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[Abispa]

ydaraishy wrote...

Abispa wrote...

I bet a lot of the raving DA2 critics hope as much, or at least retcon it out of existence.

Merrill lives regardless! *evil cackle*

Sadly, not in my second play-through (unintended -- not enough points before siding with Templars). Don't worry, I've been careful since then.

[jlb524]

Abispa wrote...
IF the demon is in control of the Keeper, as is suggested, he KNOWS about Merrill. Yes, he no longer needs the mirror to escape, but the mirror would be the bait he need to reel Merrill into his sphere of influence IF the demon is indeed running things. As the DA:O Circle and the various blood mage groups in Kirkwall demonstrate, they aren't content with simply staying with one mage once they control one, they want to expand their influence and create even more abominations. Only the demons who have possessed non-mages in the games seem content with their single victims, the Templar, Warden commander, and the little girl in DA:O and it's DLCs.

Right, but then why didn't the demon try to turn Merrill into an abomination (and possibly a mage Hawke as well) and instead tried to kill her?

There would also have been at least one more mage in the clan (Merrill's replacement as First)...I don't believe they ever became possessed.

I also don't think the demon was 100% in control.  The abomination isn't ever 'the demon' or 'Marethari'....it's something new that is a combination of those two (see...Anders/Justice).  

ydaraishy wrote...
One could then extrapolate that Hawke's got an explorer/extreme curiosity bent and is interested in rare lootz. 

My Hawke loves the thrill of adventure!

It's thrilling.

Abispa wrote...
Sadly, not in my second play-through (unintended -- not enough points before siding with Templars). Don't worry, I've been careful since then.

Oh so you actually got to see the dialog I linked earlier?

I think it's really good but I have never seen it in game.

Modifié par jlb524, 28 décembre 2011 - 03:25 .

[Abispa]

jlb524 wrote...

Abispa wrote...
IF the demon is in control of the Keeper, as is suggested, he KNOWS about Merrill. Yes, he no longer needs the mirror to escape, but the mirror would be the bait he need to reel Merrill into his sphere of influence IF the demon is indeed running things. As the DA:O Circle and the various blood mage groups in Kirkwall demonstrate, they aren't content with simply staying with one mage once they control one, they want to expand their influence and create even more abominations. Only the demons who have possessed non-mages in the games seem content with their single victims, the Templar, Warden commander, and the little girl in DA:O and it's DLCs.

Right, but then why didn't the demon try to turn Merrill into an abomination (and possibly a mage Hawke as well) and instead tried to kill her?

There would also have been at least one more mage in the clan (Merrill's replacement as First)...I don't believe they ever became possessed.

I also don't think the demon was 100% in control.  The abomination isn't ever 'the demon' or 'Marethari'....it's something new that is a combination of those two (see...Anders/Justice).  

ydaraishy wrote...
One could then extrapolate that Hawke's got an explorer/extreme curiosity bent and is interested in rare lootz. 

My Hawke loves the thrill of adventure!

It's thrilling.

THAT is the reason I don't buy "the pride demon REALLY wanted the Keeper all along" argument. HE didn't reveal himself, the Keeper revealed him. Her trapping him within her body made him vulnerable and mortal. While I agree it wasn't brilliant strategy, I've never doubted that her version of what happened, nor why she did it.

[jlb524]

But it's not really Marethari speaking...or the demon.

Let's call it, "Marethacity". It's some new entity that's not quite like the pair that created it.

I'm not sure about the 'vulnerable and mortal' part. Killing an abomination simply releases the demon back into the Fade...which is better than being stuck in a statue....all alone...

So possessing a mage was Audacity's ticket to getting out of that statue. Even if things eventually go bad for the abomination it creates, it will end up going back 'home' to the Fade. Which is why her decision to allow it to possess her doesn't make sense to me.

[Abispa]

jlb524 wrote...

So possessing a mage was Audacity's ticket to getting out of that statue. Even if things eventually go bad for the abomination it creates, it will end up going back 'home' to the Fade. Which is why her decision to allow it to possess her doesn't make sense to me.

