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[TEWR]

But Merril cleansed the eluvian. There shouldn's be any worry about it spreading the Blight and since it doesn't link to the Fade, there shouldn't be any worry of demons pouring out when it is activated.

Are you sure it was Marethari's pride? She seemed to do it out of love than pride. Love and ignorance

It's the type of pride you see in the expression Mother knows best. The only difference is that Marethari warps it to being Only Mother knows best, especially on matters that she is ignorant of.

She doesn't even think she might be wrong, and in her mind because she's the Keeper -- so I guess Only Keeper knows best -- she must be right.

That's partially why I hate her character. She just comes off as incredibly arrogant, which fits considering her pride led to her possession.

Does Merrill know the spell that can free Audacity from the prison? If she didn't, then Audacity wouldn't have been able to free himself by tricking her. Or could it have somehow possessed her when she goes to confer w/ it?

Doubtful. If this was the case, it wouldn't have needed to be freed to possess Marethari. 

Audacity was able to teach her blood magic but doesn't seem to have any sort of power and can only communicate w/ Merrill and Marethari.

In the Merrill short story Audacity was able to conjure up images of ancient Elvhenan that Merrill and Marethari saw, so he's not completely powerless.

None of his powers that he can use are really dangerous mind you.

Shouldn't Marethari have known that? Audacity probably wouldn't have been able to do anything other than communicate w/ them and so there probably shouldn't have been any real danger at all. It was only Marethari's erroneous belief that Audacity would've been able to use the eluvian to escape his prison and possess and then Merrill that led to this tragedy. A grievious lapse in judgement on Marethari's part.

Indeed. jlb summed it up nicely. Marethari's logic was incredibly flawed.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 25 décembre 2011 - 04:50 .

[bleetman]

jlb524 wrote...

1)  Leave it in the statue and warn Merrill about the demon's plans if she's so sure that this is what it is going to do. 

2)  Let it possess her and put her clan (and Merrill/Hawke) in danger (even though she's doing this to protect them).  Best case scenario....Abomination!Marethari is defeated and she's killed and no one is harmed by it.  That is what happened...but we all know what happens to demons when their host is killed...they get banished back to the Fade!

She went with option 2 of course.

Well, yeah. She'd already tried option one over and over and over and gotten nowhere. Option two only came around as a desperate last resort.

It bothers me that people keep seeing fit to paint Marethari's sacrifice in some increasingly negative light. Regardless of whether or not you think Merrill was in any actual legitimate danger of possession, Marethari definitely thought she was.

Modifié par bleetman, 25 décembre 2011 - 09:52 .

[TEWR]

Saying "Stop working on the Eluvian" hardly constitutes warning Merrill about the possible dangers associated with it. Specifics are needed.

[Sifr]

Marethari's third option, we're forgetting, is that she repeatedly asked Hawke to intervene on her behalf when it came to Merrill's welfare.

We see this both in Act 1 when she makes the request to watch over Merrill and in Act 2 when she leaves it to Hawke to decide whether to give Merrill the Arulin'Holm. It makes sense that Marethari may have done so because Hawke, being both a Shemlen and knowing little of Elven history, would therefore offer Merrill an unbiased perspective and perhaps sway her from her dangerous path.

The problem that occured was, whether or not Hawke did support Merrill or not, that she simply would not abandon her project due to her pride and would rather continue to live in Kirkwall as an exile. Dialogue with Marethari heavily implies that this is the only condition to which Merrill is no longer welcome within the Clan. It is perhaps reasonable to assume that the reason why the Dalish spent so long on Sundermount was due to Marethari refusing to budge until Merrill returned and admitted that she was wrong.

Sooner or later, Marethari knew that Merrill would likely return to ask the Demon seeking aid and as the years went on, Merrill gave no indication she would ever give up restoring the Eluvian.

Getting possessed on the other hand? Its hard to see exactly what would motivate her to do such a ridiculous thing? Why didn't she simply take the statue, head down to the Wounded Coast and pitch it off of a cliff?

[TEWR]

Sifr1449 wrote...


We see this both in Act 1 when she makes the request to watch over Merrill and in Act 2 when she leaves it to Hawke to decide whether to give Merrill the Arulin'Holm. It makes sense that Marethari may have done so because Hawke, being both a Shemlen and knowing little of Elven history, would therefore offer Merrill an unbiased perspective and perhaps sway her from her dangerous path.

