Aller au contenu

Photo

Merrill - She's a Keeper!


17176 réponses à ce sujet

#16526
TEWR

TEWR
  • Members
  • 16 989 messages
Crap, hope my last post doesn't get missed since it's on the bottom of the page.

congealeddgtllvr wrote...

www.youtube.com/watch

It's in reference to a conversation she had with Marethari.  She is clearly talking about the Eluvian.


Curse my selective eidetic memory! Some things I can remember in perfect detailed form while others I can't. I wanted to say something about this, but I was so intent on my other post earlier that I forgot.

I think what I wanted to say was that the dangerous thing she was referring to might not have been the mirror itself, but the fact that the mirror was tainted.

Like despite the fact that it was tainted and dangerous at the time, the Eluvian still needed to be studied and researched. So ipso facto she needed to remember and study the (at that time) dangerous thing, because that comment is in direct reference to a conversation she had with Marethari.

The Keeper wanted me to destroy the fragment that I kept. She said our ancestors meant for it to be forgotten. But it's a Keeper's place to remember, even the dangerous things.

I dunno. If someone could maybe understand what I meant better than how I phrased it I'd be happy, but as of now I'll award you this one. Subject to change though if I'm able to phrase it better, but for now you get one point.


Don't get the impression I like Marethari or think she is intelligent.  But not liking her does not mean I have to side with Merrill either.  I am always perplexed when people feel it's one or the other.  


By "one or the other" do you mean "Merrill or Marethari"? Because that's exactly what it is. By saying the mirror is dangerous, you're agreeing with Marethari. By saying "the mirror isn't dangerous" you're agreeing with Merrill.

Besides, I find it more logical that the demon was subtly playing Marethari by using her pride as both a Keeper and mother-figure against her.

Hell she spent 7 years at the base of a mountain where the demon was housed and didn't bother to move her clan away, and she and Merrill were both able to hear it whispering to them in the short story.



My original point was that spirits are in fact very unpredictable and diverse and whenever someone says they are sure a spirit is going to do this or that I reflexively roll my eyes.  I think it is entirely plausible that Audacity could use some subtle method to influence Merrill that she is not expecting and people who say this is out of the question entirely because they know all there is to know about the subject are not likely to change my mind.  



See above.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 28 décembre 2011 - 12:53 .


#16527
TEWR

TEWR
  • Members
  • 16 989 messages

I don't exactly equate 'what the Tevinters could use them for' with 'the only thing they were capable of being used for'. I don't imagine the Arlathan elves were particularly forthcoming on that point. I would've thought Morrigan walking through one into who knows where would make for a pretty effective demonstration that they're more than just magical radios.


I never said they were only able to be communication devices. I just said that there was evidence to support the claim that they were communication devices, because that's all the Tevinters were able to use them for.

Also, if these things could release demons I imagine the Arlathan Elves would've used them against Tevinter and actually held their ground instead of losing so easily.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 28 décembre 2011 - 12:55 .


#16528
congealeddgtllvr

congealeddgtllvr
  • Members
  • 233 messages

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Don't get the impression I like Marethari or think she is intelligent.  But not liking her does not mean I have to side with Merrill either.  I am always perplexed when people feel it's one or the other.  


By "one or the other" do you mean "Merrill or Marethari"? Because that's exactly what it is. By saying the mirror is dangerous, you're agreeing with Marethari. By saying "the mirror isn't dangerous" you're agreeing with Merrill.

*sigh*Merrill thinks the mirror is dangerous.  So by saying the mirror is dangerous, I am agreeing with both Marethari and Merrill.  

My point is that just because I think Marethari is an idiot in a lot of ways does not mean that I think Merrill is A OK to experiment on an ancient artifact in the Kirkwall alienage.  

Besides, I find it more logical that the demon was subtly playing Marethari by using her pride as both a Keeper and mother-figure against her.

Hell she spent 7 years at the base of a mountain where the demon was housed and didn't bother to move her clan away, and she and Merrill were both able to hear it whispering to them in the short story.  

This is exactly what I'm talking about.  I feel the same way about Audacity and Marethari.  This does not negate my original point about the mirror being dangerous, and does not negate the plausibility of him manipulating Merrill as well.  

Modifié par congealeddgtllvr, 28 décembre 2011 - 01:03 .


