17176 réponses à ce sujet

[Quinnzel]

Unless it falls on somebody that is.

[Knight of Dane]

My Hawke made sure to tie a rope around it and nail it to the wall.

Can't have Merrill become goo when she's chanting in front of it.

[Ravensword]

So, the Eluvian is some sort of pseudo-MacGuffin then. Good to know.

[congealeddgtllvr]

The eluvian is not completely safe. It is an ancient magical artifact from a lost civilization that has been corrupted by an unknown force. Believing Merrill could know everything there is to know about it from what limited resources she has is the definition of foolishness. It could still be a danger, especially while it is being experimented on and repaired. Merrill admits that the mirror, working with a demon, and using blood magic to repair it are dangerous several times.

I don't have a problem with people saying they trust Merrill to repair it safely. People who say that there is no risk at all are just not paying attention, or else working way too hard to convince themselves.

[TMA LIVE]

jlb524 wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

I'm not sure how raiding heavily guarded estates is to be considered less dangerous than dealing with one demon.

One involves people trying to kill you if caught. The other involves Merrill trying to kill you once possessed. Big difference.

Both could end with Hawke/Merrill dead.

I just don't understand the attitude that it's perfectly okay to place Merrill in mortal danger almost daily by taking her along on Hawke's quests but the first time any danger could result from something she wants to do this raises a red flag.

"Hawke and Merrill" beat dudes up like they're meat pies that exploded.

Merrill by herself possibly getting possessed is a different story. She didn't seem to have any other solution then "Hopefully it doesn't possess me. If it does, please kill me". Nor can Hawke's weapon stands a chances until it actually possesses her. Or someone. Unless you're in the fade against that thing.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 27 décembre 2011 - 06:16 .

[TEWR]

I'm sure if the demon did try to possess Merrill, it would be painfully obvious just like Kitty's attempt to possess whats-her-name was painfully obvious.

And the weapons would be easily effective against the demon if that's how it was going to happen.

[TEWR]

congealeddgtllvr wrote...

The eluvian is not completely safe. It is an ancient magical artifact from a lost civilization that has been corrupted by an unknown force.

 
1) The corruption was due to the taint.
2) Merrill cleansed it of the taint using blood magic to amplify the healing spells Marethari taught her -- which were able to combat the taint in Mahariel without the aid of lyrium or blood magic -- and Merrill goes 7 years without being tainted.

Believing Merrill could know everything there is to know about it from what limited resources she has is the definition of foolishness. It could still be a danger, especially while it is being experimented on and repaired. Merrill admits that the mirror, working with a demon, and using blood magic to repair it are dangerous several times.

Merrill doesn't say the mirror is dangerous. She says it's not dangerous in at least two instances: banter with Aveline and the beginning of her Act 2 quest. From what I've seen, the only time she actually used blood magic on the mirror was to cleanse it, while the rest was simply building a new Eluvian.

And she never actually worked with Audacity. She's only met him a total of 3 times. The first with Marethari, the second to learn blood magic, and the third when Marethari freed the thing. She makes it clear in her Act 3 quest that she's tried to re-establish contact with the demon but he wasn't answering.

Not to mention if the Eluvians were so dangerous, the one Morrigan got working through use of an ancient Elven-scripted tome should've been dangerous as well. Considering she felt comfortable tossing her 1.5-2.0 year old (OGB) child that has had no training whatsoever through the thing to the other side -- as well as going through herself, possibly alongside the Warden -- that tells me that the Eluvians are safe.

I don't have a problem with people saying they trust Merrill to repair it safely. People who say that there is no risk at all are just not paying attention, or else working way too hard to convince themselves.

There's enough evidence in both games to point to the Eluvians being safe, so I am in fact paying attention.

[congealeddgtllvr]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
1) The corruption was due to the taint.

My point was, how much do we know about "the taint"?  

Merrill doesn't say the mirror is dangerous.

"It's a Keeper's job to remember, even the dangerous things."
"It is a risk, but if it gives us even a fragment of what we've lost, it's worth it."

There's enough evidence in both games to point to the Eluvians being safe

This is all meta-knowledge that couldn't factor into Hawke's decisions.  More importantly, it doesn't indicate that Eluvians are safe.  It just shows that they can be experimented on safely if one is careful.  Merrill is clearly taking a risk experimenting on it.  

EDIT:

I'm sure if a demon tried to possess Merrill

It's the fact that you're "sure" of anything when it comes to spirits that lends your arguments zero credibility.  

Modifié par congealeddgtllvr, 27 décembre 2011 - 07:46 .

[TEWR]

congealeddgtllvr wrote...


