17176 réponses à ce sujet

[FiliusMartis]

This game does require a bit of imagination and inference on behalf of the player. You don't see everything. There are spans of years that pass where you, the player, see absolutely nothing. You don't really think that your companions sit on their hands do you? No. Anders runs his clinic, Fenris looks for signs of Denarius and/or his sister, Isabela looks for the relic, and Merrill does her research. She doesn't have to sit you down and tell you ever detail of every book she has read for that to be clear.

A side note on the Conner ritual: it was Circle magic. The Dalish and the Circle generally have different practices. Even if Merrill knew about it, I highly doubt she would use it to save herself. She has three choices:
1. Ask Hawke to gather mages and lyrium. Potentially many mages are made tranquil under Meredith's reign for helping, there may even be executions.
2. Ask a mage to do the blood magic ritual. Someone else definitely dies and another person is corrupted by blood magic, they would also die should Meredith find out about that.
3. Have Hawke kill her, choosing to make the ultimate sacrifice in her role as Keeper.

Is Merrill's choice the one that would leave Hawke feeling most warm and fuzzy? Probably not, but it's a legitimate decision.

While we're using Conner as a comparison though, consider his behavior. He is able to seize control when frightened and run away when the demon has the guards attack the warden. If you follow him upstairs at that point but do not enter the bedroom, you can actually have a conversation with him in which he is himself. The point here is that the possessed mage is not always controlled by the demon. Depending on circumstances, the mage may remain somewhat normal while the demon is latent.

[bleetman]

jlb524 wrote...

The abomination isn't the demon or Marethari...it's a new entity.

The abomination's motivations won't necessarily equal the demon's or Marethari's.  The demon may have wanted to leave but the demon/Marethari fusion?  Who knows what it's motives were.

I'm sorry, when did the thing about a possessing demon blending with its host personality rather than subduing it crop up? Because besides Anders mentioning it (which isn't really the same situation, or even really supported by the Anders/Justice stuff we see in DA2), I don't remember it at all. Was it in a book, or such? Have I just forgotten about it?

Modifié par bleetman, 29 décembre 2011 - 12:50 .

[TEWR]

There are three instances of it happening with willing possessions: Connor, Anders, and Marethari.

[Knight of Dane]

And Wynne?

[esper]

Wynne we don't know because we don't know her unpossed... So it is hard to see if she has gotten 'faither' with the spirit.
I would add Evelina as abormination Evelina clearly still cared for the children in a twisted, demonic it is MY children kind of way, also she held a grudge against Hawke that was kind of personal - even if Hawke never met her.

[Fox In The Box]

Uldred at least says something along the lines of; "Uldred? He's gone. I am Uldred and yet not Uldred. I am more than he was." which seems to point to the whole "abomination-as-new-entity" thing as being likely. I can almost swear I read it somewhere, too, but I can't remember where. Though I suppose that's something that varies from abomination to abomination. The whole thing has me a little confused.

Who calls their kid "Uldred", anyway? With a name like that, he was bound to go evil.

Modifié par Fox In The Box, 29 décembre 2011 - 01:35 .

[TEWR]

I wouldn't classify Wynne in that group because the Spirit sort of pulled her back from death and she doesn't really demonstrate anything that points to a whole new entity type of vibe.

It wasn't really a willing possession I think, but it wasn't like it was forced either. I dunno.

And Uldred was a forced possession, not a willing one. So far, the evidence seems to point to willing possessions being the ones where people have a mixture of what the demon and the mage wanted.

Uldred only wanted to be free of the Chantry's reins, but the demon doesn't show any inclination towards having the Circle be declared free of the Chantry. There's no real trace of Uldred left in there anymore.

@Esper: I don't know if Evelina could be classifed in that group. We don't know if she willingly accepted the demon.

[Fox In The Box]

Nevermind me.

Modifié par Fox In The Box, 29 décembre 2011 - 02:14 .

[esper]

Conner possessed also says something about his father, but I don't remember the quete exactly. He does say something like "Are you here to poison father.." with the whole demon voice thing.

edit since this thread moves fast.

I agree. We don't know, but I used Evelina as an example of mixed personality.

Modifié par esper, 29 décembre 2011 - 02:22 .

[bleetman]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

There are three instances of it happening with willing possessions: Connor, Anders, and Marethari.

