I could see the other side. If I'm not metagaming, I can just assume that Hawke's rational for not doing the rivalry is that he assumes he can kill all the bad stuff she brings until she figures it out and that the pay off will be worth it. Plus, he's a sucker for frowny faces and you-kicked-my-puppy voice.

I at first wanted to do him as diplomatic so that he could be the world's most polite reaver with the world's cutest blood mage, but eventually I restarted and made him a rough, tough, pro-mage bastard. Aveline is kicking his ass all over her office, Isabela ran away, Fenris eventually turns on him, Anders LOVES him for being so pro-mage, Bethany loves him for being pro-mage though she yell at him twice, but Merrill...

My role model for their relationship is http://www.youtube.c...?v=pccO1RBJZL8.

[jlb524]

ydaraishy wrote...
She trusts and respects Merrill, probably is a little interested in Merrill's work herself, and also wants to see Merrill's dream of restoring any elvhen heritage realized. She's primarily motivated by curiosity into the _truly_ unknown rather than into the occult and "demons", necessarily, and probably values that (and Merrill's goal) a little higher than the possible dangers with the mirror. She'd reason that she's there to also see if anything went wrong with the mirror and intervene if necessary. 

My rogue is similar to this.

My mage is more interested in the potential power of the mirror and she feels Merrill shouldn't study it 'for her people' but for herself since the clan obviously doesn't appreciate Merrill's efforts.

[ydaraishy]

jlb524 wrote...

My mage is more interested in the potential power of the mirror and she feels Merrill shouldn't study it 'for her people' but for herself since the clan obviously doesn't appreciate Merrill's efforts.

I like to think that magic in the DA universe is a tiny bit like science -- potential to do a lot of harm, potential to get a lot more power/advanced, potential to know a lot and find out new things...

[TEWR]

curse my wounded hand that makes it harder to type correctly!

Abispa wrote...

That's open to interpretation and I won't mock yours. My interpretation of the rivalry path is that she know longer needs to find some magic artifact to gain some sense of worth. She no longer needs Hawke to hold her hand and stroke her ego in order to become the baddest cute Dalish blood mage fallen Keeper the world has ever seen.

I'm speaking about the blurb the Rivalry bonus says in her ability tree

I think I'm gonna have to side w/ Marethari on this one. Merrill does indeed know about the dangers of the spirits of the Fade but Audacity was able to make a deal w/ Merrill. No one should make deals w/ demons in the Fade. Audacity wanted her to finish the eluvian so he could use that as a portal to escape his imprisonment and then possess Merrill.

Audacity wasn't in the Fade. Marethari makes it clear in both the short story and the game that Audacity was sundered from the Fade -- akin to the way Justice was -- and couldn't harm anyone since he was trapped in a statue for centuries and would continue to be trapped.

That's why Marethari said she couldn't fight him in the Fade. He was a remnant from the war long ago when he was summoned from the Fade so long ago.

Audacity was getting the better of Merrill. He was praying on Merrill's Dalish pride and her hope to restore her people to greatness and was succeeding. Justice isn't a demon but a spirit that embodies the principle of justice. Anders' own rage corrupted Justice and turned him into the spirit of Vengeance.

Merrill's Dalish pride diminishes over the years. Marethari's pride as a mother-figure however was only growing stronger, and that's what Audacity was preying on.

Her intent is still to jest....even if she's bad at it.

I found it funny actually.

[bleetman]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Eluvians were used as communication devices.

As far as we know.

Which, in terms of ancient elven lore in general, is basically squat.

Modifié par bleetman, 23 novembre 2011 - 05:27 .

[jlb524]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Her intent is still to jest....even if she's bad at it.

I found it funny actually.

I find her humor funny too.

My point was that others not finding Merrill funny or not getting her humor doesn't mean she wasn't trying.  I actually don't think anyone in game really gets her humor, tbh.

[Ravensword]

Well, that mirror still spells trouble and we should kill it w/ fire. What I think my LadyHawke should do is after a night of hawt  wimminz secks (which undoubtedly involved a desire demon or two), Hawke sneaks out of bed, quietly gets dressed and then sneaks out of the estate. She will leave no room for error, so she takes a completely indirect, roundabout course to make sure she isn't being followed. Once she makes it to the alienage, she breaks into Merrill's home and takes apart the eluvian so she can secretly move it somewhere safe to destroy it later.

Merrill will eventually find out that the eluvian is missing and will want Hawke to help her find it but Hawke will state that it's pointless to go after some harmless little mirror, herein Merrill will object to it being harmless and confess that the mirror is actually dangerous and if it were to, for example, be tainted, then darkspawn hordes will poor through like there's no tomorrow.

Marethari sacrificed her life for Merrill and she seemed to miss the point of her sacrifice. What's to stop Merrill from contacting another demon in the Fade? I get the feeling she eventually become obsessed again and Hawke would beg her not to go down this path but this would probably be Merrill's reaction:
http://t2.gstatic.co...0CEgNPP_FVatfNy

Modifié par Ravensword, 23 novembre 2011 - 12:35 .

[jlb524]

But what if Hawke wants to become an evil queen of magical mirrors with Merrill?

They could take over Thedas together. Travel back in time to steal some griffons. They'd be unstoppable!