There were three ways for the Keeper to die: 1) Merrill and Hawke are forced to kill her and the demon is exposed forcing Merrill to live with the guilt of being instrumental in her demise (bad); 2) Merrill comes back, agrees to give up on the mirror on her own or with Hawke's guidance, and the Keeper can have a heart felt chat and expose herself in a controlled setting content that Merrill came the the right conclusion (still crappy, but better); or 3) some unforseen death occurs to the Keeper and the demon goes back to the fade where it can once again try to get ahold of Merrill (very, very, bad and a reason why this wasn't too smart to begin with). If one of the first two happens, Merrill is safe. If the third happens, the status quo remains.

[jlb524]

But I want Marethari to go to Merrill (and maybe Hawke) and tell her the demons plan before getting possessed.

She didn't do that...she just went and got possessed. That's what I don't understand.

[FiliusMartis]

I might have mentioned this already but eek 663 pages...

Once possessed, Marethari states that the demon's plan was to use the mirror to enter the world. My primary issue with this is that the source of that information is never revealed. The way I see it there are three possibilities:
1. Marethari has no information, just her opinion
2. Audacity told Marethari
3. Marethari discovered the information via merging with Audacity

The last one doesn't make much sense because it doesn't account for why she allowed Audacity to possess her in the first place. The problem with the others is that they leave no excuse as to why Marethari didn't tell Merrill or Hawke; this is especially troubling if you believe number 2 to be the case. I suppose it could be some combination of these things, but really why not say something?

Something it doesn't seem like people are considering is Audacity's goal(s). Yes, it's a pride demon, but demons/spirits are all individuals. Consider this, unless Marethari has a special teleporting spell, she went up the mountain after Hawke and Merrill. When they got there, Audacity was already gone. I suppose you could think that Marethari summoned it down to her and then walked up the mountain, but that doesnt' seem to fit so well. The most likely scenario is that Marethari became possessed some time ago and Audacity has been wandering around the camp in her body. This also explains why Audacity is no longer answering Merrill's call. Granting that, Audacity could have been looking at Marethari's life and decided he didn't want it, which accounts for the revelation on the mountaintop.

I had more points, but it's 5:30 in the morning and just durr.

[bleetman]

Marethari sets off ahead of Hawke and Merrill if you speak to her before heading up the mountain herself. If not, it seems plausible enough that she just took a different route.

Besides, if Marethari was possessed some time ago, why bother heading to the cave and telling Merrill about it? In fact, why bother staying in Sundermount at all? It could've left at any time.

Modifié par bleetman, 28 décembre 2011 - 02:13 .

[jlb524]

bleetman wrote...
Besides, if Marethari was possessed some time ago, why bother heading to the cave and telling Merrill about it? In fact, why bother staying in Sundermount at all? It could've left at any time.

The abomination isn't the demon or Marethari...it's a new entity.

The abomination's motivations won't necessarily equal the demon's or Marethari's.  The demon may have wanted to leave but the demon/Marethari fusion?  Who knows what it's motives were.

[TEWR]

bleetman wrote...

Marethari sets off ahead of Hawke and Merrill if you speak to her before heading up the mountain herself.

Could easily have been the Abomination Marethari trying to trick them and making them think she was still Marethari.

If not, it seems plausible enough that she just took a different route.

The only other route up to where Audacity was stored at was blocked by a landslide, so unless she can fly she couldn't have taken another route up the mountain.

And I think a flying Keeper would be noticed by the clan.

*Remembers Templars not noticing mages*

....maybe not

Besides, if Marethari was possessed some time ago, why bother heading to the cave and telling Merrill about it? In fact, why bother staying in Sundermount at all? It could've left at any time.

Maybe the demon left his socks there?

But if you think about it, it's really quite clear:

1) Merrill goes to statue
2) Merrill senses the demon is no longer in statue
3) Merrill says the demon could only be freed by powerful magic
4) Merrill and Hawke realize the person so against the Eluvian because of the once-present taint, the blood magic used to cleanse the shard, and the trapped demon happens to be a mage
5) Merrill, Hawke, and company warn the clan that the Keeper is an Abomination -- something a blood mage can detect in people through scent -- and then Audacity's plans are messed up.