Marethari also said that she would give Merrill the Arulin'holm. Merrill invoked an Elven custom and Marethari agreed to do it. Hawke -- who as you said and I've said on other forums happens to know nothing of Elven culture  -- was simply a witness to the deed.

If Marethari wanted Hawke to be the recipient, she should've made it clear. She should've said "Slay the Varterral and I will leave the decision to Hawke".

The problem that occured was, whether or not Hawke did support Merrill or not, that she simply would not abandon her project due to her pride and would rather continue to live in Kirkwall as an exile.

Good thing too considering Marethari turned the clan against Merrill by Act 2. 

Dialogue with Marethari heavily implies that this is the only condition to which Merrill is no longer welcome within the Clan. It is perhaps reasonable to assume that the reason why the Dalish spent so long on Sundermount was due to Marethari refusing to budge until Merrill returned and admitted that she was wrong.

The reasons Merrill isn't welcome anymore is due to:

1) Blood magic
2) Marethari telling the clan Merrill will bring back the taint from a cleansed mirror.
3) The Eluvian

If Merrill were to return she would still have the taint progress within her body, and she'd either become a broodmother -- leading to Shrieks plaguing the Elves -- or she'd attract the Darkspawn. Or she'd venture off to go towards the Darkspawn.

Marethari's logic however is flawed because she thinks that if Merrill stops working on the Eluvian, Merrill won't be tainted anymore.

It's even more flawed given that Merrill used blood magic to amplify the healing magic Marethari taught her that -- without the aid of lyrium or blood magic -- helped combat Mahariel's taint.

Sooner or later, Marethari knew that Merrill would likely return to ask the Demon seeking aid and as the years went on, Merrill gave no indication she would ever give up restoring the Eluvian.

Getting possessed on the other hand? Its hard to see exactly what would motivate her to do such a ridiculous thing? Why didn't she simply take the statue, head down to the Wounded Coast and pitch it off of a cliff?

Marethari's pride was what the demon truly played on, so any rational act that could've been done was no longer existent to her.

Also, I'm now imagining Merrill as a Mafia Godmother.

Merrill: Make sure Audacity's sleeping with the fishes.

[jlb524]

bleetman wrote...

Well, yeah. She'd already tried option one over and over and over and gotten nowhere. Option two only came around as a desperate last resort.

It bothers me that people keep seeing fit to paint Marethari's sacrifice in some increasingly negative light. Regardless of whether or not you think Merrill was in any actual legitimate danger of possession, Marethari definitely thought she was.

She never tried option 1.

She only ever told Merrill to stop working on the Eluvian b/c it's 'evil' and 'belongs to another world'.  Not once did she ever tell Merrill (or Hawke) the supposed truth that Audacity was planning to possess her via the mirror.  

It's 'evil' and 'belongs to another world' aren't rational reasons so why should Merrill listen to them?

I'm not arguing that Marethari didn't think Merrill was in danger or not...I think her reaction to that was a head-scratcher.

[BTG_01]

jlb524 wrote...

bleetman wrote...

Well, yeah. She'd already tried option one over and over and over and gotten nowhere. Option two only came around as a desperate last resort.

It bothers me that people keep seeing fit to paint Marethari's sacrifice in some increasingly negative light. Regardless of whether or not you think Merrill was in any actual legitimate danger of possession, Marethari definitely thought she was.

She never tried option 1.

She only ever told Merrill to stop working on the Eluvian b/c it's 'evil' and 'belongs to another world'.  Not once did she ever tell Merrill (or Hawke) the supposed truth that Audacity was planning to possess her via the mirror.  

It's 'evil' and 'belongs to another world' aren't rational reasons so why should Merrill listen to them?

I'm not arguing that Marethari didn't think Merrill was in danger or not...I think her reaction to that was a head-scratcher.

I may have this wrong, but I think Marethari only learns of the full extent of the demon's plans after she releases it and it possesses her. Before that she only had a general sense of danger regarding the Eluvian, but nothing substantial to back it up. Option 1 wasn't really available to her.

[jlb524]

BTG_01 wrote...
I may have this wrong, but I think Marethari only learns of the full extent of the demon's plans after she releases it and it possesses her. Before that she only had a general sense of danger regarding the Eluvian, but nothing substantial to back it up. Option 1 wasn't really available to her.

I was under the impression that the reason why she agreed to let it possess her was to stop Audacity from moving forward with its plans.  I'm sure she mentions its plan, then tells Merrill the things she considered to do about it (fight it in the Fade...can't do that...banish it...can't do that b/c it will make it stronger...so let it possess me!) which tells me that she knew the plan before deciding how to act on it.