My point was, how much do we know about "the taint"?  

We know enough about it to know that it's detrimental to Thedas' life, sustains the Darkspawn and the Grey Wardens when they reach their Calling, have its effects prolonged in living beings through both the Joining and just regular manipulation of blood through blood magic, and can be cleansed in inanimate objects.

"It's a Keeper's job to remember, even the dangerous things."

Doesn't directly say that the mirror is among the dangerous things.

"It is a risk, but if it gives us even a fragment of what we've lost, it's worth it."

She says "It is a sacrifice", not "it is a risk".

This is all meta-knowledge that couldn't factor into Hawke's decisions.  More importantly, it doesn't indicate that Eluvians are safe.  It just shows that they can be experimented on safely if one is careful.  Merrill is clearly taking a risk experimenting on it.  

No, but it can factor into the player's discussions on here, which was the crux of my point.

Besides, the evidence within the game is plain as day. Merrill studies all manner of possible lore and research regarding the Eluvians while Marethari does things that A) make no sense because it operates off of flawed logic, weaken her credibility to Hawke, C) says the Eluvians are evil, that she wouldn't have anything to do with them, and should be forgotten.

oh and D) being that she only tells Merrill of the demon's plan when she's possessed by a demon which makes her a hypocrite because she told Merrill not to trust the demon but she herself did assuming that's the source of the knowledge. Assuming that it's just her assumptions, then this also makes her unreliable because she said she didn't want anything to do with the Eluvians, which extends to knowledge.

Or finally, assuming that she just let the demon possess her, it could just be a case of the Pride Demon trying to get under Merrill's skin

Seems clear to me who is right. It's Merrill.

It's the fact that you're "sure" of anything when it comes to spirits that lends your arguments zero credibility.  

Ah, I didn't realize that everything I've said regarding the Eluvians and Audacity suddenly gets thrown out the window simply because you demand it.

Pride Demons and Desire Demons are the most powerful of their kind, and Kitty made it painfully obvious she was going to try to possess whats-her-name. I don't mean when she said "I want to have this child". I mean when you say she can't have her.

Then there's Torpor the Sloth demon who also made it painfully obvious in his attempt to Feynriel that he was trying to access his mind.

That's two instances of demons doing painfully obvious things when they try to possess someone.

That's strong enough evidence for me to conclude that demons make it painfully obvious when they try to possess someone.

Not to mention when a demon tries to forcibly possess someone -- as in Uldred's case when a Pride Demon possessed him -- the possessed person screamed out in pain. Uldred screamed and Niall said that when he stopped he was no longer there.

So possession is painful, which would make it painfully obvious if Merrill was going to be possessed. And Merrill tells an aggressive Hawke she has no intention of freeing Audacity. So were Merrill to be possessed, it would be through forcible means and not through a willing merging.

Now, do my arguments still have zero credibility?

And how many times did I say painfully obvious?

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 27 décembre 2011 - 10:18 .

[congealeddgtllvr]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

"It's a Keeper's job to remember, even the dangerous things."

Doesn't directly say that the mirror is among the dangerous things.

It is obvious from the context of that conversation that she is referring to the eluvian.  You are working too hard to convince yourself otherwise.  

Besides, the evidence within the game is plain as day. Merrill studies all manner of possible lore and research regarding the Eluvians while Marethari does things that A) make no sense because it operates off of flawed logic and weaken her credibility to Hawke.  

There is no evidence that the eluvian is safe, just that Merrill thinks she can repair it safely after doing her research.  Merrill thinks she can fix it =/= safe.  Like I said before, it's a matter of trusting Merrill.  

Now, do my arguments still have zero credibility?

Yes, because you are ignoring all the other times in the lore when an attempt at demonic possession is much more subtle.  "Mouse" in the Circle Mage origin for one.  

EDIT:
I also think Merrill is exactly the type of person who would fall for Mouse's trickery.  She would desperately want to help the poor, poor guy.  

Modifié par congealeddgtllvr, 27 décembre 2011 - 10:25 .

[TEWR]

congealeddgtllvr wrote...

It is obvious from the context of that conversation that she is referring to the eluvian.  You are working too hard to convince yourself otherwise.  

I'd like a link to where she said it so I can look at the context of it myself. I forget who she said it to and when.

Yes, because you are ignoring all the other times in the lore when an attempt at demonic possession is much more subtle.  "Mouse" in the Circle Mage origin for one.  

Mouse tried to have the Mage Warden willingly accept a possession. I have already showed that Merrill would neither willingly release Audacity or let him possess her.

EDIT:
I also think Merrill is exactly the type of person who would fall for Mouse's trickery.  She would desperately want to help the poor, poor guy.  