EDIT: So it makes perfect sense that Marethacity walked up the mountain. Its plans were in jeopardy and it wanted to try and kill Merrill in the cave and also get under her skin by talking about "the demon's plans".

It would probably say that she got possessed and was killed by Hawke and company, and they died from wounds sustained in the battle.

Then it continues on with its nefariously nefarious plans

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 28 décembre 2011 - 05:51 .

[jlb524]

Thinking about this issue has led me to think up my own completely speculative and possibly grossly inaccurate timeline of what happened.

1) Merrill, Marethari, and clan camped at the base of Sundermount because Flemeth directed them to wait there for the amulet.

2) Audacity, trapped in a statue, somehow could still sense the presence of two mages nearby and communicated with them both via dreams. This prompted both Merrill and Marethari to investigate the cave. Marethari decided that the thing in the statue was a demon and should be left alone. Merrill was curious about the visions of ancient Arlathan that the demon showed her and decided to investigate once more on her own (as a result, she learned blood magic so the shard could be finally cleansed of the taint and she could begin studying it in private). At this point in time, I think that if Audacity had plans to possess any of the two mages it was Merrill as she was willing to at least speak with it whereas Marethari's reaction to it was angry and fearful.

3) Eventually, the amulet-bearer (Hawke) shows up and Merrill leaves the camp for good. At this point in time, I believe Marethari wants what is best for her clan and also to keep Merrill safe (I do not deny that Merrill is more important to her than the others and is like a daughter). Her motivations are clear.

4) So a few years pass and we enter Act 2. I think that around this time, the demon decides to go after Marethari instead of Merrill. I'm assuming that Audacity's telepathic link to Marethari is stronger than Merrill's due to proximity. It can sense her fears involving the mirror and Merrill's safety. Therefore, Audacity invades Marethari's dreams again, this time probably sending awful images of a possessed Merrill who's having horrible things done to her, etc. Perhaps it also appealed to her pride ("Only you can save Merrill from my machinations!")...I'd call this "motherly pride" or the idea that she, the mother, knows what's best for her child because she loves them the most.

 I don't think Marethari was possessed as early as Act 2 but I think she was under the influence of the demons "mind screw"...similar to what happened with the companions in the Fade but not as powerful. This is what I use to justify Marethari's odd behaviors in Act 2 onward...being caught under the influence of something like that for years can't be good for one's mental health...but she endured better than most would. So yeah, I don't think she's stupid but is more or less a victim of circumstance (and location).

5) So after years of enduring the demon mind screw, Marethari "decides" (under heavy demonic influence, ofc) that becoming possessed is the best way to solve the issue at hand. I think this happens sometime before Merrill comes back in order to speak with Audacity. I think the reason that the "Marethacity" abomination didn't take off and leave the clan was because the part of it that came from Marethari exerted more influence than the demon expected. Thus, I don't think the partnership worked out exactly how the demon planned (or how Marethari planned...that's typically how these things go...look at Anders/Justice). It's difficult to discuss "Marethacity's" motivations because it's some odd mixture of both Marethari's and Audacity's motivations...and we need to know which side is exerting more influence and when.

6) It's all Flemeth's fault.

Modifié par jlb524, 28 décembre 2011 - 07:13 .

[TEWR]

I lol'd at the ending.

[TMA LIVE]

jlb524 wrote...

They also face plenty of demons and don't ever get possessed.  So, by that logic...it's totally cool!

Except those demons we kill outside the fade have already possess something to cross over, unless they're shades or have been summoned, and need a host in order to survive outside the fade.

Hmm..that could have been an interesting quest...Hawke braving the Fade to save a demon possessed Merrill...ah well.

Hmm... why wasn't the same done about the Keeper? You'd think Merrill would want to save her.

[TEWR]

Merrill probably doesn't know the exact way to perform such a ritual or can't/doesn't want to do it because of what it requires. It either requires: a ****load of mages and lyrium -- which aren't readily available thanks to Meredith the Tyrant -- or someone's blood to be used.