#16529
jlb524

jlb524
  • Members
  • 19 954 messages

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
By "one or the other" do you mean "Merrill or Marethari"? Because that's exactly what it is. By saying the mirror is dangerous, you're agreeing with Marethari. By saying "the mirror isn't dangerous" you're agreeing with Merrill.


I don't think that's the issue.

The mirror is dangerous because of what it is...an ancient elven artifact of potentially great magical power.  Even if Merrill knows more than anyone else alive about these mirrors, she still doesn't know as much about them as the elves that originally constructed them.

This is why Merrill believes the mirror is dangerous at least.  Marethari is worried about the taint on top of that but Merrill made the mirror 'safe' from that.    The mirror itself (if it would start working) is dangerous because it's magic.  Merrill agrees with this in her speech she gives at the end if Hawke sided with the Templars and Merrill goes with the mages.  So it seems they don't quite agree on why the mirror is dangerous.

Now, the core of the disagreement between Merrill and Marethari is over the question of whether the risk in studying and restoring the mirror is worth any potential gain of knowledge or magical power that may come from the mirror.   Merrill thinks the risk is worth it while Marethari doesn't.

Modifié par jlb524, 28 décembre 2011 - 01:04 .


#16530
jlb524

jlb524
  • Members
  • 19 954 messages
Holy crap, my post is blank....grrrrrrr.

jlb524 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
By "one or the other" do you mean "Merrill or Marethari"? Because that's exactly what it is. By saying the mirror is dangerous, you're agreeing with Marethari. By saying "the mirror isn't dangerous" you're agreeing with Merrill.


I don't think that's the issue.

The mirror is dangerous because of what it is...an ancient elven artifact of potentially great magical power.  Even if Merrill knows more than anyone else alive about these mirrors, she still doesn't know as much about them as the elves that originally constructed them.

This is why Merrill believes the mirror is dangerous at least.  Marethari is worried about the taint on top of that but Merrill made the mirror 'safe' from that.    The mirror itself (if it would start working) is dangerous because it's magic.  Merrill agrees with this in her speech she gives at the end if Hawke sided with the Templars and Merrill goes with the mages.  So it seems they don't quite agree on why the mirror is dangerous.

Now, the core of the disagreement between Merrill and Marethari is over the question of whether the risk in studying and restoring the mirror is worth any potential gain of knowledge or magical power that may come from the mirror.   Merrill thinks the risk is worth it while Marethari doesn't.


...but I can quote it....there it is ^^

Modifié par jlb524, 28 décembre 2011 - 01:05 .


#16531
Abispa

Abispa
  • Members
  • 3 465 messages
Posted Image

#16532
jlb524

jlb524
  • Members
  • 19 954 messages
Oh, and here's the link to the vid where Merrill says that all magic is dangerous.

Because my previous post is all messed up and the link isn't working.

#16533
TEWR

TEWR
  • Members
  • 16 989 messages
So, would it be more accurate to say that by saying it's too dangerous, you're saying the risks outweigh the potential rewards?

EDIT: I guess it is. jlb said it too Posted Image

This is exactly what I'm talking about.  I feel the same way about Audacity and Marethari.  This does not negate my original point about the mirror being dangerous, and does not negate the plausibility of him manipulating Merrill as well.  



I just don't see it as something that would happen: Audacity manipulating Merrill that is. I don't think Merrill was ever the focus of his attention. I just doubt he ever wanted her.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 28 décembre 2011 - 01:14 .


#16534
Abispa

Abispa
  • Members
  • 3 465 messages
All magic is dangerous (unless used by the Warden or Hawke). I just believe that the game demonstrates many times over, whether we like it or not, that Merrill and magic mirrors are REALLY dangerous. The Ethereal Writer Redux is the one trying to convince everyone that it's "a-okay" when it comes to Merrill.

#16535
TEWR

TEWR
  • Members
  • 16 989 messages
I have this vague feeling that weeks ago I may have said something about the Eluvian being risky but still worth investigating, and now today I'm saying it's safe.

Makes me feel.... something.

Meh, either way I'm acknowledging what I may have said a few weeks ago.

#16536
congealeddgtllvr

congealeddgtllvr
  • Members
  • 233 messages

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

So, would it be more accurate to say that by saying it's too dangerous, you're saying the risks outweigh the potential rewards?

