17176 réponses à ce sujet

[Ravensword]

I like plants.

Let's review. So, Audacity's entire plan was to possess Marethari?

[TEWR]

pretty much.

[Wulfram]

I'd rather think the Audacity's plan was simply to get connections to the outside world and see what opportunities turn up. Getting Merrill hooked on mirror fixing and hoping she'd become desperate enough to make a misstep was probably Plan A, while Marethari was Plan B.

[TEWR]

I don't know, it seems like Marethari may have been his main target and he used the different stances on the Eluvian to further distance them from each other in the hopes that Marethari would try something.

In the Merrill short story, it's Marethari and Audacity who hold a conversation and he beseeches her to free him.

I think Marethari also had more pride because she was the Keeper of the clan and thought that her way was the proper way because of her station.

[Ravensword]

So, the Audacity couldn't free himself via the eluvian. The eluvian was more of a way for the demon to manipulate Merrill via her desire to bring back the days of Elvhenan and taught her how to use blood magic. People don't seem to see how Audacity could've freed himself by using the eluvian as a way out b/c it wasn't trapped in the Fade but sealed in a prison of sorts.

Merrill's companion quest in act III is when she's going back up to the Sundermount to talk to Audacity again to find out how to activate the eluvian and it's quite possible that the demon would've used this opportunity to try to gain possession of Merrill.

[TEWR]

Merrill only wanted to talk to Audacity. She tells an aggressive Hawke she has no intention of freeing him. And Audacity could only be freed by a powerful spell -- as he was trapped in the statue for centuries and would continue to be trapped unless said powerful spell was used -- and we don't even know if Merrill knows.

And the Eluvians link beyond the Fade, not to it. So Marethari's assumptions were wrong.

So, Merrill was never at risk.

[Ravensword]

So what kind of deals could the demon make w/ her? Marethari believed that the deal Merrill made w/ Audacity came w/ a heavy price that would eventually have to be paid. She seemed to believe that Merrill was in danger.

[Fox In The Box]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Merrill only wanted to talk to Audacity. She tells an aggressive Hawke she has no intention of freeing him. And Audacity could only be freed by a powerful spell -- as he was trapped in the statue for centuries and would continue to be trapped unless said powerful spell was used -- and we don't even know if Merrill knows.

And the Eluvians link beyond the Fade, not to it. So Marethari's assumptions were wrong.

So, Merrill was never at risk.

I'm not so sure. Audacity sits on all the knowledge and thus has all the power - Merrill has already tried everything she can, and if she have to see him to make it work, she'd have no other option than to do as he instructs in order to get the mirror up and running again, and I can easily picture him using that chance to trick her into freeing him.

[TEWR]

Fox In The Box wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Merrill only wanted to talk to Audacity. She tells an aggressive Hawke she has no intention of freeing him. And Audacity could only be freed by a powerful spell -- as he was trapped in the statue for centuries and would continue to be trapped unless said powerful spell was used -- and we don't even know if Merrill knows.

And the Eluvians link beyond the Fade, not to it. So Marethari's assumptions were wrong.

So, Merrill was never at risk.

I'm not so sure. Audacity sits on all the knowledge and thus has all the power - Merrill has already tried everything she can, and if she have to see him to make it work, she'd have no other option than to do as he instructs in order to get the mirror up and running again, and I can easily picture him using that chance to trick her into freeing him.

That's simply what you believe would happen -- which is obvious given how you phrased it -- but Merrill knows better. She keeps the relationship on a platonic level.

Ravensword wrote...

So what kind of deals could the demon make w/ her? Marethari believed that the deal Merrill made w/ Audacity came w/ a heavy price that would eventually have to be paid. She seemed to believe that Merrill was in danger.

There's nothing to indicate Marethari was right about a deadly price having to be paid. She only believes that without her intervention a price needed to be paid. Merrill did extensive study on the Eluvians -- without the help of Audacity -- while Marethari did none. Marethari considered them best left to the past simply because the Darkspawn had infected them. But Merrill removed that danger with blood magic -- which we know is connected to the taint. -- and thus there was no reason to fear the Eluvians.

If anything, Merrill's price was already paid for. The price she paid for learning blood magic was having to leave her clan. Of her own choosing sure, but it was still the price she paid and she was willing to do it.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 22 décembre 2011 - 02:02 .

[Fox In The Box]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

That's simply what you believe would happen -- which is obvious given how you phrased it -- but Merrill knows better. She keeps the relationship on a platonic level.

I don't have any "beliefs" per se. Merrill's story is one that has at least two interpretations that are valid, so settling definitely for one potential hypothetical outcome when so much is unknown isn't really useful. I'm just saying that "Merrill was never at risk"  isn't strictly accurate.