[TMA LIVE]

I don't think she considered the whole demon possession thing, since that wasn't the original reason why she wanted to ditch the mirror in DA:O. And Merrill only met the demon in the statue shortly before DA2. So I imagine "Mirror is bad" really was the original reason. I'm not even sure if Mare was aware the same demon in the statue was dealing with Merrill.

I still consider both characters stupid when it comes to the Mirror.

[jlb524]

I don't consider Merrill stupid about it since she was the one that researched it and knew the risks involved.

You may not agree that the risk was worth the potential pay-off, but I don't see how that makes her stupid.

[TMA LIVE]

If she researched it, she should've had a better plan then "Let Hawke deal with it if it possesses me".

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 25 décembre 2011 - 11:42 .

[TEWR]

Merrill used and extrapolated from all the lore and notes she could find in rebuilding the Eluvian, and then hit a standstill when she couldn't do any more.

The reason she wants to see Audacity is because he really does know stuff about the ancient Elves. The reason she says "If I get possessed, kill me" is because this is a scenario she's never been involved with before. She's never dealt with trapped demons and as such doesn't know what might happen if she talks to him.

The fact that she considered possession still possible when Audacity was trapped in the statue and would continue to be trapped for eternity unless someone freed him -- which Merrill had no intention of doing. Also, this disproves peoples' notion of saying she thinks she won't be possessed -- and asks Hawke to kill her if that happens says that she did have a plan. A good plan considering the information on Audacity that was at hand.


=================================================

As for another reason I believe Marethari was the real target and not Merrill, I remember a post where John Epler said that demons tend to prey on those mages who are either really powerful -- which Marethari is as a Keeper -- or prey on those people with access to the halls of power -- which Marethari is as a Keeper. One that can be very influential at the Arlathvenns.

Merrrill, while being a First, doesn't have that much influence within her clan because she doesn't really have many friends. Add into that they weren't willing to listen to her in regards to the Eluvian and she's not very influential there.

Sad too, considering the First is an influential position in the Dalish community and it's the job of the Dalish to find anything new relating to the Elves and preserve it.

[TMA LIVE]

You're telling me she couldn't do what Morrigan did, and go on a road trip to places that have information, or try to convince Hawke to obtain such information? Because Hawke's willing to raid Orlesian estates just to help strangers. That her best plan was to talk to a demon, and hope it played nice, and not possess her?

Hell, Hawke's rich. Why not hire experts to help her build the thing?

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 26 décembre 2011 - 03:16 .

[TEWR]

The only other people that have knowledge on the Eluvians and actually wanted to learn about them is Ariane's clan, and they could be on the other side of the continent. There's no easy way to find them short of waiting for an Arlathvenn.

The Circle in Ferelden also has a few tomes dealing with knowledge on it, but for all we know the knowledge in these tomes was part of the lore and notes Merrill studied and extrapolated from.

You're assuming you know what information she has and hasn't seen. All we know is that she studied and extrapolated lore and notes -- per a DG post -- in her efforts to build a new Eluvian.

Remember that Kirkwall is a former Tevinter city-state. No doubt Kirkwall has some notes, tomes, and whatever else that hold some knowledge on the Eluvian, and Merrill used these.

[TMA LIVE]

You're assuming an elf who doesn't leave her tribe much before DA2 knows everything, and gained everything that's obtainable.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 26 décembre 2011 - 03:27 .

[TMA LIVE]

Also, remember when it comes to dalish tribes, everything is lost... LOST.

So I think they lack a lot of info that a library in Tevinter may have.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 26 décembre 2011 - 03:32 .

[TEWR]

I never said she had everything. I said she used what scraps of lore and knowledge she had, which means that I acknowledge what she has is only a minor amount of what knowledge is out there.

Secondly, the Tevinter Imperium know nothing of how to build an Eluvian. All they were able to do was unlock its communication powers through blood magic. So far, Morrigan and Merrill have both surpassed the Tevinter Imperium of Old in using the Eluvians.

Not to mention we don't know how Morrigan was able to utilize the portal aspect, or how long she had been working on it. Especially considering she also had to take care of her kid (OGB or not, she still has a kid I believe). Or even how she was able to translate a book written entirely in ancient Elven.

