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[thats1evildude]

jlb524 wrote...

I don't think Merrill uses magic in public...but associating with shemlens would do it (or dwarves since Varric visits too).

She doesn't need to use magic openly, people just need to believe she's an apostate. There's more than sufficient fodder for a rumour mill.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 03 janvier 2012 - 06:38 .

[Abispa]

Are you saying that only Alienage Elves are smart enough to figure out that a little girl carrying a FRIGGIN' HUGE ASS STAFF just might be an apostate? Thank the Maker most of the Templars are dumb humans.

[thats1evildude]

No. I'm saying that gossip runs like wildfire in a small neighbourhood, and it wouldn't take much for the other elves in the Alienage to conclude that Merrill was an apostate.

[Abispa]

Just to clarify, I was joking about the game, not mocking you.

[thats1evildude]

I didn't take it as an insult.

As to why the templars don't notice Merrill, I'll throw out several reasons:

1) She's just a face in the crowd. Any oddities in her clothing and appearance can be chalked up to the fact that she's a Dalish elf. Even my Warrior Hawke didn't realize at first that Merrill was a mage, and he has an apostate sibling.

2) To some extent, the templars do rely on the general populace informing them about the mages in their midst. While the elves of the Alienage may avoid Merrill, neither are they keen to turn one of their own into the templars.

3) Ironically, the templars in Kirkwall spend so much effort on policing the mages in their care that they end up turning a blind eye to the apostates and blood mages operating within Kirkwall. Being the main military force in the city only divides their resources further.

But of course, all this stuff has been bandied about before.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 04 janvier 2012 - 12:01 .

[Quething]

A staff is a common weapon for a peasant. Relatively easy to learn, incredibly cheap to acquire (you can make one in an afternoon with a free dead tree and a sharp knife, while a sword & armor costs more than your whole village will earn in a decade). Doubles as a walking stick, a tent prop, and a pole for poking unstable ground or recalcitrant pigs. Requires basically the same training as a spear or other polearm (like a hayfork) that would be the only other cheap weapon for a peasant to have. Gandalf didn't carry one because staves are inherently ~magic~ but because it's the kind of weapon that every non-warrior who wants a weapon would end up with.

An elf with a staff over her shoulder is odd, but only because city elves aren't supposed to have weapons. Hawke with a staff over her shoulder is only odd if she joined the Red Iron, and even then, it's not odd if it's the Staff of Parth or one of those tree-branch ones like Marethari rocks with the giant-ass blade on the end.

The problem is not that mages carry them, it's that other characters don't. (And that warriors can't use them and there are no spears or polearms in the game at all but y'know, etc etc.)

[Abispa]

Quething wrote...

A staff is a common weapon for a peasant. Relatively easy to learn, incredibly cheap to acquire (you can make one in an afternoon with a free dead tree and a sharp knife, while a sword & armor costs more than your whole village will earn in a decade). Doubles as a walking stick, a tent prop, and a pole for poking unstable ground or recalcitrant pigs. Requires basically the same training as a spear or other polearm (like a hayfork) that would be the only other cheap weapon for a peasant to have. Gandalf didn't carry one because staves are inherently ~magic~ but because it's the kind of weapon that every non-warrior who wants a weapon would end up with.

An elf with a staff over her shoulder is odd, but only because city elves aren't supposed to have weapons. Hawke with a staff over her shoulder is only odd if she joined the Red Iron, and even then, it's not odd if it's the Staff of Parth or one of those tree-branch ones like Marethari rocks with the giant-ass blade on the end.

The problem is not that mages carry them, it's that other characters don't. (And that warriors can't use them and there are no spears or polearms in the game at all but y'know, etc etc.)

I agree with everything you say. I would also say that the CLOTHING mages wear is also a dead give away. Bethany and Hawke can dress up like... um... well... "normal" people, but every other mage's clothing is distinctly mage. Well, Merrill's and Anders' clothing may be different enough to confuse the issue, but still.

The one thing I prefer about DA:O's non-iconic look characters is that you could dress up your party in pretty "normal" looking armor (even Morrigan and the other mages), so there was a visual reason that nobody notices them whem they were walking around Denerim.

[TEWR]

thats1evildude wrote...



1) Merrill's generally shy, softspoken nature

That would make them pricks for doing that to her then.

....I can see that.

2) She's an apostate. People caught harbouring an apostate can be punished. And if the templar is particularly zealous, the definition of "harbouring" could be stretched to include anyone who had dealings with an apostate and didn't turn them in.

There's never really any evidence for the Elves in the Alienage to think that she might be an apostate.

I mean, unless people peer out their windows and see her hurling fireballs in the shape of griffons at the gangs during the night, there's really nothing to indicate it to them.

*makes mental note to have Merrill throw a fireball that takes the shape of a griffon in his DAII fanfic.*

3) She associates with shemlen (ie. Hawke). While most elves have to work for the shems out of necessity, they don't generally be-friend them.

Hawke can be -- but isn't necessarily always -- the person that executed a man who had raped a dozen -- maybe more -- Elven girls.