Merrill's not an idiot. Mouse said some things that really struck me as odd when I played the Mage Origin -- in that they conflicted with other information given and made no sense -- and she's able to detect the scent of demons because she's a blood mage.

[congealeddgtllvr]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

congealeddgtllvr wrote...

It is obvious from the context of that conversation that she is referring to the eluvian.  You are working too hard to convince yourself otherwise.  

I'd like a link to where she said it so I can look at the context of it myself. I forget who she said it to and when.

www.youtube.com/watch

It's in reference to a conversation she had with Marethari.  She is clearly talking about the Eluvian.

Don't get the impression I like Marethari or think she is intelligent.  But not liking her does not mean I have to side with Merrill either.  I am always perplexed when people feel it's one or the other.  

As far as I am concerned, there is no where near enough evidence for me to feel like it's perfectly safe for Merrill to be fixing the eluvian in the middle of the Kirkwall alienage.  That's all it comes down to.  

Mouse tried to have the Mage Warden willingly accept a possession. I have already showed that Merrill would neither willingly release Audacity or let him possess her.

My original point was that spirits are in fact very unpredictable and diverse and whenever someone says they are sure a spirit is going to do this or that I reflexively roll my eyes.  I think it is entirely plausible that Audacity could use some subtle method to influence Merrill that she is not expecting and people who say this is out of the question entirely because they know all there is to know about the subject are not likely to change my mind.  

Modifié par congealeddgtllvr, 27 décembre 2011 - 10:50 .

[Abispa]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Besides, the evidence within the game is plain as day. Merrill studies all manner of possible lore and research regarding the Eluvians while Marethari does things that A) make no sense because it operates off of flawed logic, weaken her credibility to Hawke, C) says the Eluvians are evil, that she wouldn't have anything to do with them, and should be forgotten.

Plain as day? As in Merrill ADMITTING THAT SHE'S LYING ABOUT HOW SAFE THE ELUVIAN IS (if you take the rivalry)? She says she's sure she'll figure it out. With that admission just about your entire argument falls apart since you have only her word that she's done all this in depth research you keep talking about.

In two games (plus DLC) we've seen the mirror do three things: 1) be corrupted by and spread the blight, 2) allow Morrigan to teleport "beyond the fade," and 3) break when you hit it very hard. Everything else Merrill says she learned by all this never depicted in game "research" that it is an ancient communication device. She offers no tomes of knowledge for Hawke to view (like the Warden was able to examine in "Witch Hunt"), only mentions a "spirit" that helped her. She doesn't mention that it's a pride demon either, meaing that she is 1) ignorant of that fact and calling her expertise into question, or 2) she is, again, lying (an ommission of important facts is STILL a lie) to Hawke.

Also, how do you fix a magic piece of glass (I assume it's glass) with an ancient carving tool? Even Merrill doesn't seem sure about this, which only adds to the sense that she's grasping at straws.

Hawke is presented with choice. One, believe that while Merrill admits to lying, grasps at straws,  takes two seconds to betray him/her in the Fade, and is given a cryptic "eyes shut" warning by Flemeth; she will eventually figure out how to work the mirror safely and somehow (?) save her people. Or two, believe the Keeper.

[bleetman]

She's a bit inconsistent when it comes to the mirror and just whether or not it represents an actual danger in of itself, I thought. I mean, aside from that time she assures Aveline it's no danger when pressed on the subject, I don't really remember a moment when she outright says 'this thing is not dangerous'. There's plenty of reference to what's she's doing to restore it being dangerous, but that's not exactly the same thing. I don't much buy into the idea that she'd be perfectly capable of manipulating a pride demon into giving her what she wants without consequence, and I don't exactly get the impression that she does either. She certainly doesn't by the time she's into act three. Presumably her original plan of "get blood magic, cleanse mirror, fix mirror, ????, everything will be alright again' has fallen apart a little by then. I don't think she ever really intended to consult Audacity again. But, like I said, that's not the same as saying the mirror itself is a danger.

But then she comes out with lines like "It's better if... some things stay away from this house", and it all gets a bit muddling.

[Abispa]

congealeddgtllvr wrote...

Mouse tried to have the Mage Warden willingly accept a possession. I have already showed that Merrill would neither willingly release Audacity or let him possess her.

My original point was that spirits are in fact very unpredictable and diverse and whenever someone says they are sure a spirit is going to do this or that I reflexively roll my eyes.  I think it is entirely plausible that Audacity could use some subtle method to influence Merrill that she is not expecting and people who say this is out of the question entirely because they know all there is to know about the subject are not likely to change my mind.