Since the mirror is inherently potentially dangerous, yes.  ;)

#16537
TEWR

TEWR
  • Members
  • 16 989 messages
Nevertheless, I don't think they're as dangerous as Marethari makes them out to be.

#16538
jlb524

jlb524
  • Members
  • 19 954 messages
I personally just cannot justify Hawke saying 'no' to Merrill's one crazy/risky/potentially dangerous endeavor when Hawke is doing crazy/risky/potentially dangerous stuff all the time. If Merrill cares about Hawke in any way, I'd imagine she would worry about Hawke's safety..a lot. "Hey babe, I'm going to duel the Arishok now..I'll be home for dinner if I don't die."

I mean, Hawke follows some elven assassin to a heavily guarded fortress in the middle of nowhere in order to steal a jewel while having to kill wyverns and crap along the way.

And why does Hawke do it? For the lulz? Boredom? Because Tallis got her nose?

#16539
congealeddgtllvr

congealeddgtllvr
  • Members
  • 233 messages

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Nevertheless, I don't think they're as dangerous as Marethari makes them out to be.


There was an element of Marethari being controlling and not being able to let go, and I agree that Audacity was manipulating her.  If she wanted me to respect her leadership capabilities she'd have to get her clan the h*** away from Sundermount and Kirkwall more or less right after the "debt" to Flemeth was repaid.  

#16540
Abispa

Abispa
  • Members
  • 3 465 messages

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I just don't see it as something that would happen: Audacity manipulating Merrill that is. I don't think Merrill was ever the focus of his attention. I just doubt he ever wanted her.


You're right. He doesn't want the exiled First with all the mirror's pieces, and who wants nothing more than to rebuild it at almost any cost. He wants to be trapped inside the Keeper, staring at a campfire till she decides to reveal her abomination to Hawke, the world famous slayer of Qunari, demons, and high dragons.

Not that I'm saying the Keeper's plan was well designed or well executed, in fact it was DA2 bad-guy stupid, but it does nothing to increase Merrill's credibility nor minimize the Keeper's willingness to sacrifice herself for the woman she considers her daughter. I could just as easily argue that the Keeper was waiting to see if she or Hawke could convince Merrill to give up. Then she could allow one of the hunters to kill her and she could die in peace knowing Merrill was safe.

If the Keeper was the demon's target, he chose poorly. She doesn't have the pieces to the mirror. She doesn't have the ancient carving knife. Her "power base," and the demon's potential sphere of influence, is dwindling as hunters continue to lose their lives as she stubbornly keeps her clan close to Kirkwall. They have no Halla for milk, transport, or trade. She just stands around the fire, waiting.

When Merrill returns, does the demon take control of the Keeper and sweet talk Merrill into returning, "admitting" that Merrill was right all along, so she could come home, complete the mirror and "save" the Dalish? No. She still tries to save Merrill from her obsession. And when that works, she exposes herself to Hawke and company, whose status (thanks to Varric) as demon & dragon slayers is legendary and she is killed.

#16541
TEWR

TEWR
  • Members
  • 16 989 messages

jlb524 wrote...

I personally just cannot justify Hawke saying 'no' to Merrill's one crazy/risky/potentially dangerous endeavor when Hawke is doing crazy/risky/potentially dangerous stuff all the time. If Merrill cares about Hawke in any way, I'd imagine she would worry about Hawke's safety..a lot. "Hey babe, I'm going to duel the Arishok now..I'll be home for dinner if I don't die."

I mean, Hawke follows some elven assassin to a heavily guarded fortress in the middle of nowhere in order to steal a jewel while having to kill wyverns and crap along the way.

And why does Hawke do it? For the lulz? Boredom? Because Tallis got her nose?



This is a point I made a while ago in a different thread, though I don't think it was regarding Merrill.

Ah, now I remember! It was about me wishing Hawke could've sided with -- and eventually become the Champion/Saviour -- of the Mage Underground.

To quote myself:

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...


Lithuasil wrote...


Making it known or not - any action taken poses a risk,


you could say this about anything the game did really. Hawke fights against the Chantry elements trying to create a war with the Qunari, and could thus be seen as a Qunari sympathizer by more than just the Faithful. He would then be considered a heretic, persecuted, and possibly hunted.