So I would think that with Lia's father's testimony to what Hawke did they'd want to associate with Merrill and Hawke even more.

[Quething]

The other thing about DA:O was that not only could mages wear armor, warriors could wear robes. Those Chasind robes you get from the Cache in the Wilds, with the high +defense, I always had Sten wear those for three or four levels, because it took forever to find him good armor. It worked fine, they looked like the kind of thing a warrior from a low-tech hunter-gatherer society might wear. Morrigan's clothes just looked like clothes, albeit not the sort of thing you'd wear in a cold swamp (hooray for fanservice, I guess?). Circle robes looked like mage robes, but they were, after all, the uniform of an organization. (And it didn't matter too much anyway since Circle mages had sanction to leave the Circle with the Warden and didn't have to be afraid to advertise.)

In DA2, there's that one shirt and pants that look like a shirt and pants, and Champion armor's not bad but of course everyone knows you're a mage by then anyway. But even that shirt and pants are unmistakable as anything but mage gear. Because nobody but a mage could even wear them if they tried. (Well, unless you build your character completely stupidly, but that doesn't help because then you have a warrior who can't fight effectively and you're just sacrificing verisimilitude somewhere else.)

Merrill's outfits are actually the best for that in either game IMO. Practical (apart from the weird lack of shoes), culturally-appropriate, and drawn from what she would have reason to own and want to wear rather than some out-of-game concept like character class or player sex appeal.

[Abispa]

I still want to know how she wound up wearing the Elven prostitute outfit in the love scenes! I mean, I KNOW she could probably use the money to fix all the holes in her house...

[Quething]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

I always found it weird that Merrill's shiny white full-body armour gave less protection than Isabela's outfit.

Well, it's like she tells Sebastian. The shinier you are, the easier a target you make. So some of the protective properties are cancelled out by its beacon-y aim assist properties.

(I do think her B armor makes more sense with a darker retexture. Something in earthtones or autumn colors. Not sure what they were thinking with the blazing white, or why Seb doesn't point it out when she's ragging on him about his far more subdued white plate.)

[ydaraishy]

Abispa wrote...

I still want to know how she wound up wearing the Elven prostitute outfit in the love scenes! I mean, I KNOW she could probably use the money to fix all the holes in her house...

You have seen the race concept art for DA2, haven't you? 

It's elven underwear, not really a "prostitute outfit"

That being said, I wonder why the elves are so intent on covering themselves up so much underwearwise...

[thats1evildude]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

That would make them pricks for doing that to her then.

....I can see that.

I know from personal experience that people tend to mistake shyness for haughtiness.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

There's never really any evidence for the Elves in the Alienage to think that she might be an apostate.

Doesn't need to be hard evidence. People just need to think she's an apostate. Merrill consults with demons, tinkers with magic mirrors and runs around Kirkwall with a magic staff equipped to her back — sooner or later, one of her neighbours would notice there's something odd about her. 

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Hawke can be -- but isn't necessarily always -- the person that executed a man who had raped a dozen -- maybe more -- Elven girls.

So I would think that with Lia's father's testimony to what Hawke did they'd want to associate with Merrill and Hawke even more.

Still a shemlen. Still a Fereldan shemlen. And we all know how much the Kirkwallers hate the Fereldan refugees.

[TEWR]

thats1evildude wrote...

I know from personal experience that people tend to mistake shyness for haughtiness.

Yea I can kinda see that happening considering she's Dalish and the general conception about the Dalish is that they show scorn towards City Elves.

Which while true for some Dalish, isn't true for all of them.

Doesn't need to be hard evidence. People just need to think she's an apostate. Merrill consults with demons, tinkers with magic mirrors and runs around Kirkwall with a magic staff equipped to her back — sooner or later, one of her neighbours would notice there's something odd about her. 

Well the populus doesn't know she's working on an Eluvian. That's an element that the Elves have forgotten about the Elven culture. Even Ariane's clan didn't know what it was.

There was a codex about how more and more of their culture is forgotten by each new generation. To them, she'd just be working on a mirror.

Regarding Audacity, she had been working on the Eluvian without consulting him when she arrived. By Act III, she had used up all of her non-demon associated resources that she did have to rely on him.

also, didn't a codex or something say that the Alienage Elves all consider themselves one big family that looks out for one another?

Still a shemlen. Still a Fereldan shemlen. And we all know how much the Kirkwallers hate the Fereldan refugees.

True. IIRC the Elves in Darktown are disdainful towards Hawke even if he killed Kelder.

[Gervaise]

With regard to Merrill's underwear, I always though it looked out of place on a Dalish elf and I assumed that because the elves in the brothel wore that type of underwear, it was associated with elven prostitutes, which is why concept art showed elves like that, not because it was the type of underwear that ordinary alienage elves would use. It did sort of spoil the moment for me because I kept thinking "why is Merrill dressed like a prostitute?" In the end I had to assume that she had been getting fashion advice from Isabella!