1) Then why have Hawke come along to kill her in case she does wind up being an abomination? Merrill herself admits that it is a possibility.

2) Audacity doesn't have to be subtle, he's a pride demon. Hawke's journey into the fade demonstrates that if Merrill is in your party, she will betray you instantly EVEN THOUGH SHE KNOWS BETTER. It seems that pride demons know how to "pull straight from her heart," by promising her to become the savior of her people and scion of the Dalish. And that offer was no where near subtle, it reeked of "mwa ha ha ha" evil demon promise.

[congealeddgtllvr]

bleetman wrote...
But then she comes out with lines like "It's better if... some things stay away from this house", and it all gets a bit muddling.

You don't understand.  There is no proof that she is referencing the mirror in that quote.  

Abispa wrote...
Hawke's journey into the fade demonstrates that if Merrill is in your party, she will betray you instantly EVEN THOUGH SHE KNOWS BETTER.  

You don't understand.  That part of the game was just the writers "railroading the companions into betraying Hawke" and therefore "doesn't count."  

Modifié par congealeddgtllvr, 27 décembre 2011 - 11:25 .

[jlb524]

The mirror would potentially be dangerous if it worked but not because of the taint (that's gone).  It's an ancient magical artifact that no one knows everything about.  I got the impression that Merrill felt it was dangerous because of that reason (she thinks all magic is dangerous) and not because of the taint (because she cleansed that).

TMA LIVE wrote...
"Hawke and Merrill" beat dudes up like they're meat pies that exploded.

They also face plenty of demons and don't ever get possessed.  So, by that logic...it's totally cool!

TMA LIVE wrote... 
Merrill by herself possibly getting possessed is a different story. She didn't seem to have any other solution then "Hopefully it doesn't possess me. If it does, please kill me". Nor can Hawke's weapon stands a chances until it actually possesses her. Or someone. Unless you're in the fade against that thing.

Hmm..that could have been an interesting quest...Hawke braving the Fade to save a demon possessed Merrill...ah well.

Modifié par jlb524, 27 décembre 2011 - 11:41 .

[Abispa]

congealeddgtllvr wrote...

bleetman wrote...
But then she comes out with lines like "It's better if... some things stay away from this house", and it all gets a bit muddling.

You don't understand.  There is no proof that she is referencing the mirror in that quote.  

Abispa wrote...
Hawke's journey into the fade demonstrates that if Merrill is in your party, she will betray you instantly EVEN THOUGH SHE KNOWS BETTER.  

You don't understand.  That part of the game was just the writers "railroading the companions into betraying Hawke" and therefore "doesn't count."  

Wow, I know this is satire, but it's so life-like. The only thing missing is you accusing me of being a sadist.

[bleetman]

Nevermind.

Modifié par bleetman, 27 décembre 2011 - 11:41 .

[Abispa]

jlb524 wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...
"Hawke and Merrill" beat dudes up like they're meat pies that exploded.

They also face plenty of demons and don't ever get possessed.  So, by that logic...it's totally cool!

It is cool, you two! If there was one thing I really dug about Merrill was her ability to make more red fireworks than any other mage in the game! Damn that patch for taking away so much of her magic!

[jlb524]

Abispa wrote...

It is cool, you two! If there was one thing I really dug about Merrill was her ability to make more red fireworks than any other mage in the game! Damn that patch for taking away so much of her magic!

What did the patch affect for you?

I have so many mods I don't know what normal gameplay is supposed to be anymore.

[Abispa]

Sadly, enemies no longer explode automatically when Hawke and Merrill look at them sternly.

[jlb524]

Ah yeah...that was the best passive ability ever. A bit OP though.

[TEWR]

Abispa wrote...


Plain as day? As in Merrill ADMITTING THAT SHE'S LYING ABOUT HOW SAFE THE ELUVIAN IS (if you take the rivalry)? She says she's sure she'll figure it out. With that admission just about your entire argument falls apart since you have only her word that she's done all this in depth research you keep talking about.

Bah I see Rivalry as making her feel guilty about everything and she doesn't know what to believe because everyone is against her working on the Eluvian. I won't ever do it, as it makes her feel like she can't trust anyone in the world other than herself.

In two games (plus DLC) we've seen the mirror do three things: 1) be corrupted by and spread the blight, 2) allow Morrigan to teleport "beyond the fade," and 3) break when you hit it very hard. Everything else Merrill says she learned by all this never depicted in game "research" that it is an ancient communication device.

Finn corroborates it. He says the Tevinters were only able to use them as communication devices, and I'm fairly certain Duncan may have said something similar.