Jowan had to kill Isolde just to give it a shot. I doubt Merrill would want to kill another clan mate to save Marethari, even if they were willing. That's something she said in Fenris' Act II quest that she'd never do, and she's appalled by people sacrificing others to fuel blood magic.

Plus, the clan wouldn't even want to participate in the ritual even if it meant saving Marethari because she's got them so riled up on fear of Merrill they hate her to oblivion.

So it wasn't an option. Especially not when they were forced to fight Marethacity.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 28 décembre 2011 - 10:54 .

[jlb524]

TMA LIVE wrote...

Except those demons we kill outside the fade have already possess something to cross over, unless they're shades or have been summoned, and need a host in order to survive outside the fade.

Like all those rage and pride and desire demons we face in the game...yeah, and plus the shades.

Demons can cross over (if the veil is thin/torn or they are summoned) and 'survive' without a host but it's not the ideal situation for them...they quickly look to possess something (even a corpse).

TMA LIVE wrote...
Hmm... why wasn't the same done about the Keeper? You'd think Merrill would want to save her.

Abomination!Marethari was hostile and trying to kill Merrill and co.

Abomination!Conner was chillaxing upstairs and wasn't all that interested in attacking the Warden.

Merrill didn't have the luxury of time to go and find a way to enter the Fade and cure Marethari....the Warden did.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Merrill probably doesn't know the exact way to perform such a ritual or can't/doesn't want to do it because of what it requires. It either requires: a ****load of mages and lyrium -- which aren't readily available thanks to Meredith the Tyrant -- or someone's blood to be used.

If the Marethacty abomination ran off instead of fighting Merrill and Hawke to the death, I think Merrill could have researched the ritual pretty easily.

About the lyrium, considering Hawke is the Champion of Kirkwall and all that, perhaps she could have gotten some for the ritual?

If not, I'm sure it wouldn't be difficult smuggling some lyrium out of the Circle in Act 3....considering how many Templars are allowing mages to leave the Circle and all that.

Modifié par jlb524, 28 décembre 2011 - 11:52 .

[TMA LIVE]

jlb524 wrote...

Like all those rage and pride and desire demons we face in the game...yeah, and plus the shades.

Demons can cross over (if the veil is thin/torn or they are summoned) and 'survive' without a host but it's not the ideal situation for them...they quickly look to possess something (even a corpse).

They survive by draining minds. "In time, such a demon will learn to drain energy from the psyche of those it encounters, just as it did in the fade.
Once it has drained enough, it has the power to manifest and will
forever after be known as a shade. Such a creature spurns possession."

http://dragonage.wik...ex_entry:_Shade

And "survive" is another quote I got here.

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Demons

Also, just because Merrill and Hawke haven't gotten possessed yet, doesn't mean they're immune to it. They could simply be just as lucky as an arrow not hitting them in the face.

Abomination!Marethari was hostile and trying to kill Merrill and co.

Abomination!Conner was chillaxing upstairs and wasn't all that interested in attacking the Warden.

Merrill didn't have the luxury of time to go and find a way to enter the Fade and cure Marethari....the Warden did.

Uh, no time? What are you talking about? There was no time limit. There was no need to rush. Hawke is rich compared to the Warden.

Are you saying Merrill doesn't want to prepare for anything, because she's too excited?

Are you saying Merrill did not want to make any kind of preparation against anyone getting possessed, besides "Kill me"?

[TEWR]

As I said, the only possible ways to remove a demon from a host involve a ****load of mages and lyrium -- at least 4 or 5, and Meredith made it so that the mages couldn't even take a ****** without being made Tranquil by Act III -- or use blood magic to kill someone.

So yes, there was no way for her to prepare for something like that.

[TEWR]

If the Marethacty abomination ran off instead of fighting Merrill and Hawke to the death, I think Merrill could have researched the ritual pretty easily.

Probably. I always imagined that if the Connor cameo wasn't cut from the game Merrill would ask all sorts of questions regarding his possession and subsequent cure.

You know, considering he blabbed about it to a person he just met.