If that was the case, wouldn't their individual personalities be incapable of presenting themselves? I mean if, say, Connor's personality had blended with whatever-that-desire-demon-was-called, he wouldn't be able to break past it from time to time. There'd be no "him" left. They'd both be one. Same goes for Anders, who despite saying is now combined with Justice as one entity, visibly that isn't the case.

As for Marethari, if her and Audacity were now the same entity, she wouldn't go from 'I had to save you' to 'rarr princess stabitty, stab kill kill' within the space of a couple of minutes.

Modifié par bleetman, 29 décembre 2011 - 02:24 .

[JoeLaTurkey]

Caruso pun alert




*slinks away*

[jlb524]

bleetman wrote...
If that was the case, wouldn't their individual personalities be incapable of presenting themselves? I mean if, say, Connor's personality had blended with whatever-that-desire-demon-was-called, he wouldn't be able to break past it from time to time. There'd be no "him" left. They'd both be one. Same goes for Anders, who despite saying is now combined with Justice as one entity, visibly that isn't the case.

There is no 'pure him' left but part of him went into constructing the abomination...so the abomination possibly has a part of it that cares for Conner's father.

bleetman wrote... 
As for Marethari, if her and Audacity were now the same entity, she wouldn't go from 'I had to save you' to 'rarr princess stabitty, stab kill kill' within the space of a couple of minutes.

The way I see it, an abomination is a mixture of two wills.  I don't expect the resulting 'singular will' to always act in a manner that always makes sense.

[TMA LIVE]

jlb524 wrote...
We don't know if she did or didn't.  My point is..it doesn't matter
because there's no way they could have done the ritual with Marethari
trying to kill them anyway. That's all I've said...that's why it's a
different scenario from the Conner case.

And what if it happened to Merrill? What if it happened to Hawke? What if it happened to anybody?

What was suppose to be done besides kill the possessed person? What was suppose to be done beside "Hopefully it doesn't happen?"

jlb524 wrote...

Summoned demons don't always obey their summoner (typically they don't)...they can try to possess whatever is near by.

My
point still stands...they are facing demons and the risk of possession
is always there....and they face a lot of demons.  So your original
argument is still suspect.

No, you're under suspect. How many times have demons that Hawke fought try to possess Hawke?

Because if you're comparing millions of raining men trying to kill you, and hundreds of demons trying to kill you, to one demon trying to possess Merrill, and maybe one desire demon, then when it comes to danger, you got nothing to prove possession is less or as dangerous as fighting raining men. Because all those times, demons simply were more interested in killing you, then possessing you.

Unlike every other situation, this one we are walking in, and doing NOTHING to prepare for it. Unlike all those other times, where demons just appear on a random adventure, and lucky us, they didn't try to possess us, and more interested in killing us.

jlb524 wrote...
I've never said that. You're trying to twist this discussion into something else.

I'm
talking about risks.  Hawke and Merrill going on Adventure number 10303
is risky because a bunch of heavily armed people or dangerous creatures
or ancient darkspawn are trying to kill them.  It's likely Merrill
could die.  But you're okay with that because?    Because if she dies,
at least it wasn't Hawke that killed her?

Also, even if Merrill
becomes possessed...Hawke doesn't have to be the one that kills her
(bring Fenris along...I'm sure he'd love to do it).

Oh that makes things so much better. Instead of trying trying to find ways to prevent Merrill from getting possessed, just bring someone else to kill her instead of Hawke.

Hawke can try and save her. She takes an arrow, she can be healed by Anders. You can get revived. There's potions and ****.

She get's possessed, she's screwed.

Hawke and Merrill fight bad guys all the time. And good at it.

How many times do we fight Demons trying to possess you? Not much.

How many times do we fight demons trying to kill us? A bunch.

But we still don't really fight many trying to possess us.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 29 décembre 2011 - 04:15 .

[Pride Demon]

TMA LIVE wrote...

Prepared with what? All she says is she's going to talk to the demon, and if it possesses her, then Hawke should kill her.

Look at it yourself:

http://www.youtube.c...b56zb9FU#t=314s

Yet, I got Jlb here saying they could have done the whole Conner thing if Merrill did get possessed if they prepared for it, but didn't. Why, because. That's the excuse.

And no it ain't some random dude stabbing Merrill, it's you. Hawke. That's what she's bring you to do.