So it can't be dismissed if at least two people who haven't ever met before have said it.  

She offers no tomes of knowledge for Hawke to view (like the Warden was able to examine in "Witch Hunt"), only mentions a "spirit" that helped her. She doesn't mention that it's a pride demon either, meaing that she is 1) ignorant of that fact and calling her expertise into question, or 2) she is, again, lying (an ommission of important facts is STILL a lie) to Hawke.

David Gaider explained that Spirits and Demons are all spirits, but do have a differentiation. If you look at the surtitles, spirit is spelled without the capital "S", meaning she's not ignoring that Audacity is a demon.

Also, how do you fix a magic piece of glass (I assume it's glass) with an ancient carving tool? Even Merrill doesn't seem sure about this, which only adds to the sense that she's grasping at straws.

This... actually made me wonder. You can clearly see cracks in the mirror. I assume she used it to whittle down glass to fit and then used her own magic to maybe meld all the pieces together.

That's my theory anyway. And hey, it did work!

Hawke is presented with choice. One, believe that while Merrill admits to lying, grasps at straws,  takes two seconds to betray him/her in the Fade, and is given a cryptic "eyes shut" warning by Flemeth; she will eventually figure out how to work the mirror safely and somehow (?) save her people. Or two, believe the Keeper.

Oh sure, let's call out Merrill for her betrayal! While we're at it, let's say that Aveline doesn't truly love Donnic because she wants her dead husband Wesley back! Or while we're at it, let's say that Varric would sell out his friends for revenge against the person who sold him out! Or hey, let's say that Fenris would stoop to the level of the magisters he so fervently hates because he's so intent on revenge!

I could go on an on. Night Terrors has both demons mind control the companions and forces them to betray Hawke by doing things that directly go against their character.

Merrill would never actually work with a demon. She's all about playing demons before they can play you. She would never let one possess her. Despite what many think, she is not an idiot. She's actually very astute and philosophical.

Likewise, Aveline acknowledges that Wesley's dead and she knows nothing can change that. Yet she sides with the Desire demon anyway! This goes directly against what she states are the true facts about her husband Wesley!

Then for Varric, not only is he a Dwarf -- and is thus naturally cut off from the Fade and resistant to magic -- but he admits that he would never side with a demon over Hawke while conscious and sober (he was joking, but the point is he gave Hawke a vow). Varric takes pride in the fact that he's the good brother, the one that wouldn't ever sell out his friends or family for whatever reason. Yet I don't see anyone using his betrayal against anything he does. Why? Because his betrayal in the Fade goes directly against his character.

Fenris has experience amongst the Tevinter Magisters and abhors not only magic but any mage that works with a demon. And the demon promised him the ability to be a mage on par with the Magisters. This goes directly against his character. Yet people don't slander Fenris with this betrayal to back up their claims.

Hell for further evidence, look at Caress! Caress used the desire of the Harimann family to manipulate them and mind control them! Caress herself says she could plant desire in a person if she wanted to, but it's far easier to use existing desire to control a person. Who's to say that Wryme didn't plant pride in the companions and then manipulated them into siding with him?

Again, I could go on and on. Oh, but I guess because Merrill's a mage her betrayal automatically goes against her. Should she have maybe recognized that something was off or at least tried to refuse the demon? Maybe, but the demon did mind control her into doing what it wanted by using whatever pride she held during Act II (which by Act III, has severely diminished)

Flemeth's comment could mean anything. It could be just as much a warning as it could be advice in helping her restore the Eluvian.

And honestly, I'd grasp at whatever straws I could think of if my entire culture and knowledge about things was wiped away from history by people. And if that meant going to meet with a demon that was trapped within a statue for centuries and would continue to be trapped for even more centuries unless someone freed it, I'd put it on my list.

Not as an immediate thing to do, but as a last possible resort like Merrill did.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 28 décembre 2011 - 12:37 .

[bleetman]

Merrill being inconsistent about the dangers and doubtful in her ability to navigate them without dying in the process isn't exactly limited to the rivalry path. She does it either way. I'd actually say she does it more on the friendship path, but hey.

Finn corroborates it. He says the Tevinters were only able to use them as communication devices, and I'm fairly certain Duncan may have said something similar.

So it can't be dismissed if at least two people who haven't ever met before have said it.  

I don't exactly equate 'what the Tevinters could use them for' with 'the only thing they were capable of being used for'. I don't imagine the Arlathan elves were particularly forthcoming on that point. I would've thought Morrigan walking through one into who knows where would make for a pretty effective demonstration that they're more than just magical radios.

Modifié par bleetman, 28 décembre 2011 - 12:38 .