About the lyrium, considering Hawke is the Champion of Kirkwall and all that, perhaps she could have gotten some for the ritual?

Actually, now that I think about it Hawke does find a lot of lyrium. Some corrupted, some raw, some blue, some polka dot.

If not, I'm sure it wouldn't be difficult smuggling some lyrium out of the Circle in Act 3....considering how many Templars are allowing mages to leave the Circle and all that.

I imagine Hawke could use his connections with Athenril to get some lyrium.

But even with the lyrium the lack of enough mages are a real issue. And then you have to worry about the clan acting all stupid.

[jlb524]

TMA LIVE wrote...
Also, just because Merrill and Hawke haven't gotten possessed yet, doesn't mean they're immune to it. They could simply be just as lucky as an arrow not hitting them in the face.

My original point was that it's also dangerous for Merrill/Hawke to fight all the hordes of bad dudes they typically face...but you are okay with that and not okay with them facing one demon.

You said 'whatevs, they kill people like that all the time.'

I said they face demons all the time to, so I could argue 'whatevs, they kill demons like that all the time.'

TMA LIVE wrote... 
Uh, no time? What are you talking about? There was no time limit. There was no need to rush. Hawke is rich compared to the Warden.

Are you saying Merrill doesn't want to prepare for anything, because she's too excited?

Are you saying Merrill did not want to make any kind of preparation against anyone getting possessed, besides "Kill me"?

Um...no.  The difference between what happened with Merrill and Marethari-abomination vs. the Warden and the Conner-abomination is that the Conner-abomination ran off and didn't try to kill the Warden and co., which gave the Warden and co. time to find lyrium and do the ritual.  (I don't think you can do a ritual like this and fend off an attack by a powerful abomnation at the same time).

Merrill and co. didn't have time to do that as the Marethari-abomination was trying to kill them and not chilling upstairs.  If the Marethari-abomination left the cave instead of attacking, then Merrill would have had time to prepare the ritual (in safety) and go into the Fade.

I'm saying...even if Merrill had the knowledge to do the ritual...and even if she had lyrium...she still couldn't do it because, y'know, Marethari-abomination was trying to rip her head off.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
But even with the lyrium the lack of enough mages are a real issue. And then you have to worry about the clan acting all stupid.

Merrill could have performed the ritual anywhere, so she'd be safe from the clan.

I assume you are worried that someone from the clan would enter the cave and see the ritual being performed and freak out or something.

So if Merrill is doing the ritual, then you'd have to get Anders or Mage!Hawke to enter the Fade.  Perhaps Bethany (since it seems relatively easy to get her out of the Circle for a bit XD)

Modifié par jlb524, 29 décembre 2011 - 01:04 .

[TMA LIVE]

I'm not taking about after Mare got possessed. I'm talking about before. They had time to prepare for such an outcome. There was no hurry.

And about the demons, I mean Hawke and Merrill fight dudes all the time. But they're trying to kill you. Not possess you. And when Hawke and Merrill fight demons, they're either already possessing someone, or trying to possess someone else, or were summon to kill you and not possess you (also, what's the point of possessing someone if the possessed person is going to be killed by a group of people seconds later. Better off fighing till the numbers are down to zero or one). And if they were around and not trying to possess anyone, it's simply because they were not interested in possessing anyone. Like that demon in the deep roads.

And there's a difference between Hawke stabbing some random dude, and Hawke stabbing Merrill. Or are you telling me you feel the same way stabbing Merrill compared to Raining Man number 68? That stabbing Merrill is something you can easily do, and have no problems doing it?

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 29 décembre 2011 - 02:06 .

[FiliusMartis]

There was absolutely no reason to believe Marethari would have invited the demon into her, so there was no logical reason to prepare for that. Merrill was doing research, she was prepared, and she brought Hawke along as an absolute backup in case something went wrong. You know, in case there was something not in her research that could result in her failure.

TMA LIVE wrote...

And there's a difference between Hawke stabbing some random dude, and Hawke stabbing Merrill. Or are you telling me you feel the same way stabbing Merrill compared to Raining Man number 68? That stabbing Merrill is something you can easily do, and have no problems doing it?