So unless Merrill knew where Ariane was -- doubtful considering the clans make it a point to not know where the other one is unless something dire happens -- the demon was her best bet considering Hawke isn't able to leave Kirkwall for long periods of time due to either the Qunari or Meredith the Fanatical Tyrant.

He goes out for maybe a day or two into the Vimmark Chasms to fight Corypheus, and the Orlesian Chateau Duke Prosper owns is on the Free Marches/Nevarra border IIRC. So that's probably as far as he can actually go.

=================================================

Just had a thought. Merrill isn't able to continue her work on her personal Eluvian in either path. Rivalry has her destroy it while Friendship leads her to leave Kirkwall with pro-mage or pro-Templar Hawke.

So my guess is that when a DAII expansion comes Hawke will go through another Eluvian. Bioware better make Romanced Friendship Merrill have some great moments there and go with Hawke through the Eluvian.

Also, would anyone else like to see more philosophical Merrill? I really enjoyed the banter between her and Anders talking about the certainty and lack thereof in relation to many things.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 26 décembre 2011 - 04:22 .

[jlb524]

TMA LIVE wrote...
You're telling me she couldn't do what Morrigan did, and go on a road trip to places that have information, or try to convince Hawke to obtain such information?

Morrigan had access to Flemeth's knowledge (via her grimoires).  I'm assuming this is how Morrigan even learned what an eluvian was in the first place (which leads me to believe that Flemeth allowed Morrigan to discover this knowledge so Morrigan would eventually find and activate an eluvian because Flemeth is totally playing Morrigan and yanking her by a chain to follow along a certain path.  Flemeth even hints at this in DA2.).

TMA LIVE wrote... 
Because Hawke's willing to raid Orlesian estates just to help strangers. That her best plan was to talk to a demon, and hope it played nice, and not possess her?

I'm not sure how raiding heavily guarded estates is to be considered less dangerous than dealing with one demon.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Just had a thought. Merrill isn't able to continue her work on her personal Eluvian in either path. Rivalry has her destroy it while Friendship leads her to leave Kirkwall with pro-mage or pro-Templar Hawke. 

With a pro-Templar Hawke, she would still stay in Kirkwall for a few years before leaving....I wonder if she worked on the eluvian at all?

Pro-mage Hawke leaves right away so the eluvian is just...sitting there abandoned...until Morrigan steps through it one day XD  

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote... 

So my guess is that when a DAII expansion comes Hawke will go through another Eluvian. Bioware better make Romanced Friendship Merrill have some great moments there and go with Hawke through the Eluvian.

I wouldn't hold my breath...I'd be happy to see any new DA2 content.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote... 

Also, would anyone else like to see more philosophical Merrill? I really enjoyed the banter between her and Anders talking about the certainty and lack thereof in relation to many things.

Yes!

That's one thing I don't like about Merrill's DLC banter to this date...it's focused on the silly stuff too much (though I do like that ofc). 

Modifié par jlb524, 26 décembre 2011 - 05:16 .

[TMA LIVE]

I'm not sure how raiding heavily guarded estates is to be considered less dangerous than dealing with one demon.

One involves people trying to kill you if caught. The other involves Merrill trying to kill you once possessed. Big difference.

[Abispa]

Having played primarily rivalry romances/friendships with Merrill, I've never accepted the notion that Merrill has carefully studied the mirror and knows a great deal about it beyond what the pride demon told her. She confesses several times that she is has been LYING to Hawke about how much she knows and how safe the mirror is, but that she is SURE that she can figure it out.

Hell, even if I give her the knife I STILL get rivalry going with her because all those 10 rivalry points I stack up whenever I tell demons to "stick it" and attack when they are trying to make a deal with me. Tell a demon to "Die, fiend!", tear up a book or two, and start giving her gifts the rivalry is pretty much inevitable.

I am curious how it is so easy for some to assume that Merrill does all this intense and comprehensive research off camera, but that those same players insinuate that the Keeper is an idiot and don't at least consider that MAYBE the Keeper has also done a lot of off camera work investigating the mirror and convincing Merrill of it's dangers.

It would seem that any research Merrill has done on the mirror was using ancient knowledge learned from the Keeper herself and tomes that the Keeper has probably been reading from long before Merrill was born. I don't think the Circles in Ferelden and Kirkwall were all that helpful in allowing the Dalish mage access to their library.

Modifié par Abispa, 26 décembre 2011 - 06:18 .

[TEWR]

With a pro-Templar Hawke, she would still stay in Kirkwall for a few years before leaving....I wonder if she worked on the eluvian at all?