Or how he goes into the Deep Roads and fights a swarm of Darkspawn in the hopes that he'll find treasure.

There's plenty of instances in the game where Hawke takes action that has risk. That's why there are these sayings:

Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Fortune favors the bold

No risk, no reward.


EDIT: for an even better example, look at the American Revolution where the colonies stood up against the British Empire. Should they not have openly defied the British Empire?

EDIT 2: What I'm saying was said best between two nobles in the game:

Noble 1: Nobles protecting mages? That's a recipe for disaster! Why would anyone want to do that?
Noble 2: Why does anyone take risks? To protect an ideal.



EDIT: Hell, to go one further:

Heavy risk, but the priiize....

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 28 décembre 2011 - 01:55 .


#16542
Abispa

Abispa
  • Members
  • 3 465 messages

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I have this vague feeling that weeks ago I may have said something about the Eluvian being risky but still worth investigating, and now today I'm saying it's safe.

Makes me feel.... something.

Meh, either way I'm acknowledging what I may have said a few weeks ago.


The top of page #661. It is possible you may have been sarcastic, but given your stance on Merrill's story it's hard to tell.

#16543
TEWR

TEWR
  • Members
  • 16 989 messages
Not going to address your first two points because I'm starting to get tired and can barely type out what I want to say.

Abispa wrote...


If the Keeper was the demon's target, he chose poorly. She doesn't have the pieces to the mirror. She doesn't have the ancient carving knife. Her "power base," and the demon's potential sphere of influence, is dwindling as hunters continue to lose their lives as she stubbornly keeps her clan close to Kirkwall. They have no Halla for milk, transport, or trade. She just stands around the fire, waiting.


Actually, I think he chose wisely, as far as demons go. Demons prey on both powerful mages -- which Marethari was -- and people that have access to the halls of power -- which Marethari also had. Halls of power meaning her influence not just within her clan, but with all the other clans at the Arlathvenns.

Audacity could've summoned a whole horde of demons and made a Demon-possessed Elven army and then waited until the Arlathvenn to do it to even more Elves.

I'm thinking that this may have actually been his plan. And it could've also been his plan assuming Audacity possessed Marethari at the start of Act 3 and not when one talks to Merrill to begin her quest.


When Merrill returns, does the demon take control of the Keeper and sweet talk Merrill into returning, "admitting" that Merrill was right all along, so she could come home, complete the mirror and "save" the Dalish? No. She still tries to save Merrill from her obsession. And when that works, she exposes herself to Hawke and company, whose status (thanks to Varric) as demon & dragon slayers is legendary and she is killed.



Why would the demon ask a person he cared nothing about to return?

That could've just as easily been the demon talking and not Marethari, trying to get under Merrill's skin. I don't consider it fact, but I do consider it a possibility.

I mean, Abominations don't always sound like Evelina did. Just look at Uldred and the Baroness. They were able to sound normal voiced.

#16544
TEWR

TEWR
  • Members
  • 16 989 messages

Abispa wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I have this vague feeling that weeks ago I may have said something about the Eluvian being risky but still worth investigating, and now today I'm saying it's safe.

Makes me feel.... something.

Meh, either way I'm acknowledging what I may have said a few weeks ago.


The top of page #661. It is possible you may have been sarcastic, but given your stance on Merrill's story it's hard to tell.


I was serious then. But, I think weeks ago I may have said stuff along the lines of "the rewards outweigh the risks" or stuff like that, and now today I'm apparently saying it's completely safe.

Makes me feel like I don't really know my stance I guess, but then again it is hard for me to keep track of every post I make. I wish there was a way for the forumites to see only their posts in a thread.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 28 décembre 2011 - 01:57 .


#16545
jlb524

jlb524
  • Members
  • 19 954 messages

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
I wish there was a way for the forumites to see only their posts in a thread.


Yeah...there's that 'Your posts' option in the search bar at the top but it shows the threads you posted in but won't take you to the actual post you made in that thread.

It's no biggie unless it's a post in a thread like this with hundreds and hundreds of pages.

Abispa wrote...
If the Keeper was the demon's target, he chose poorly. She doesn't have the pieces to the mirror. She doesn't have the ancient carving knife. Her "power base," and the demon's potential sphere of influence, is dwindling as hunters continue to lose their lives as she stubbornly keeps her clan close to Kirkwall. They have no Halla for milk, transport, or trade. She just stands around the fire, waiting.