It's ain't some guy trying to kill two people.

It's some guy jumping into someone else's body, and then you kill that person, or they kill you. Big difference. You're killing a possessed friend.

The Connor ritual can be performed only on mages who gave themselves willingly to the demon (Irving says so himself), and that's because in that case all the contact happens in the Fade, there is no direct possession, the demon and the mage are still separate entities (at least "spiritually") and in fact Connor sometimes "reemerges", something that is not true for other abominations, however if the demon takes over forcibly (as would have been the case for a "Merril abomination") the two entities merge as one, the spirit fuses with the soul of the mage, the only separation apparently is final death...

So the ritual could probably have been performed on Marethari (who apparently gave herself to him willingly, but we aren't sure of this), but certainly not on Merril, if Audacity overwhelmed her...
It still comes down to the ritual being totally unnecessary in Merril's case and Marethari's actions being a total surprise to everyone...

[thats1evildude]

Delightful pun, JoeLaTurkey.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 29 décembre 2011 - 05:57 .

[jlb524]

TMA LIVE wrote...
And what if it happened to Merrill? What if it happened to Hawke? What if it happened to anybody?

What was suppose to be done besides kill the possessed person? What was suppose to be done beside "Hopefully it doesn't happen?"

The same thing I said with Marethari (if they are possessed willingly)...if the abomination doesn't try to outright kill you and you have to kill it in self-defense, then find a way to enter the Fade to cure them.

TMA LIVE wrote... 
No, you're under suspect. How many times have demons that Hawke fought try to possess Hawke?

I'm talking about the risk of this happening, not if it happened or didn't happen.  Similar to the risk of Hawke getting killed in battle.  

TMA LIVE wrote...  
Oh that makes things so much better. Instead of trying trying to find ways to prevent Merrill from getting possessed, just bring someone else to kill her instead of Hawke.

Well, you are saying it's okay to risk Merrill's life as long as Hawke doesn't have to kill her so...

TMA LIVE wrote...   
Hawke can try and save her. She takes an arrow, she can be healed by Anders. You can get revived. There's potions and ****.

What if Anders isn't there?  What if she's dead before a potion can heal her?  

Other bad things could happen...she could get captured and sold into slavery...etc.

TMA LIVE wrote...    
She get's possessed, she's screwed.

Possession is curable.  Death isn't...unless you're Leliana...zing!

TMA LIVE wrote...     
Hawke and Merrill fight bad guys all the time. And good at it.

How many times do we fight Demons trying to possess you? Not much.

We don't know if they are or aren't....it's not like all demons are going to tell you 'look, I'm trying to posses you.'  ...if they are trying to forcibly possess you at least.

The risk is still there.   When they fight bad guys the risk is still there that they could die even if they are good at it.

 Also, mages are constantly at risk for possession anytime they tap into the Fade.

I seem to be talking about risks and you are talking about what happened or didn't happen...in that case...Merrill didn't actually get possessed so it's all good!

Modifié par jlb524, 29 décembre 2011 - 06:50 .

[TEWR]

I think it depends on how you view the demons that Hawke fights. Tarohne was hellbent on placing demons in people, and was excited at the idea of putting one in Hawke.

So there's one instance.

You could just as easily say that the Abominations and Demons Hawke and company face are indeed trying to possess the party through force. Or for the Abominations, they want to summon demons into the party.

You could also say they aren't and are more interested in killing the party, though for demons this wouldn't make sense considering that they need any type of host in the mortal realm to last there (unless they become Shades). It depends on how you view it.

Also, Merrill might indeed know the Connor ritual, but believes that she wouldn't be able to hold off the demon long enough for the ritual to be enacted and carried out were the worst to occur to her. So that may be why she's asking Hawke to kill her if something happens.

Just because she didn't talk about the ritual doesn't mean she doesn't actually know it.

EDIT: If demons can possess trees, can they possess rocks? I don't mean Rock Wraiths. I mean just a boulder on a mountain.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 29 décembre 2011 - 09:21 .

[Abispa]

If the demons and abominations WERE trying to beat Hawke and company into submission, rather than simply kill them, it would help explain why most were so easy to kill. They're were fighting with one hand tied behind their backs.

[jlb524]

Well, I just thought of something.

Audacity (in statue) is cut off from the Fade.