[thats1evildude]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

also, didn't a codex or something say that the Alienage Elves all consider themselves one big family that looks out for one another?

As a CE warden, I can safely say that's a giant load of crap. <_<

The city elves are just as small-minded and petty as humans. After Arl Howe led a purge of the Alienage, poor Soris became a pariah because everyone blamed him for bringing down the wrath of the shemlen. It didn't matter that he was just trying to rescue his bride by breaking into Vaughan's estate. My Warden would have gotten the same treatment, but everyone thought he was dead.

I love the elves, but Maker, they can be bloody stupid.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 04 janvier 2012 - 09:14 .

[jlb524]

Gervaise wrote...
With regard to Merrill's underwear, I always though it looked out of place on a Dalish elf and I assumed that because the elves in the brothel wore that type of underwear, it was associated with elven prostitutes, which is why concept art showed elves like that, not because it was the type of underwear that ordinary alienage elves would use. It did sort of spoil the moment for me because I kept thinking "why is Merrill dressed like a prostitute?" In the end I had to assume that she had been getting fashion advice from Isabella!

But Isabela surely isn't wearing the 'elven prostitute' swimwear underneath her clothing XD

Quething wrote...

(I do think her B armor makes more sense with a darker retexture. Something in earthtones or autumn colors. Not sure what they were thinking with the blazing white, or why Seb doesn't point it out when she's ragging on him about his far more subdued white plate.)

I retex it to black and red because...blood mage!

*no wait, I just like black*

Modifié par jlb524, 04 janvier 2012 - 08:48 .

[Wulfram]

There's probably not much underwear that's made for elves that isn't strictly utilitarian or made for prostitutes.

edit:  Merrills not a rogue, she's allowed to be shiny.  Though the white is rather virginal for an appearance which is unlocked by sleeping with someone.

Modifié par Wulfram, 04 janvier 2012 - 08:58 .

[jlb524]

I just noticed this is page '666'.

I find that humorous for some reason.

[thats1evildude]

jlb524 wrote...

I just noticed this is page '666'.

I find that humorous for some reason.

Well, this is a thread devoted to a blood mage who consorts with demons. 

[TEWR]

Although by some accounts 616 is the actual number and 666 is just what's commonly believed to be the number.

and now I have a sudden urge to listen to Iron Maiden.

thats1evildude wrote...

As a CE warden, I can safely say that's a giant load of crap. 

The city elves are just as small-minded and petty as humans. After Arl Howe led a purge of the Alienage, poor Soris became a pariah because everyone blamed him for bringing down the wrath of the shemlen. It didn't matter that he was just trying to rescue his bride by breaking into Vaughan's estate. My Warden would have gotten the same treatment, but everyone thought he was dead.

I love the elves, but Maker, they can be bloody stupid.

Huh... I've never done the City Elf origin before. Well, I've done the origin, but only up to Ostagar. Then I stopped.

And I agree that the elves can be stupid. I mean, just look at everything the Sabrae clan did after Merrill left

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 04 janvier 2012 - 10:47 .

[Abispa]

One of the things I love about Dragon Age is that the Elves are just another race, not the superior demigods of LotR. God, nothing makes me happier than the scene at the end of the Twin Towers where the hero looks around at all the dead Elves. It kinda made me wish that the Orcs had machine guns.

True, the Dalish can talk down to "Shemlen," but in Dragon Age it feels more like arrogance or bitterness (much of which is justified). than the "holier than thou" patronizing of the LotR Elves.

While trying VERY HARD to finish one of my MANY characters I've created in DA:O, I was reminded of the many intriguing possible insights into Arlathan's Elven culture that the arcane warrior spirit provided, especially the part where the spirit was... ahem... "unsure" who was the original aggressor in the war between humans and Elves, as well as the existence of a third race who the humans and Elves also warred with.

Modifié par Abispa, 05 janvier 2012 - 02:38 .

[ydaraishy]

jlb524 wrote...

I just noticed this is page '666'.

I find that humorous for some reason.

I was going to make this observation too, but I was thinking of the absence of any known numerical associations with the Fade or anything like that and decided not to

[jlb524]

Abispa wrote...
One of the things I love about Dragon Age is that the Elves are just another race, not the superior demigods of LotR. God, nothing makes me happier than the scene at the end of the Twin Towers where the hero looks around at all the dead Elves. It kinda made me wish that the Orcs had machine guns.

True, the Dalish can talk down to "Shemlen," but in Dragon Age it feels more like arrogance or bitterness (much of which is justified). than the "holier than thou" patronizing of the LotR Elves.

While trying VERY HARD to finish one of my MANY characters I've created in DA:O, I was reminded of the many intriguing possible insights into Arlathan's Elven culture that the arcane warrior spirit provided, especially the part where the spirit was... ahem... "unsure" who was the original aggressor in the war between humans and Elves, as well as the existence of a third race who the humans and Elves also warred with.

I am really interested where they will take the elves and elven issues (like their unknown history) in the future of the series.

I'm not sure if we will get much of that in the next installment, though.