Would a demon even care about all that stuff?  Or..know about it?

This demon is trapped in a statue...it can sense that there are two mages nearby (Marethari and Merrill) but I don't think it's privy to all the details about each of them.

Marethari doesn't need to have the mirror pieces to get possessed....the demon doesn't need the mirror to get out of the statue...the game proves that.

Modifié par jlb524, 28 décembre 2011 - 02:04 .


#16546
TEWR

TEWR
  • Members
  • 16 989 messages
and it's even worse if you're a regular in those threads with hundreds and hundreds of pages.

#16547
Abispa

Abispa
  • Members
  • 3 465 messages

jlb524 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
I wish there was a way for the forumites to see only their posts in a thread.


Yeah...there's that 'Your posts' option in the search bar at the top but it shows the threads you posted in but won't take you to the actual post you made in that thread.

It's no biggie unless it's a post in a thread like this with hundreds and hundreds of pages.

Abispa wrote...
If the Keeper was the demon's target, he chose poorly. She doesn't have the pieces to the mirror. She doesn't have the ancient carving knife. Her "power base," and the demon's potential sphere of influence, is dwindling as hunters continue to lose their lives as she stubbornly keeps her clan close to Kirkwall. They have no Halla for milk, transport, or trade. She just stands around the fire, waiting.


Would a demon even care about all that stuff?  Or..know about it?

This demon is trapped in a statue...it can sense that there are two mages nearby (Marethari and Merrill) but I don't think it's privy to all the details about each of them.

Marethari doesn't need to have the mirror pieces to get possessed....the demon doesn't need the mirror to get out of the statue...the game proves that.


IF the demon is in control of the Keeper, as is suggested, he KNOWS about Merrill. Yes, he no longer needs the mirror to escape, but the mirror would be the bait he need to reel Merrill into his sphere of influence IF the demon is indeed running things. As the DA:O Circle and the various blood mage groups in Kirkwall demonstrate, they aren't content with simply staying with one mage once they control one, they want to expand their influence and create even more abominations. Only the demons who have possessed non-mages in the games seem content with their single victims, the Templar, Warden commander, and the little girl in DA:O and it's DLCs.

Modifié par Abispa, 28 décembre 2011 - 03:14 .


#16548
ydaraishy

ydaraishy
  • Members
  • 301 messages

jlb524 wrote...
And why does Hawke do it? For the lulz? Boredom? Because Tallis got her nose?


It's a funny meta phenomenon-type deal that I think even gets faintly lampshaded at some point in some DLC (I forget); Hawke does it because _we_ want to do it. It's DLC, we paid for it, hence Hawke wants to do it because we want to get our money's worth. One could then extrapolate that Hawke's got an explorer/extreme curiosity bent and is interested in rare lootz. 

If you want to be totes extreme at RP'ing Hawke, and your Hawke doesn't really like Orlesians or qunari elves, you could buy the DLC and not play it? (Yeah, right :)

(Arguably then, if someone doesn't play DA2, Hawke dies in Lothering?)

Modifié par ydaraishy, 28 décembre 2011 - 03:17 .


#16549
Abispa

Abispa
  • Members
  • 3 465 messages

ydaraishy wrote...

jlb524 wrote...
And why does Hawke do it? For the lulz? Boredom? Because Tallis got her nose?


It's a funny meta phenomenon-type deal that I think even gets faintly lampshaded at some point in some DLC (I forget); Hawke does it because _we_ want to do it. It's DLC, we paid for it, hence Hawke wants to do it because we want to do it because we want to get our money's worth. One could then extrapolate that Hawke's got an explorer/extreme curiosity bent and is interested in rare lootz. 

If you want to be totes extreme at RP'ing Hawke, and your Hawke doesn't really like Orlesians or qunari elves, you could buy the DLC and not play it? (Yeah, right :)

(Arguably then, if someone doesn't play DA2, Hawke dies in Lothering?)


I bet a lot of the raving DA2 critics hope as much, or at least retcon it out of existence.

#16550
ydaraishy

ydaraishy
  • Members
  • 301 messages

Abispa wrote...

I bet a lot of the raving DA2 critics hope as much, or at least retcon it out of existence.


Merrill lives regardless! *evil cackle*