As much as Merrill says she knows better, I'm not sure about that either - a good scholar she may be, but she's not very crafty whenever dealing with social situations. She states herself that she's exhausted all other options, or else she wouldn't be seeing him for help. If he - for example - gave her a spell or a ritual that was meant to get the mirror working, would she be able to tell if he was telling the truth or if he was lying and this spell was one that would free him from his prison? Would she decide that dealing with him was too risky and seek help elsewhere?

Modifié par Fox In The Box, 22 décembre 2011 - 02:37 .

[Heimdall]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Merrill only wanted to talk to Audacity. She tells an aggressive Hawke she has no intention of freeing him. And Audacity could only be freed by a powerful spell -- as he was trapped in the statue for centuries and would continue to be trapped unless said powerful spell was used -- and we don't even know if Merrill knows.

And the Eluvians link beyond the Fade, not to it. So Marethari's assumptions were wrong.

So, Merrill was never at risk.

I'm not so sure.  It was Audacity that taught Merrill a blood magic ritual for cleansing the mirror.  It's well within the ream of possibility that it did more than just cleanse it.  The mirror doesn't link to the fade, but Audacity was in the statue, not the Fade.  I think he was trying to alter the purpose of the mirror just enough to allow him to pass through, possibly attuning it's magic to himself.  It seems the more reasonable course to assume that Audacity had a plan rather than just winging it and hoping Merrill would make a misstep.

I think to say Merrill was at no risk is a fairly big assumption.

[TEWR]

Lord Aesir wrote...

I'm not so sure.  It was Audacity that taught Merrill a blood magic ritual for cleansing the mirror.

Actually Audacity just taught her blood magic. She just applied blood magic to amplify her healing magic that she knew from her time as Marethari's first to cleanse the shard.

Remember that in Origins Marethari's magic was able to keep Mahariel alive by keeping the taint from spreading too far. And Marethari says that Merrill knows this magic.

That's why she said if she had mountains of lyrium around her, the blood magic would've been unnecessary.

[Heimdall]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

I'm not so sure.  It was Audacity that taught Merrill a blood magic ritual for cleansing the mirror.

Actually Audacity just taught her blood magic. She just applied blood magic to amplify her healing magic that she knew from her time as Marethari's first to cleanse the shard.

Remember that in Origins Marethari's magic was able to keep Mahariel alive by keeping the taint from spreading too far. And Marethari says that Merrill knows this magic.

That's why she said if she had mountains of lyrium around her, the blood magic would've been unnecessary.

Actually no, she says it was Audacity that taught her a blood magic ritual to cleanse the shard.  I played through the game not so long ago.

[TEWR]

Lord Aesir wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

I'm not so sure.  It was Audacity that taught Merrill a blood magic ritual for cleansing the mirror.

Actually Audacity just taught her blood magic. She just applied blood magic to amplify her healing magic that she knew from her time as Marethari's first to cleanse the shard.

Remember that in Origins Marethari's magic was able to keep Mahariel alive by keeping the taint from spreading too far. And Marethari says that Merrill knows this magic.

That's why she said if she had mountains of lyrium around her, the blood magic would've been unnecessary.

Actually no, she says it was Audacity that taught her a blood magic ritual to cleanse the shard.  I played through the game not so long ago.

I'm almost positive she just says she learned blood magic from Audacity. That doesn't mean Audacity taught her a specific ritual.

So I found a... spirit. He gave me the power to cleanse it through blood magic. --- Merrill

That is not saying that she learned a ritual. That's saying that she finally acquired the way to get enough power to cleanse it with her healing magic. By using blood to amplify the magic

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 22 décembre 2011 - 08:13 .

[jlb524]

Merrill said the spirit gave her the power to purify the mirror (blood magic)...she said she could have used lyrium instead if she had it.

[TEWR]

exactly. Lyrium is used to amplify spells just like blood magic. Which means that she used blood magic to amplify the healing magic she already knew.

Sadly none of her trees actually have a healing spell that can apply to other people, but it's still the lore from DAO so it carries over to DAII.

[jlb524]

I cheat and give her the Creation tree for that reason (well, and because of haste).

She's pretty much a beast of awesomeness with healing and haste.

[DrFumb1ezX]

I was slightly irked at her not having the creation tree. I had to bring Anders more often than I would have liked. But then Merrill would be too OP a companion to have in your party.

[Abispa]

Part of the charm of DA2 is having characters in the party that don't like each other, don't like what Hawke is doing, or who Hawke may not like, so limitations are cool by me. I tend to use Merrill as an "archer" instead of a mage, meaning that I'll use her in place of Sebastian or Varric, not Anders or Bethany.

[Knight of Dane]

Bah, i never needed that much healing anyway. Anders has always only been in my party when i wanted him to, never if i just needed him.