Was Hawke still there for a few more years? I thought he left after a few months at most.

Pro-mage Hawke leaves right away so the eluvian is just...sitting there abandoned...until Morrigan steps through it one day XD

I would just love to see her expression upon finding herself in Merrill's house and looking at the things Merrill has.

Actually, if a DAII expansion does ever come, why do I get the feeling that Morrigan would step through and try to get Hawke to also step through because Morrigan has her own nefarious plan of nefariousness?

Yes!

That's one thing I don't like about Merrill's DLC banter to this date...it's focused on the silly stuff too much (though I do like that ofc).

Yea I love silly Merrill, but it's also awesome to hear more philosophical and profound Merrill. She honestly doesn't get enough of those moments.

One involves people trying to kill you if caught. The other involves Merrill trying to kill you once possessed. Big difference.

One involves you chasing after a creature related to dragons and that spits poison, as well as eventually dealing with an army of Chevaliers and Kossith. Oh and the Ghasts. And the pissy Orlesian who tries to kill you.

The other deals with a possibility coming to fruition, but not something that's certain to happen.

Hell Hawke takes risks all the time in the name of the greater good. He goes down into the Darkspawn infested Deep Roads in the hopes that treasure is down there.

He goes searching for the Wardens in the hopes that they're either in the Deep Roads or that they'll accept the sibling.

[TEWR]

Abispa wrote...

Having played primarily rivalry romances/friendships with Merrill, I've never accepted the notion that Merrill has carefully studied the mirror and knows a great deal about it beyond what the pride demon told her. She confesses several times that she is has been LYING to Hawke about how much she knows and how safe the mirror is, but that she is SURE that she can figure it out.

Merrill knows that they're at least used for communication between other Eluvian holders. That's pretty much all that anyone who has studied the Eluvians knows.

save for Morrigan of course.

Hell, even if I give her the knife I STILL get rivalry going with her because all those 10 rivalry points I stack up whenever I tell demons to "stick it" and attack when they are trying to make a deal with me. Tell a demon to "Die, fiend!" and tear up a book or two and then start giving her gifts the rivalry is pretty much inevitable.

Merrill approves of playing the demon before he can play you, and using them to gain information. She doesn't actually approve of doing what a demon wanted you to do.

So if you played a Hawke who would rather play Torpor and the Hunger Demon in the Deep Roads before that Hawke got played, she'd approve of it.

Just saying "NO!" makes her feel that you wasted an opportunity to learn something more about the situation you're in.

Also, you don't need to take her to destroy the books, as she approves of learning things. Hell, play your cards right and you can max out her friendship in Act 1.

I am curious how it is so easy for some to assume that Merrill does all this intense and comprehensive research off camera, but that those same players insinuate that the Keeper is an idiot and don't at least consider that MAYBE the Keeper has also done a lot of off camera work investigating the mirror and convincing Merrill of it's dangers.

The Keeper made it a point to say that all Eluvians should be left to the past and called them evil. She made it a point to say she wanted nothing to do with them. EVER.

Also DG said Merrill did, so whether you believe it or not Merrill did research them.

It would seem that any research Merrill has done on the mirror was using ancient knowledge learned from the Keeper herself and tomes that the Keeper has probably been reading from long before Merrill was born. I don't the Circles in Ferelden and Kirkwall were all that helpful in allowing the Dalish mage access to their library.

Who says Merrill had to use the Circle in Kirkwall? Kirkwall's tomes are not strictly limited to the Circle. The Viscount's Keep probably has a whole library itself.

And even if it was in the Circle, by Act 2 and Act 3 Hawke could probably get her inside there.

And if the tomes did come from the Keeper, then that means that the Keeper doesn't have them anymore, so she couldn't have done any research on them.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 26 décembre 2011 - 06:25 .

[jlb524]

TMA LIVE wrote...

I'm not sure how raiding heavily guarded estates is to be considered less dangerous than dealing with one demon.

One involves people trying to kill you if caught. The other involves Merrill trying to kill you once possessed. Big difference.

Both could end with Hawke/Merrill dead.

I just don't understand the attitude that it's perfectly okay to place Merrill in mortal danger almost daily by taking her along on Hawke's quests but the first time any danger could result from something she wants to do this raises a red flag.

[Ravensword]

So does the Eluvian in Merrill's house actually pose any sort of danger?

[TEWR]

Nope. It's completely safe.