Is Audacity (in Marethari) also cut off from the Fade? Or did the act of possession somehow restore that?

If that's the case, Jowan's ritual wouldn't work as Audacity isn't in the Fade.

Or am I missing something?

Edit:  also the Arishoked motivational is great...I just forgot to comment it.  Now I need to make sure my mage uses lots of Chain Lighting next time I play that battle.

Modifié par jlb524, 29 décembre 2011 - 10:43 .

[ydaraishy]

jlb524 wrote...

Well, I just thought of something.

Audacity (in statue) is cut off from the Fade.

Is Audacity (in Marethari) also cut off from the Fade? Or did the act of possession somehow restore that?

If that's the case, Jowan's ritual wouldn't work as Audacity isn't in the Fade.

It is?

Is that because it's in a statue or am I forgetting something?

I would argue that possession has to happen through the Fade as opposed to any other direction; one could say Audy's of the Fade but somehow immobile?

[Quething]

jlb524 wrote...

Well, I just thought of something.

Audacity (in statue) is cut off from the Fade.

Is Audacity (in Marethari) also cut off from the Fade? Or did the act of possession somehow restore that?

If that's the case, Jowan's ritual wouldn't work as Audacity isn't in the Fade.

Or am I missing something?

Edit:  also the Arishoked motivational is great...I just forgot to comment it.  Now I need to make sure my mage uses lots of Chain Lighting next time I play that battle.

I wouldn't reccomend it, Qunari have resistance to electricity.

I never got the impression that Audacity-in-the-statue was cut off from the Fade. It can still do things that require the Fade (like communicate with Merrill through dreams or over long distances). It can't escape, but presumably a cage in this world can extend into the Fade easily enough, so that doesn't require it to be stuck here either.

[jlb524]

ydaraishy wrote...

Is that because it's in a statue or am I forgetting something?

I would argue that possession has to happen through the Fade as opposed to any other direction; one could say Audy's of the Fade but somehow immobile?

I think the short story mentions that it's sundered from the Fade.  Plus, Marethari says she couldn't battle it "in the Fade" because it wasn't there.

Merrill does say it will take powerful magic to remove the demon from the statue and put it somewhere else (like, a body).

I think the same thing happened with Justice as well.

Quething wrote...
I wouldn't reccomend it, Qunari have resistance to electricity.

On Nightmare XD

Modifié par jlb524, 30 décembre 2011 - 02:43 .

[ydaraishy]

jlb524 wrote...
I think the short story mentions that it's sundered from the Fade.  Plus, Marethari says she couldn't battle it "in the Fade" because it wasn't there.

Merrill does say it will take powerful magic to remove the demon from the statue and put it somewhere else (like, a body).

Then I'd say your other question about the Fade connection reestablishing is probably true, as mages have that permanent connection to the Fade.

So if it requires a lot of effort to remove the demon, then it must be Marethari's sole doing, then? I don't recall Merrill ever saying that there was a deal for her to release the demon in exchange for blood magics...

[jlb524]

ydaraishy wrote...
So if it requires a lot of effort to remove the demon, then it must be Marethari's sole doing, then? I don't recall Merrill ever saying that there was a deal for her to release the demon in exchange for blood magics...

No, Merrill didn't.

I don't think the demon every received anything from Merrill.

[FiliusMartis]

The demon being sundered from the fade is not in the short story, but that certainly doesn't mean it isn't true since Marethari suggests it in her dialogue. However, a few very interesting things are in the story that haven't been brought up.

First of all, I think it's worth noting that Audacity originally propositions Marethari and doesn't seem to talk to Merrill at all. I believe there is a comment about Audacity knowing Merrill couldn't resist and thus choosing her, but this suggests Marethari was its first choice.

However, far more interesting than this is the fact that when Audacity first reaches out to Merrill and Marethari via dreams they were struck with a "memory of terrible loneliness" so intense that it brought Marethari to tears. Also consider the codex "Demonic Possession" which directly states that the motivations of a pride demon remain unknown. I'm not suggesting Audacity was warm and fuzzy and just wanted to be friends, but after years of being trapped and alone, ruling a small clan of elves might have looked pretty good. Being a pariah who is also extremely lonely probably not so much. Of course, Merrill potentially has Hawke and all, but even if she doesn't, the demon's actions don't change.