[Ravensword]

So let me get this straight. The eluvian in Merrill's house isn't dangerous, right? So, it was Marethari's ignorance about r;uvians that influenced her decision to allow Audacity to possess her then. Had she known that Audacity wouldn't have been able to escape via the eluvian, then she wouldn't have let Audacity possess her, no?

[bleetman]

The creation tree having a heal is almost irrelevant.

The creation tree having haste is what makes Anders frustratingly necessary. Go without a creation mage, and your party jettisons a whole heap of dps. Heroic aura and glyph of paralysis aren't to be sniffed at either. There simply isn't any other ability tree that boosts the rest of the party to the same extent, so only having one creation mage is a bit annoying.

(Though I just ran with a mod that gave Merrill creation magic, trololol.)

Ravensword wrote...

So let me get this straight. The eluvian in Merrill's house isn't dangerous, right?

Depends who you ask. I'd be a bit wary of ancient magics that nobody seems to really known much about anymore, but that's just me. I'd go with whatever Merrill says, but even she doesn't seem all that definitive.

Modifié par bleetman, 24 décembre 2011 - 12:39 .

[jlb524]

Ravensword wrote...
So let me get this straight. The eluvian in Merrill's house isn't dangerous, right?

It's not working so....not at the moment.

Ravensword wrote... 
So, it was Marethari's ignorance about r;uvians that influenced her decision to allow Audacity to possess her then.

That and her pride...it has to be the dumbest decision.

She says she can't fight the demon in the Fade (b/c it's not in the Fade)...okay.

Then she says she doesn't want to banish it to the Fade because it will become stronger...okay.

So...what should she do?

1)  Leave it in the statue and warn Merrill about the demon's plans if she's so sure that this is what it is going to do. 

2)  Let it possess her and put her clan (and Merrill/Hawke) in danger (even though she's doing this to protect them).  Best case scenario....Abomination!Marethari is defeated and she's killed and no one is harmed by it.  That is what happened...but we all know what happens to demons when their host is killed...they get banished back to the Fade!

She went with option 2 of course.

[Ravensword]

jlb524 wrote...

Ravensword wrote...
So let me get this straight. The eluvian in Merrill's house isn't dangerous, right?

It's not working so....not at the moment.

Ravensword wrote... 
So, it was Marethari's ignorance about r;uvians that influenced her decision to allow Audacity to possess her then.

That and her pride...it has to be the dumbest decision.

She says she can't fight the demon in the Fade (b/c it's not in the Fade)...okay.

Then she says she doesn't want to banish it to the Fade because it will become stronger...okay.

So...what should she do?

1)  Leave it in the statue and warn Merrill about the demon's plans if she's so sure that this is what it is going to do. 

2)  Let it possess her and put her clan (and Merrill/Hawke) in danger (even though she's doing this to protect them).  Best case scenario....Abomination!Marethari is defeated and she's killed and no one is harmed by it.  That is what happened...but we all know what happens to demons when their host is killed...they get banished back to the Fade!

She went with option 2 of course.

But Merril cleansed the eluvian. There shouldn's be any worry about it spreading the Blight and since it doesn't link to the Fade, there shouldn't be any worry of demons pouring out when it is activated.

Are you sure it was Marethari's pride? She seemed to do it out of love than pride. Love and ignoranceDoes Merrill know the spell that can free Audacity from the prison? If she didn't, then Audacity wouldn't have been able to free himself by tricking her. Or could it have somehow possessed her when she goes to confer w/ it? Audacity was able to teach her blood magic but doesn't seem to have any sort of power and can only communicate w/ Merrill and Marethari. Shouldn't Marethari have known that? Audacity probably wouldn't have been able to do anything other than communicate w/ them and so there probably shouldn't have been any real danger at all. It was only Marethari's erroneous belief that Audacity would've been able to use the eluvian to escape his prison and possess and then Merrill that led to this tragedy. A grievious lapse in judgement on Marethari's part.

[FiliusMartis]

It's pride in the fact that Marethari won't accept the possibility that she's wrong about how the Eluvian and the spirit operate. Of course, Marethari thinks the mirror should be gotten rid of and that dealing with Audacity is too dangerous. And Marethari is the Keeper. She's the smartest, most experienced, wisest of them all right? Merrill just can't accept that Marethari knows best! So yes, it's love, but it's also pride.

When Merrill takes Hawke up there, she warns him that something "could go wrong" and she become possessed. It's honestly a bit vague.

That being said, I think the risk is that Audacity could tell Merrill how to fix the mirror and actually lie to her and try to con her into doing a ritual to free him. Of course, even that depends on her falling for it. Audacity is, of course, a pride demon, and Merrill really isn't prideful, so I always questioned her being his target in the first place.