In all fairness, I don't think the comparison was between Hawke stabbing some random dude and Hawke stabbing Merrill... it was some random dude stabbing Merrill or Hawke stabbing Merrill. Merrill should be willing to die (and Hawke willing to subject her to the risk) because Hawke wants some treasures but not because of something important to her. That's the argument being made.

[TMA LIVE]

Prepared with what? All she says is she's going to talk to the demon, and if it possesses her, then Hawke should kill her.

Look at it yourself:

http://www.youtube.c...b56zb9FU#t=314s

Yet, I got Jlb here saying they could have done the whole Conner thing if Merrill did get possessed if they prepared for it, but didn't. Why, because. That's the excuse.

And no it ain't some random dude stabbing Merrill, it's you. Hawke. That's what she's bring you to do.

It's ain't some guy trying to kill two people.

It's some guy jumping into someone else's body, and then you kill that person, or they kill you. Big difference. You're killing a possessed friend.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 29 décembre 2011 - 04:09 .

[Knight of Dane]

I don't think Connor's case can be compared to a posessed-Merrill scenario. Irwing or perhaps Jowan? states that it is only because Connor willfully gave himself to the demon that he can be de-posessed. If Merrill would be posessed from the mirrir/The Statue on the mountain/whatever. it would be forcefull and thus irreversible.

[jlb524]

TMA LIVE wrote...
I'm not taking about after Mare got possessed. I'm talking about before. They had time to prepare for such an outcome. There was no hurry.

We don't know if she did or didn't.  My point is..it doesn't matter because there's no way they could have done the ritual with Marethari trying to kill them anyway. That's all I've said...that's why it's a different scenario from the Conner case.

TMA LIVE wrote... 
And about the demons, I mean Hawke and Merrill fight dudes all the time. But they're trying to kill you. Not possess you. And when Hawke and Merrill fight demons, they're either already possessing someone, or trying to possess someone else, or were summon to kill you and not possess you (also, what's the point of possessing someone if the possessed person is going to be killed by a group of people seconds later. Better off fighing till the numbers are down to zero or one). And if they were around and not trying to possess anyone, it's simply because they were not interested in possessing anyone. Like that demon in the deep roads.

Summoned demons don't always obey their summoner (typically they don't)...they can try to possess whatever is near by.

My point still stands...they are facing demons and the risk of possession is always there....and they face a lot of demons.  So your original argument is still suspect.

TMA LIVE wrote...  
And there's a difference between Hawke stabbing some random dude, and Hawke stabbing Merrill. Or are you telling me you feel the same way stabbing Merrill compared to Raining Man number 68? That stabbing Merrill is something you can easily do, and have no problems doing it?

I've never said that. You're trying to twist this discussion into something else.

I'm talking about risks.  Hawke and Merrill going on Adventure number 10303 is risky because a bunch of heavily armed people or dangerous creatures or ancient darkspawn are trying to kill them.  It's likely Merrill could die.  But you're okay with that because?    Because if she dies, at least it wasn't Hawke that killed her?

Also, even if Merrill becomes possessed...Hawke doesn't have to be the one that kills her (bring Fenris along...I'm sure he'd love to do it).

TMA LIVE wrote...
Yet, I got Jlb here saying they could have done the whole Conner thing if Merrill did get possessed if they prepared for it, but didn't. Why, because. That's the excuse.

I've never said that.

Knight of Dane wrote...
I don't think Connor's case can be compared to a posessed-Merrill scenario. Irwing or perhaps Jowan? states that it is only because Connor willfully gave himself to the demon that he can be de-posessed. If Merrill would be posessed from the mirrir/The Statue on the mountain/whatever. it would be forcefull and thus irreversible.

I'm comparing it to a possessed-Marethari scenario (the original discussion was whether or not Marethari could have been saved by Merrill entering the Fade).  Marethari became possessed willingly.

TMA is talking about something else for some reason.

Modifié par jlb524, 29 décembre 2011 - 04:36 .

[Knight of Dane]

Ah, i see.