[Ravensword]

Oh dear. You've been possessed by spirits of the Fade, haven't you? Most certainly a desire demon.

Yes, well. I will indulge you in this case. You make a strong case for this. Yes, they can become evil queens of magical mirrors, but you're gonna have to explain that one to me. Is this supported in the Lore? I want to believe! And I love the idea of going back in time and stealing some griffons; Feathers and Mordecai. Not even the Maker could stop them. Soon the Veil will disappear and the Fade becomes one w/ Thedas.

Modifié par Ravensword, 23 novembre 2011 - 04:23 .

[LobselVith8]

Ravensword wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Merrill pretty much concludes her investigation into the Eluvian, regardless of whether Hawke endorsed her efforts in Friendship or opposed them in Rivalry. It's the reason why she stops going back to her home in the Alienage and resides full-time at the Amell manor.

I hope so. She was screwing around w/ a portal to hell.

Who makes such a claim? Even Marethari bases her opinion on what she thinks the ancient elves would have wanted, rather than any factual evidence at hand. Do you think Hawke thinks this is the case? Because I must have missed the part where Hawke - a human - was more informed about the Eluvian than Merrill was, considering that Hawke is completely ignorant about what this two thousand year old piece of elven technology actually does, since Merrill appears to be the only one who actually studied it. In fact, according to Morrigan, it leads to a place "beyond this world, and beyond the Fade."

Ravensword wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

It seemed like Merrill was joking, which she often does (i.e. Anders and Ser Pounce-A-Lot, followed by talking to Bethany about having a pet griffin named Feathers). Just listen to her when she heads back to the Sabrae clan and speaks to Ilen about how "wonderful" the Alienage is.

A lot of the time it doesn't seem like Merrill is joking. Even when she told Ilen about her time spent in the alienage she tries to pass it off as a joke but she sounds miserable.

Ilen clearly knew she was saying that in jest because Merrill didn't really mean it, which is why their conversation breaks down into an argument over why Merrill left in the first place. Merrill can be serious at the same time, like when she says that Anders didn't seem to understand that all spirits are dangerous. There's a difference between Merrill talking about Ser Pounce-A-Lot and Feathers where she's not being serious, and how she gets very serious in how she treats Hawke when he calls Pol a 'coward.'

Ravensword wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Considering Marethari became an abomination by letting Audacity loose from its imprisonment, I don't see how Merrill is the naive one. Merrill knew there were dangers to dealing with dealing with "spirits," listen to her when she addresses Anders about how dangerous the denizens of the Fade are: "Anders... there's no such thing as a good spirit. There never was. All spirits are dangerous. I understood that. I'm sorry that you didn't."

I think I'm gonna have to side w/ Marethari on this one. Merrill does indeed know about the dangers of the spirits of the Fade but Audacity was able to make a deal w/ Merrill. No one should make deals w/ demons in the Fade. Audacity wanted her to finish the eluvian so he could use that as a portal to escape his imprisonment and then possess Merrill. Audacity was getting the better of Merrill. He was praying on Merrill's Dalish pride and her hope to restore her people to greatness and was succeeding. Justice isn't a demon but a spirit that embodies the principle of justice. Anders' own rage corrupted Justice and turned him into the spirit of Vengeance.

Audacity taught Merrill blood magic, which seems to be the extent of their interaction. Given how there's no evidence that Audacity could escape through the Eluvian as Marethari claimed, since the Keeper doesn't even address how she would know this unless Audacity told her (and why would it tell her unless it was trying to manipulate her?), I don't see why the Keeper should be trusted. Merrill makes it clear to an aggressive Hawke that she's not going to let Audacity loose, but she asks Hawke to accompany her because if Audacity is already loose, she could end up possessed and she wants someone to kill her. This displays more intelligence and maturity than Marethari letting Audacity loose and warning no one about it, including the men, women, and children of her clan who are living closeby.

Ravensword wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You mean Merrill had an opinion about how the Eluvian could possibly help the People, perhaps even irrevocably change the lives of elves across Thedas with revolutionary technology, based on research Gaider addressed she did by studying lore and extrapolating information from the shard, while Marethari had an opinion based on what she thought their ancient ancestors would have wanted. I'd trust the scholar who put the time in and did the research over the person who had an uninformed opinion and let a demon loose.

Well, you know what they say. The road to hell is paved w/ good intentions. Maybe Merrill can continue her work on the eluvian w/o consorting w/ demons.

Well, we see how doing nothing but standing idly by turned out for Kirkwall, too. I don't think Hawke should have been passive at all. I applaud her being pro-active about the People, since she was doing more than pretty much everyone amongst her clan in trying to change the plight of the People.

In addition, considering that Gaider addressed that Merrill was working on the Eluvian based on lore and the extrapolated information from the shard, she already was building the Eluvian without the aid of any spirit. She turned to Audacity to learn blood magic, because she lacked the sufficient amount of lyrium to cleanse the shard with ordinary magic. In fact, it's after seven years of working on ancient technology that baffled even the Tevinter Magisters that she contemplated going to Audacity to find out of it really knew how to build the Eluvian, since the only ones left alive who might possess such knowledge are the denizens of the Fade.